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Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
"How do we get more thigh without changing the outfit?"
"Simple, remove six inches from her lower legs and add it above the knee!"

Thanks for that illustration, appreciated.

Also note the lower part of the outfit is actually more open in the new version, indeed for that "more thigh" effect. The golden rim on the front and back, uh, "cloths / skirts" (I'm sure they have a proper name :P) is thicker and joined together closer to the waist: new Lyn gets no such courtesy.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Also note the lower part of the outfit is actually more open in the new version, indeed for that "more thigh" effect. The golden rim on the front and back, uh, "cloths / skirts" (I'm sure they have a proper name :P) is thicker and joined together closer to the waist: new Lyn gets no such courtesy.
True. But Weltall, she's sewn up the sleeves, it's a wash, right? :D

Pigeon toes pointing inwards, too, not a great stance for a swordswoman unless she's got some reason to present as much leg to the camera as possible. I wonder why...
 

wasa-b

Banned
Jan 9, 2018
47
Kamurocho
It doesn't matter if there's no difference in roles of the MCs of FE. We are talking about designs and how women so often being designed to look more childlike or cute or whatever the intent is behind bigger googly eyes is a problem, no matter if she's actually a 500 000 year old dragon who rules the whole fucking world.
I was purely discussing design and author's style, the intent behind is what sparked the conversation.

Gotta admit, didn't expect this much hostility.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
I was purely discussing design and author's style, the intent behind is what sparked the conversation.

Gotta admit, didn't expect this much hostility.
Dear beelzebub. Have we now gotten to the point where we are being too mean to you when you refuse to acknowledge any legit points made to you? You act like "that's just the way he/she draws them" is a good defense. It's not.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
I came across this on a friend's facebook feed and I think it's a sobering reminder of just how foreign *actual* sexualization of male characters is to us in mainstream media. The idea of something like this appearing in a AAA game is absolutely bonkers.

54523066_2237169159875840_5597182619730051072_n.jpg
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
I came across this on a friend's facebook feed and I think it's a sobering reminder of just how foreign *actual* sexualization of male characters is to us in mainstream media. The idea of something like this appearing in a AAA game is absolutely bonkers.

54523066_2237169159875840_5597182619730051072_n.jpg

The tight ass shirt is fine but the ball hugger shorts got to go. Unless I get a taunt where im able to shift my sack around than we are all good.

But seriously short shorts on a dude are mad uncomfortable ( coming from a dude who wore those till puberty because my mom has terrible fashion sense)
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
To illustrate the issue with Lyn, I made a comparison image, with both designs at the exact same height side to side:
5EhW7TN.png


Left is classic, right is new. Note the huge head size difference, beyond the obvious bust size increase and "crossed arms boob tray" pose. It's hilarious because as you scroll down, they seem to be in entirely different sizes / zoom levels, until you scroll past the legs.

Edit: Here's a crop of the top part of the image to better see what I mean:

dBHxXWx.png

Two things. They outlined her boobs for no reason. Lyn is a bit busty already so it was no need for the extra detail.

Can someone tell me what the fuck is up with Japan and having women be pidegon toed. I'm so fucking lost seeing it everywhere even with women who are warriors.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
The tight ass shirt is fine but the ball hugger shorts got to go. Unless I get a taunt where im able to shift my sack around than we are all good.

But seriously short shorts on a dude are mad uncomfortable ( coming from a dude who wore those till puberty because my mom has terrible fashion sense)
I'm not sure I understand the relevance. Do you think high heels and metal thongs are comfortable?
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
Can anyone speak to the treatment of women in Dead Rising 1? I remember being interested in the games when I was younger and would play some today but i've seen a few videos that give me a really bad impression on how women are portrayed in there

There's an achievement called "Frank The Pimp" for escorting multiple women survivors at a time, yeah.

Only one female character is semi-treated well, the rest are stereotypes/eye-candy.

I'd still suggest playing it though purely for the gameplay.

Two things. They outlined her boobs for no reason. Lyn is a bit busty already so it was no need for the extra detail.

Can someone tell me what the fuck is up with Japan and having women be pidegon toed. I'm so fucking lost seeing it everywhere even with women who are warriors.

Apparently they think it makes characters look cute :/
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
I'm not sure I understand the relevance. Do you think high heels and metal thongs are comfortable?
Im not sure ive ever played a game with a metal thong but heels are stupid for action scenes unless your riding a horse than your fine.

I'm just saying a pair of nut huggers on dude doesnt make him a sex object.

We need to find new ways though because default way to make a Video game dude appeal to women is take his shirt off and put him in tight jeans.

Its a basic ratio of how much you want to see the guys fit body to do actually eant to see the dick through the clothes.
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
There's an achievement called "Frank The Pimp" for escorting multiple women survivors at a time, yeah.

Only one female character is semi-treated well, the rest are stereotypes/eye-candy.

I'd still suggest playing it though purely for the gameplay.



Apparently they think it makes characters look cute :/

Well thats just fucking stupid. I got to read up on this because its so dumb
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
Im not sure ive ever played a game with a metal thong but heels are stupid for action scenes unless your riding a horse than your fine.

I'm just saying a pair of nut huggers on dude doesnt make him a sex object.

We need to find new ways though because default way to make a Video game dude appeal to women is take his shirt off and put him in tight jeans.

Its a basic ratio of how much you want to see the guys fit body to do actually eant to see the dick through the clothes.
Let's get a few things straight:

1) the idea that you've never played a game with metal things is incredibly unlikely. Furthermore it doesn't really matter because this isn't about you. This is about the sexualization of women and metal thongs are a long-standing staple of the tradition.

2) There are men that wear short shorts and nut huggers. You do not get to decide whether they are comfortable or uncomfortable for other people.

3) Shorts that outline penis/nuts and framing the shot to emphasize that is absolutely sexual objectification.

4) This isn't even about appealing to women. This is about the differences in standards that we have for women and men when it comes to sexualization and objectification. The idea that there's even a concerted effort to make video game characters appeal to women is laughable. There is barely a "default" to speak of.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Oh, so my point was reduced to "she draws them"? Great. Good that I have gotten so many legit points like, "big eyes make her incompetent and immature" in a medium known for big eyes. Or maybe the legit one was that the artist contributes to the sexualization of younger girls?
You literally said you don't think there is anything wrong with the bigger eyes on the fem MC "because that's the way she always draws them". That's about one of the laziest & worst defenses of these types of things. Something isn't beyond criticism just because that's the way it has always been done or because others do it too. And absolutely no one has made any argument that FE Houses fem MC is some kind of sexualized child. Clearly they were talking more generally about the combination of big eyes (which IS infantilizing to some degree or the other) and sexualization that too often go hand in hand as just an example of where child-like big eyes go too far (though with convenient examples from the awful FE heroes to show that Fire Emblem as a franchise isn't beyond that kind of creepy stuff).

Bringing the whole medium into this is silly as well. In a lot manga/anime it's not just women who have big eyes and in a lot of others big eyes are reserved for actual child characters. It's not to differentiate women from men but it's an actual age difference thing. The reason why it's worth pointing out & criticizing in FE Houses is because they do differentiate between the man and the woman even when they are essentially supposed to be the same person.


That's really mature.
nofunallowed.jpg
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
Let's get a few things straight:

1) the idea that you've never played a game with metal things is incredibly unlikely. Furthermore it doesn't really matter because this isn't about you. This is about the sexualization of women and metal thongs are a long-standing staple of the tradition.

2) There are men that wear short shorts and nut huggers. You do not get to decide whether they are comfortable or uncomfortable for other people.

3) Shorts that outline penis/nuts and framing the shot to emphasize that is absolutely sexual objectification.

4) This isn't even about appealing to women. This is about the differences in standards that we have for women and men when it comes to sexualization and objectification. The idea that there's even a concerted effort to make video game characters appeal to women is laughable. There is barely a "default" to speak of.

1. I literally cant think of a game ive played that had a women with a metal thong outside of 1 that took me awhile to remember and that was dragons crown for the vita. Thats the only metal thong I can even think of.

2. I guess there something for everyone.

3. Your outline the penis not the nuts becauer the penis lays in front more often than not . if not wr usually got for the readjustment.

4. I think its because men and women have different thinhs arousing. Like Dante and Vergil have a large female fan base mostly because of the white hair and the voices.

Chris redfield has a large gay and female fan base because they show his body off in alternate costumes and they like his arms.

It's just not something thats gonna get fixed basically costume swapping girls with dudes.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Oh, so my point was reduced to "she draws them"? Great.

What was your point if not "she just draws that way" peppered with a healthy dose of mansplaining / weebsplaining?

Good that I have gotten so many legit points like, "big eyes make her incompetent and immature" in a medium known for big eyes.

Big eyes are a child-like characteristic. Like, this is biology 101. The point is not just that she has big eyes, the point is that they're twice the size of literally the same character as a male.

Or maybe the legit one was that the artist contributes to the sexualization of younger girls?

I thought it was already explained to you that infantilization is a problem orthogonal to sexualization, and that either can exist in separate axes or overlap? Why, yes, it was!

That's really mature.

Wow, you sure showed him!

Edit: For fuck's sake, I really need to get into the habit of checking post counts before wasting time replying. >_<
 

How About No

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,785
The Great Dairy State
This eye/size and infantilization talk is reminding me a lot of how they changed Phos' appearance and attitude after some significant events in Land of the Lustrous

9b189bd698dea1b62aa6db3ad33fc3f7.png


And they absolutely used this to signify they have a new outlook and is a generally more mature person
 

Dragmire

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,122
It's weird because to me the female version has a neutral expression and the male version looks like a dude who's trying too hard to look serious.
Well that too. I was also commenting on the face design as well, but the discussion so far has already done a better job of pointing out the issues in their difference.

Anyway, there has already been a lot of discussion on how female characters of FFXV are presented, and honestly it's the last thing I want to bring up. BUT once again SE needs to REMIND US how bad it is:



Here's FFXV's latest female character. She appears in Episode Ardyn Prologue and will also appear in the DLC. We see in the anime how Ardyn was betrayed by his brother and rejected by the gods. You'd think that would be enough to set Ardyn on his path of vengeance. Guess what happens to her?

And on International Women's Day they released this:

A nice fun art piece that captures the essence of some of the good about FFXV, while also reminding us on how women are presented in this game:
d1jkxxiwoaaqau5h75j7c.jpg

It's nice to see an old series still be successful for SE, but between this game and now KH3, it's just so tiring to see a major company like SE keep falling back to the same shit when it comes to representing women.

some context of the statue:
Japanese officials, striving to achieve rapid modernization of that country in the wake of the Meiji Restoration, were especially intrigued by Clark's work.[2] In 1876, the Japanese government hired Clark as a foreign advisor to establish the Sapporo Agricultural College (SAC), now Hokkaido University. During his eight months in Sapporo, Clark successfully organized SAC, had a significant impact on the scientific and economic development of the island of Hokkaido, and made a lasting imprint on Japanese culture. Clark's visage overlooks Sapporo from several statues and his parting words to his Japanese students, "Boys, be ambitious!"(「少年よ大志を抱け Shounen yo, taishi o idake」) have become a nationally known motto in Japan
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
This eye/size and infantilization talk is reminding me a lot of how they changed Phos' appearance and attitude after some significant events in Land of the Lustrous

9b189bd698dea1b62aa6db3ad33fc3f7.png


And they absolutely used this to signify they have a new outlook and is a generally more mature person

I wouldn't have guessed they were the same person. What's most hilarious to me is how, besides the eye / hair, they also removed one of the most common "cutesy signifiers" in anime: they grew a nose. :D
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
1. I literally cant think of a game ive played that had a women with a metal thong outside of 1 that took me awhile to remember and that was dragons crown for the vita. Thats the only metal thong I can even think of.
You still dont get it. I'll say it again. This isnt about you. Regardless of how many metal thongs you can summon to your mind from games you've played, it's a longstanding staple of male nerd culture. I shouldnt need to give you examples for you to take it seriously.

2. I guess there something for everyone.

3. Your outline the penis not the nuts becauer the penis lays in front more often than not . if not wr usually got for the readjustment.
No idea why you're trying to litigate sexualization of penis outlines. Also I found your phrasing a bit confusing so I'm not sure what the second sentence is about.

4. I think its because men and women have different thinhs arousing. Like Dante and Vergil have a large female fan base mostly because of the white hair and the voices.

Chris redfield has a large gay and female fan base because they show his body off in alternate costumes and they like his arms.
Regardless of what men and women find arousing, men are not sexualized the way that women are. It's not because of what women find arousing, it's because of what men arent comfortable with, and the lack of women actually designing/writing these kinds of things.

It's just not something thats gonna get fixed basically costume swapping girls with dudes.
The outfit in that picture is not a female outfit on a male character. It is a male outfit, and the fact that it's so sexualized that you dont even recognize it as anything other than a female outfit drives my point home perfectly. Not sure what you're missing.
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
You still dont get it. I'll say it again. This isnt about you. Regardless of how many metal thongs you can summon to your mind from games you've played, it's a longstanding staple of male nerd culture. I shouldnt need to give you examples for you to take it seriously.


No idea why you're trying to litigate sexualization of penis outlines. Also I found your phrasing a bit confusing so I'm not sure what the second sentence is about.


Regardless of what men and women find arousing, men are not sexualized the way that women are. It's not because of what women find arousing, it's because of what men arent comfortable with, and the lack of women actually designing/writing these kinds of things.


The outfit in that picture is not a female outfit on a male character. It is a male outfit, and the fact that it's so sexualized that you dont even recognize it as anything other than a female outfit drives my point home perfectly. Not sure what you're missing.

The outfit in the picture is pretty ovacative of old school Lara drifts design. Thigh holsters, T shirt, nut huggers. It reminds of OG Lara
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,320
It's accurate to the show and Land of the Lustrous generally. Characters that are typically seen as "more mature" tend to have eyes that are reflective of that in some way (narrower, smaller, less open irises).

Not that I think using eyes to represent age is all that great in the first place, but in animation large eyes are definitely an infantilizing feature. Though I do think it's worth mentioning that infantilization is different from sexualization (and they're each their own ball of wax, despite feeding off of the problems each inherits from the other).
 
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Deleted member 8001

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,440
unknown.png


What do y'all think of my charracter here? (Not my drawing but the character is mine and I had this commissioned).

She's an adult, has a midriff but that's really cause it's hot where I live! (Texas).
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,472
Whew I'm back... this thread exploded like 3 pages while I was gone O_o
The tight ass shirt is fine but the ball hugger shorts got to go. Unless I get a taunt where im able to shift my sack around than we are all good.

But seriously short shorts on a dude are mad uncomfortable ( coming from a dude who wore those till puberty because my mom has terrible fashion sense)
You mean a typical "fanservice"-type of sexualized outfit wouldn't be comfortable to wear IRL? No way!

:P

Im not sure ive ever played a game with a metal thong but heels are stupid for action scenes unless your riding a horse than your fine.
And yet both are incredibly common staples of female sexualization. That they are stupid and uncomfortable is precisely one of the reasons we hate them...
I'm just saying a pair of nut huggers on dude doesnt make him a sex object.
...Of course it does...

lol really...
Sure could've fooled me. That looks like a little girl, early teens at the most.
 

Gun Dog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
504
There are huge die hard fans of Phantasy Star in here and like the way the series is going forward
/s
and so I figure y'all would like this:

Gene is one of the main protagonists from PSO2es and is featured in other PS games
Default
Gene-in-Idola.jpg


Law
Low-Gene-2.jpg


Chaos
Chaos-Gene.jpg
 

Deleted member 8001

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,440
Titania is a good character yes. However you have to keep note that the style of the artist that drew this was more anime than what you are showing. Fire Emblem is like a more mature kind of setting whereas anime is cartoonish with weird proportions such as the head.

From the references I gave the artist it should've came out more "sharper" I suppose? But either way I was satisfied with the result.

Perhaps my character would look more like this with a different artist.

230
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
There are huge die hard fans of Phantasy Star in here and like the way the series is going forward
/s
and so I figure y'all would like this:

Gene is one of the main protagonists from PSO2es and is featured in other PS games
Default
Gene-in-Idola.jpg


Law
Low-Gene-2.jpg


Chaos
Chaos-Gene.jpg

They always say "it will get worse before it gets better", but the truth is that it's been getting worse and worse and yet even worse, so consistently and for so long, that at this point I'm not sure there is such a thing as a rock bottom that they can't or won't dig further down.
 

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
I'd chill with the disrespect to the artist. Criticisms are fine but no need to do that tbh.
I'm not disrespecting your artist. It's clear that they want to draw a pervy childish illustration. You don't accidentally make an adult look prepubescent. And if that's what the artist wants to draw, that's what they want to draw. It's up to you to decide if you want this perv representing you or not.
 

Deleted member 8001

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,440
I'm not disrespecting your artist. It's clear that they want to draw a pervy childish illustration. You don't accidentally make an adult look prepubescent. And if that's what the artist wants to draw, that's what they want to draw. It's up to you to decide if you want this perv representing you or not.
Absolutely ridiculous. I'll end this conversation here.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,472
nothing about this says adult. Not the clothing, not the body proportions, not the oversized eyes, not the lack of age lines, not the childish face she's making, not the youthful haircut. Her hips, maybe, but literally everything else says preteen or early teens.
I'll add the pigeon toes posture to this.
 

Foot

Member
Mar 10, 2019
10,999
I definitely prefer the version with a full shirt. That's a fairly basic design with no needless sexualization. It's all right. However, given that the character is meant to be an adult the various signifiers of youth are a problem, as they are not getting that message across in the slightest.
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
In addition to all the criticism already posted the art style is pretty bad. If you ask me what a generic anime character would look like that character is what I would picture.
 
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