Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

Richter1887

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,248
Oof, I must of have missed this thread.

It just kept getting worse and worse. Just why the hell can't someone understand that you can like a thing yet be critical of bad parts of it? It would only result in a better product anyway. This fanboy shit is stupid.

Smash Ultimate itself is problematic due to the disgusting black character representation (seriously how in the hell do you greenlight black characters being represented by the apes???).

And then you have this shit. Whenever you hear people talk about this site, they would make it out to be this very progressive website (which I feel is kind of true because of the excellent moderation) but there are plenty of members who clearly don't care about these issues.

Sorry to hear about your thread Kinsei .
 

SapphiCine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
813
No matter how much we like to pretend otherwise, it's still basically just NeoGAF with a purple skin.
Yep. This was always going to be NG 2.0. Seeing women I respected on that site in positions of power here hasn't changed too much. It's partly a matter of the userbase. Old style social media platforms like this aren't going to attract enough women. As long as the site is dominated by men, there's no hope.
 

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,321
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
I really hate this fucking site.
Many people like to put their head in the sand when it comes to things they like, unfortunately. It makes them feel put on the spot, and accused of being bad people. They need to realise that it's not about them though. It's about putting a spotlight on bad elements so they can improve, which will never happen if we ignore it, or making excuses. If we let it go, it'll turn into background noise, or some type of lovable zany quirk these creators have.

I have this exact issue with Hideo Kojima. We were finally getting somewhere with him after a career full of blatant misogynist shit, but then he quit his job and somehow gained a celebrated underdog status in the process. Now he can name characters MAMA and FRAGILE again and people pretend this shit exists in a vacuum. We have to give him the benefit of the doubt, like the fucker didn't make a P&C adventure game where you can "interact" with every female character's chest, or how this Japanese David Cage didn't make Quiet and told us we'd be ashamed of questioning her depiction, or countless other examples. We're even further back than square one now, since it's part of his wacky persona. I don't want that type of normalisation to happen to Persona. It can and should improve.

I’m going to be the outlier here (please bear with me). All the comments in this thread focus on the hostility and shitty responses that you received. Which is absolutely true and they are NOT okay.

However, I truly believe your thread is a prime example of living in a bubble. The conclusion of your thread is reaching, the title invites hostility and the arguments presented were vaguely related to one another (= so PS5 must be very homophobic because DQ is released on the system etc.).

Most who would agree with you are already involved and passionate about the topic. I’m seriously getting worried with some of the topics/threads being created on Era. They are giving us a certain image of being whiny and nitpicking all the time. We briefly discussed how this thread/forum alienates certain women from engaging any further. These kind of topics are also similar in nature.

What is the point of creating such threads? Aren’t they to raise awareness, understanding and acceptance? These topics are sensitive by nature and need to be handled with tact by default unless you only want an echo chamber to agree with your annoyances.

I don’t want us to be known as ‘that place’.
I get where you're coming from, but we already were "that place" from the start, and honestly the thread was a fair observation. If you're going out of your way to not support certain things, and you buy a season pass of something else, I'd also be disappointed if suddenly you were indirectly supporting those boycotted elements after all.

You're not wrong though. If these threads survive the original onslaught of whining, they become echo chambers so easily, and ultimately become more about venting than anything else. I'm not sure how you'd present these messages to a wider audience though, when they are being primed to recognise and reject it by so many bad actors out there.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
Oh no. Oh no no no no no.

Cyberpunk 2077
Yeah, it's disgusting. I still can't believe this will be our new Cyberpunk game. It's like the devlopers saw the setting and bypassed all the messages and the point of Cyberpunk. (and yes, I know the original writer for Cyberpunk is a part of the game. Still doesn't excuse how this game seems to miss all the messages of cyberpunk for the aesthetic of cyberpunk)

There was actually a thread about it earlier. It went about as well as you'd expect.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Okay, I’m officially dumb. I see the bulge but I’m not understanding the problem? Please understand, I’m just totally clueless here, and don’t understand. Can someone please explain?
CDPR has a history of handling trans women , and cross dressing very very very very poorly both in terms of writing and in how they handle their queer fans on social media ...
So for the time being people kind of want CDPR to just steer clear from those topics because well they are more than insulting frankly .

And like I said the lady in the trailer is a tanswoman that's part of the lore of the table top RPG in the first place ...
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
Okay, I’m officially dumb. I see the bulge but I’m not understanding the problem? Please understand, I’m just totally clueless here, and don’t understand. Can someone please explain?
The visible penis + ad tagline + Energy Drink being named after the Minotaur + CD Project past history with transphobia = people being very worried at least.
 

fertygo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,540
Okay, I’m officially dumb. I see the bulge but I’m not understanding the problem? Please understand, I’m just totally clueless here, and don’t understand. Can someone please explain?
You saw Bulge. You saw "mix it up" slogan.. to be honest I see it as neutral entity that can be analyzed further because the setting with technology freedom et cetera blablabla.. but I dont want to give CDPR benefit of doubt and at surface level its already feel tasteless.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,363
We currently lack in game context for the ad. People are riled because they feel cdpr has to be fucking up somehow given their past transgressions and until we actually achieve clarity, they aren’t gonna get the benefit of the doubt
 

fertygo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,540
We currently lack in game context for the ad. People are riled because they feel cdpr has to be fucking up somehow given their past transgressions and until we actually achieve clarity, they aren’t gonna get the benefit of the doubt
Idk what in-game context that could justify it.

Its a futuristic fictional ad.

What that can made it feel positive is if the entire game itself is a godsend super positive about trans subject.
 

misho8723

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,229
Slovakia
CDPR has a history of handling trans women , and cross dressing very very very very poorly both in terms of writing and in how they handle their queer fans on social media ...
So for the time being people kind of want CDPR to just steer clear from those topics because well they are more than insulting frankly .

And like I said the lady in the trailer is a tanswoman that's part of the lore of the table top RPG in the first place ...
Wait, by the cross dressing being written poorly you mean Elihal? If so, I don't see any problem with his character - one of the nicest characters in the Witcher world (atleast in TW3), one of the most likeable characters in the game and the conversation with him was funny, but not because he was the butt of the joke, Dandelion was + Elihal had the best line about Radovid in the whole game.. how can you see a problem with his character and writing, I really don't know.. I mean, his fashion sense was not that good, but other than that, I don't know
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
misho8723 Lots of both trans women , non binary people and intersex such as myself have a problem with Elihal's writing it has beenn discussed in articles to death already . The writing is problematic for several reasons and it often (but not only ) boils down to the following:
to make a long story short is Elihal just a crossdresser , or a transwoman , or a non binary person or intersex . And the writing of the dialogues want you to fill in the gaps by straight up dodging the question altogether .
That and other moments of the dialogues between Geralt and Elihal where it's Geralts lines that are called into question .

If you want a full breakdown coming from each side there are articles out there . So yes Elihal was poorly handled .
 

misho8723

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,229
Slovakia
misho8723 Lots of both trans women , non binary people and intersex such as myself have a problem with Elihal's writing it has beenn discussed in articles to death already . The writing is problematic for several reasons and it often (but not only ) boils down to the following:
to make a long story short is Elihal just a crossdresser , or a transwoman , or a non binary person or intersex . And the writing of the dialogues want you to fill in the gaps by straight up dodging the question altogether .
That and other moments of the dialogues between Geralt and Elihal where it's Geralts lines that are called into question .

If you want a full breakdown coming from each side there are articles out there . So yes Elihal was poorly handled .
Can you link some articles about this? I want to read about this issue because to this day I only read praises about the hunter in the game, which was outcast out of his village because he loved a man who was killed (son of a rich villager? I hope I remember this right) and about Elihal.. I mean what question about him do you want to be answered? Because he says that he just likes to dress as a woman, so you know from that who he is and even then, Geralt only said to him that he isn't someone who he was expecting to be, because from the books and games we know that Dandelion sleeps only with women and Elihal is mentioned in a paper where Dandelion's recent lovers should be and this is probably the first time in Geralt's life that he encounter some crossdresser - apart from theater actors and such - and that's why he acts at first so awkward (but doesn't joke about his crossdressing, judges him or laughs at him or anything in that sort) and after the answer that Elihal gives to Geralt, Geralt basically only wants to know what happened to Dandelion.. Geralt never asks something really privat if that doesn't have directly to do with his tasks or his contracts.. did you wanted him to refer to himself non-binary? I didn't even knew about the backstory of the homosexual hunter, because if you choose a different question when you are with him, he doesn't even mentions why he lives so far from the village and what happened to him.. and I mean, that's great.. I didn't know him as "that gay hunter" but as a hunter - people are always talking about that that your sexuality, sexual preferences, gender, etc. shouldn't determine your character, shouldn't be your specifics.. so there it is.. but on the other hand, most people know him because he is probably the only gay character in the game, so..
I found only one article that refers to Elihal and his encounter with Geralt and it says this:

"Things get a bit more interesting when you locate Elihal, which to your confusion is a male elven tailor who owns and operates his own shop. Geralt mentions that he was expecting one of Dandelion’s girlfriends, to which Elihal tells Geralt to wait as he leaves and returns… dressed as a woman. Turns out Elihal is a cross-dresser who likes to take on alternate personas for the thrill of it."
"Needless to say, this is quite the twist and goes against your expectations. While wisely not played for flagrant laughs, it does throw Geralt off guard, and the humor comes from his subtly awkward reaction.
Should you choose to, he clumsily pries into how the two met, which makes for an amusing anecdote. It’s a surprise turn that isn’t treated as a huge deal, being equal parts delicate and funny, which is the best possible way it could’ve been handled."

Some people have problem with his dialog option, that is something the lines of "Ok, but I don't need to hear the rest" (about what Elihal and Dandelion did after their long conversation) and that that's out of character for Geralt.. really? He has basically the same response as with anyone who want to talk about sex with him (maybe apart from Yennefer, yet even with her he isn't in his shoes when it comes to this things) - he has even in the main game some scenes where someone wants to go into details about something sexual, and Geralt is "Yeah, yeah, enough.. I know too much details already"

And this is an pretty interesting article about Mislav, the hunter: Mislav the Hunter: How The Witcher 3 Handles Diversity

But as I said before, if you have some links to those articles and can please send them to me I would be very thankful :)
 
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TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
If you don't see how saying "I just like to dress as a woman" doesn't answer the question then before you read upon Elihal's writing you have some major reading to do about the differences between us and the life exepriences of transwomen , non binary and intersex and cross dressers and what does overlap and what doesn't ...
 

misho8723

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,229
Slovakia
If you don't see how saying "I just like to dress as a woman" doesn't answer the question then before you read upon Elihal's writing you have some major reading to do about the differences between us and the life exepriences of transwomen , non binary and intersex and cross dressers and what does overlap and what doesn't ...
Ok, so what is that question?
BTW Elihal says the reason why he/she likes to dress as a woman
+ this is a answer from one of the writers of TW3:
 
It starting to sound like Cyberpunk 2077 problems are starting to surface with some latest impressions, and it not just the poster but with how the V character interacts with people of color. It sad to see a studio with all the money in the world still used tried stereotypes.

The most I can add to the CDPR depiction of Trans characters is to get it right is to have a writer who is Trans or have the writer get help and learn from a Trans expert. It the same thing with why we argue about the problems with women designs in games is cause they are design by men (either giving ideas to an artist or the artist themselves) with not input from a women. You can't just read from a wiki about Trans designs and behavior you need to actually work with them to get it right.
 
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Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,353
It starting to sound like Cyberpunk 2077 problems are starting to surface with some latest impressions, and it not just the poster but with how the V character interacts with people of color. It sad to see a studio with all the money in the world still used tried stereotypes.
All the money in the world cannot buy you perspective. CDPR is a Polish company in the end, from a xenophobic as hell country with no racial diversity to speak of. Of course, I don't mean to insult any progressive Polish members here, being part Polish myself.
 
All the money in the world cannot buy you perspective. CDPR is a Polish company in the end, from a xenophobic as hell country with no racial diversity to speak of. Of course, I don't mean to insult any progressive Polish members here, being part Polish myself.
Yeah, it is very much the environment that influence these either mistakes or bad behavior.
 

Linkark07

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
All the money in the world cannot buy you perspective. CDPR is a Polish company in the end, from a xenophobic as hell country with no racial diversity to speak of. Of course, I don't mean to insult any progressive Polish members here, being part Polish myself.
I think it also depends if the person writing wants to write stereotype characters or real characters. I live also in a backward country, dominated by the disgusting catholic and evangelical churches, and despite that, I have written some LGBTQ+ characters in my stories, including some transsexual characters. Whenever I have doubts, I search in the internet and investigate more to write them as real people, not caricatures.
 
I think it also depends if the person writing wants to write stereotype characters or real characters. I live also in a backward country, dominated by the disgusting catholic and evangelical churches, and despite that, I have written some LGBTQ+ characters in my stories, including some transsexual characters. Whenever I have doubts, I search in the internet and investigate more to write them as real people, not caricatures.
Yeah but you and many others are rare compare to the missteps that other companies fall into.
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,353
I think it also depends if the person writing wants to write stereotype characters or real characters. I live also in a backward country, dominated by the disgusting catholic and evangelical churches, and despite that, I have written some LGBTQ+ characters in my stories, including some transsexual characters. Whenever I have doubts, I search in the internet and investigate more to write them as real people, not caricatures.
Of course, but you seem to be of progressive mind to begin with and likely made an effort to expose yourself to the subject matter. If we consider a homogenous and/or backwards country as a whole on the other hand, it simply is more likely that whoever helms the writing will end up being someone that is not interested in or able to portray minority groups and queer folk in a respectful manner. Furthermore, there likely will not be anyone to criticize them on said portrayals during the writing process. In an environment like that, getting a product with good, thoughtful representation of anything not considered the norm is highely unprobable.
 
Of course, but you seem to be of progressive mind to begin with and likely made an effort to expose yourself to the subject matter. If we consider a homogenous and/or backwards country as a whole on the other hand, it simply is more likely that whoever helms the writing will end up being someone that is not interested in or able to portray minority groups and queer folk in a respectful manner. Furthermore, there likely will not be anyone to criticize them on said portrayals during the writing process. In an environment like that, getting a product with good, thoughtful representation of anything not considered the norm is highely unprobable.
Yeah, it the reason teams need to be diverse is for checks.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
Real glad that some defenders of Cyberpunk 2077 are going to Outrage Culture and diminishing the transphobia as "someone said something stupid" as defenses to the game.

And by glad I mean eyeroll inducing.
 

Linkark07

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
Of course, but you seem to be of progressive mind to begin with and likely made an effort to expose yourself to the subject matter. If we consider a homogenous and/or backwards country as a whole on the other hand, it simply is more likely that whoever helms the writing will end up being someone that is not interested in or able to portray minority groups and queer folk in a respectful manner. Furthermore, there likely will not be anyone to criticize them on said portrayals during the writing process. In an environment like that, getting a product with good, thoughtful representation of anything not considered the norm is highely unprobable.
Completely agree with you. In fact, if there are progressive writers in there and they try to portray minority groups or queer folk in a positive manner, they might get called out by their bosses and complain. Personally, I don't have too many hopes for these countries.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Personally even though I do know that there are queer people working for CDPR I also hear the ambiance on the job isn't in any way shape or form conducive to have a calm and level headed conversation about those subjects . And also although I'm of the mindset that "there's no such a thing as perfect representation , there is thoughtfull representation and then there is not caring and no there is no inbetween , you either cared and listened or you didn't" CDPR fucked up so beyong measure in the past I really would rather see them stay away from those topics for the next decade.

Sorry not sorry but their track reccord is already way to heavy and they need a penance walk for me to give them the benefit of the doubt again .
 

Choppasmith

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,578
Beaumont, CA
CDPR has a history of handling trans women , and cross dressing very very very very poorly both in terms of writing and in how they handle their queer fans on social media ...
So for the time being people kind of want CDPR to just steer clear from those topics because well they are more than insulting frankly .

And like I said the lady in the trailer is a tanswoman that's part of the lore of the table top RPG in the first place ...
The visible penis + ad tagline + Energy Drink being named after the Minotaur + CD Project past history with transphobia = people being very worried at least.
You saw Bulge. You saw "mix it up" slogan.. to be honest I see it as neutral entity that can be analyzed further because the setting with technology freedom et cetera blablabla.. but I dont want to give CDPR benefit of doubt and at surface level its already feel tasteless.
Okay, thanks for the explanation and apologies for the awkward question.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Okay, thanks for the explanation and apologies for the awkward question.
No reason to appologize you didn't knew you asked what's the reason people are feeling a certain way , and once you received the answer you didn't act all defensive as if you were personnaly attacked. In other words you did all of the right things and none of the wrong things . Keep it up and keep on rockin mate .
 

Kinsei

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,108
Oh hey, you can wear a much better outfit than the default in the new FE game.

 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
REJOICE AND GLORIOUS DAY FOR OUR PRAYERS HAS BEEN ANSWERED!



CAVALIER WOMEN HAVE ACTUAL ARMOR FOR THEIR LEGS!
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
REJOICE AND GLORIOUS DAY FOR OUR PRAYERS HAS BEEN ANSWERED!



CAVALIER WOMEN HAVE ACTUAL ARMOR FOR THEIR LEGS!
Sensible leg armor , a breast plate that's not vaccum sealed on her boobs ...
Well okay then , now for the million dollar question
"Is this design the base outfit or an unlockable alt ?"
Yeah sorry not sorry game studios but if you want to be told "Good you're finally listening took you long enough" then this costume needs to be the base canonical one .
 
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Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
Sensible leg armor , a breast plate that's not vaccum sealed on her boobs ...
Well okay then , now for the million dollar question
"Is the base outfit or an unlockable alt ?"
Yeah sorry not sorry game devs but if you want to be told "Good you're finally listening took you long enough" then this costume needs to be the base canonical one .
Not base outfit, but every character will change depending on the class. Eldeguard's default is this btw (first is pre-time skip, second is 5 years later)



Annoyingly she still wears heels but at least we can class change them (which is usually better anyways given how these games go).
 

Kinsei

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,108
Hm? That gameplay demo should have eased all fears of the game (multi-episode nonsense aside). Graphics and battle system look top notch.
That boss looked way too spongy for me and I'm not fond of the entire first part being limited to Midgar.
Sensible leg armor , a breast plate that's not vaccum sealed on her boobs ...
Well okay then , now for the million dollar question
"Is this design the base outfit or an unlockable alt ?"
Yeah sorry not sorry game studioq but if you want to be told "Good you're finally listening took you long enough" then this costume needs to be the base canonical one .
That's the cavalier outfit which means it's what she'll wear if you make her a cavalier. both her default outfits look good too.
 

spiritfox

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,415
Technically it's the Armored Knight outfit. Cavaliers do wear pants too, but they have boobplates.



Edit: We saw archers in the Treehouse demo and they have miniskirts and ZR though.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Okay thanks for the answers . Yeah the clothing don't seem to be too too out there , yet they couldn't help themselves they "had" to put her in heels.
Fairly short heels thankfully but still heels nonetheless .
Let's call that "baby steps" ?

Edit : and with spiritfox 's precision I just saw that I was right to be doubtfull .
FFS when will the boobplate finaly fucking die already ...
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
Okay thanks for the answers . Yeah the clothing don't seem to be too too out there , yet they couldn't help themselves they "had" to put her in heels.
Fairly short heels thankfully but still heels nonetheless .
Let's call that "baby steps" ?

Edit : and with spiritfox 's precision I just saw that I was right to be doubtfull .
FFS when will the boobplate finaly fucking die already ...
It's really a shame because the Gamecube/Wii FE games had great designs



Still had heels but everything else made her one of the standout character designs of that era.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
It's really a shame because the Gamecube/Wii FE games had great designs



Still had heels but everything else made her one of the standout character designs of that era.
Pssst if you hold dear the integrity of your breastbone you may not want to be wearing that chest plate while facing my fellow female fencers during club hours I'm just saying ...

In other words that design is cool looking but it's still the artist trying to bake his cake and fuck it too ... It's still trying to highlight her boobs just in a non boobplate way , but just by surrounding the boobline with the chest plate . So okay the designer avoided the structural integrity criticism ... by throwing Him/hersefl in the "do you want your kinghts to all drown in their own blood at the first claymore bash ? What the fuck are you doing rib cages and breast bones will be bursting left and right on the battlefield with that nonesne!!!!" criticism pit here ...
 
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TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
They were lessened in her Radiant Dawn design.
That's some normal fencing boots here indeed that heel is sensical because it's not slim it fully fleshed one that actually does raise up the talon at a sensible height while having it firmly laying flat because that heel is a good ol flat boot heel the way it should be .

That chest plate desing is miles better than the first drawing shared , but it's still stupidly short once again the artist is still desperately kicking and flailing to still "outline the hills" but hey at least she doesn't wear a breast bone piercing one now . So yay progress ...
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
Just FYI, the artist for the Gamecube/Wii games is a woman. It doesn't neglect the criticism of course but just want to let you know.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Just FYI, the artist for the Gamecube/Wii games is a woman. It doesn't neglect the criticism of course but just want to let you know.
Indeed it doesn't on the other hand thanks for the precision at least now I know which pronoun to use .
Still I can see between the two drawings other massive improvements in her character design in other parts of the armor . Sooo I guess she was "lorded over" by some horndog that kept asking to "outline the hills at least" (or whatever gross euphemism that may work in your native language folks come on you know what I mean right now ) but she kept fighitng the good fight but everytime it all boiled down too , Mister Horndog being big mad that the boobs are not visible enough ...