Aria is my favorite anime of all time and I'd recommend it to anyone.
Heartcatch Precure is also pretty great!
Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."
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Heartcatch Precure is also pretty great!
These mostly echo my thoughts on the matter. Anime is in a very unique situation and has been stuck in a feedback loop of sorts for at least the last two decades, since the audience for it in Japan has shrunk considerably. (I do want to point out the same isn't true for manga and light novels, which are much more accessible/mainstream mediums in Japan.) Anime on home video is a luxury good in Japan, just look up how much the cost of a single volume is for even the most recent PreCure (a series that is marketed to young girls for broadcast). The industry largely lives off of diehard fans (of all genders) and mostly serves as advertising for much more profitable ventures i.e. manga, light novels, merchandising, (mobile) games, etc. Then then there's the matter of industry talent being a feedback loop as well, since the people that enter the industry (which has inhumane labor practices that make the video game industry blush) are largely the same people that love what already exists. I'm getting long winded here but my point is that anime has unique problems pertaining to sexism and misogyny that are a result of its circumstances. There are exceptions but the industry is largely turning out products that target existing audiences, which compounds problems.
You think so? I feel like there's more and more variety in anime every year. It's like there's a hundred different shows for a hundred different people all the time.
I'm not reading your spoiler bit since I'm still relatively early and don't want to spoil myself on a game I'm enjoying right now, but I did want to clarify if it wasn't clear when I was talking about aspects of this game positively earlier in the thread today: I am very early on and definitely do not have a full scope of everything this game is going to do narratively, so I hope people take my opinions earlier with somewhat of a grain of salt.
I don't think the video game industry, or at least the AAA video game industry in Japan is actually all that different. It is worth noting that while the age of people playing video games everywhere else in the world (including Korea and China) has aged up considerably, this is not the case in Japan. The average age of people playing video games in Japan is around 18 years old today (which is technically creeping upwards from an average age of 15 or 16 ten years ago) and the majority of players are young males.
At the same time, many of the people who were bigger creatives in video games in the 90s also left in significant quantities as video games became much more corporate and pushed out smaller developers and publishers. Smaller and mid-size developers and publishers comprise a far smaller portion of the market in Japan than in other countries. This also happened in anime, but significantly more so after the bubble of the late 80s. By contrast, the game market contracted after the end of the PSX era, as mega successes such as Final Fantasy VII caused massive consolidation of game companies as competitors were bought up and largely wrung out (similar to what EA has been doing for an even longer time). That consolidation has caused a lot of stagnation in the Japanese game market, and the tropes and designs of the PS2 era became extremely well-established as more mega-successes occurred during the era. Stagnation was an issue that stemmed from the bubble in the 80s and that fear has resulted in an extremely consistent market, but it is a market built upon exploitation of what was popular, and it continues to be successful (especially so in gacha games). Due to the fear of another economic bubble, the video game market has largely remained unchanged and unchallenged since the early to mid-2000s, and in some ways has gotten worse as the market continues to become more concentrated and less inclusive.
The only thing that has shaken up the industry in a significant way since then was Demon's Souls, and the resulting Souls series. But so far it's only happened once, and was (and is) treated more as a fluke than a marketable series of products. As a result, the industry has remained largely unchanged from well more than a decade ago, and in some ways has become more regressive as it markets to an ever shrinking, but aggressively spending, market.
I never said every anime is targeting the same people, though a point I should have added to my post is that the industry caters to niche audiences with productions often aiming to appeal to one or more. I'm not 100% in the loop for the most recent trends, but I do acknowledge there have been attempts to grow the audience size for anime in Japan with some degree of success. (KyoAni circa K-On! instantly comes to mind.) However, the majority of the industry is still targeting preexisting audiences which I want to stress again, for clarity, includes more than men. Even with Western/globally focused companies like Crunchyroll (which is in the process of being bought by Aniplex/Funimation) joining production committees, we still get misogynistic shit like Rising of the Shield Hero. Though on the flipside Crunchyroll also helps produce Laid-Back Camp which I would say targets a more general audience relative to anime in the same vein as K-On!.
I feel that something that doesn't get stressed enough is how niche anime generally is in Japan, even though there are big outliers like Demon Slayer (though that's a popular manga), Evangelion, and films that target a less traditional audience. Eh, I'm starting to get into the TV/movie anime production divide which I feel even less knowledgeable to speak about.
I'm sorry for asking here, but i'm sure it's here where i'm going to get what i'm actually looking for.
I want to ask... Is Laid-back camp good?
Good as in... relaxing and clean
Soon i'll get a two week long holidays, i've been asking for anime recommendations elsewhere, but everyone recommends the same shit (wich i know in advance since i'm an avid manga reader) and i'm under such stress that i just want relaxing, clean and generally wholesome material to clean my tired brain.
I have already booked time for Horimiya, but i'm in the fence with Laid-back camp. I usually enjoy romcoms, slice of life and overall relaxing animes, if Laid-back camp fits in any of those categories, i'm in.
I want to ask... Is Laid-back camp good?
Good as in... relaxing and clean
Soon i'll get a two week long holidays, i've been asking for anime recommendations elsewhere, but everyone recommends the same shit (wich i know in advance since i'm an avid manga reader) and i'm under such stress that i just want relaxing, clean and generally wholesome material to clean my tired brain.
I have already booked time for Horimiya, but i'm in the fence with Laid-back camp. I usually enjoy romcoms, slice of life and overall relaxing animes, if Laid-back camp fits in any of those categories, i'm in.
It's good, a very relaxing and cozy show. It does have some unfortunate fanservice via the occasional bath/hot springs scene (and one of the girls being the obligatory busty one), but it's tame by anime standards. Still unfortunate.
So it isn't 100% clean... Oh well, if it doesn't get overly pervy i'm fine with it, i just need some relaxing anime to unwind. God, this is being an awfully tiring period, the teachers have been going overboard right since we got back from christmas.
Thanks! I'll add it to my list.
No problem. To be honest, it's kinda hard to talk about Gnosia while being sure I'm not spoiling anyone due to the nonlinear nature of the game's story.
I'm taking a break from it for now because I reached a part that's a bit frustrating from a gameplay standpoint.
...Huh. I've only seen bits and pieces of the show on Twitter and such, but I was under the impression the main characters were kids.
Yeah, seems like the main characters are kids, which shouldn't be an issue if there's no problematic scenes in it. From my observations, it's one of those "cute girls doing cute things" show. There's a VR game coming out of the anime, which looks like a chill and cozy.
But personally, I'd rather watch the live action drama. It's even getting a 2nd season.
But personally, I'd rather watch the live action drama. It's even getting a 2nd season.
They are high schoolers, not that it makes the occasional fanservice better.
Such an odd concept for a game, though I guess it's better to play as one of them rather than being some voyeur. Plus it's made primarily for VR.
M'bad. Don't know how that stuff happens, fucking drafts.
Oh my god you guys T_T
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Feminist Discussion of Anime and Manga |OT| Not your waifu OT
This is largely going to be a thread where people can discuss feminist theory of anime and manga as well as recommend ones that you believe show positive feminism. First let's briefly go over feminist theory. What is Feminist Theory? Feminist theory covers a broad range of topics, but for this...
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We finally get a TRB and it's that. 😂 This is partly on me for not going through with one I had in mind.
OP
OP
I found this a bit uncomfortable to read. It is not just who does the work but also who gets the credit for doing the work. The explanation felt like a girl did the hard work of detection and set up, while the boy got the spotlight for being the hero. It uncomfortably resembles the real life phenomenon where women are expected to be in a support role, while men lead and get the credit.
Please allow me to first illustrate the problem with a game (Gujian 3) that I thought about presenting as a counterexample to one (of many) post that implied only western games are making progress on sexism--but ultimately decided against doing so. Hopefully this shows that I am not picking on Danganronpa (and allows me to advertise the game a bit). Then, I will explain why I think the issue applies to Danganronpa.
Illustrating example
This is Yun Wuyue, the female lead of Gujian 3.
Yun Wuyue's age is not just a number like the thousand year dragon trope. She is by far the most experienced of the group. When the crew arrives at a new location, she is usually the one who explains the history behind the location and its importance. And the explanation is often woven organically into a conversation with Cen Ying--hence her archaeological study. She has a history with several of the major villains, or at least know each other by mutual reputation. When the crew needs a new magic or formula, she is the one familiar with it.
Yun Wuyue is not just a walking exposition character. You can observe the difference in her abilities and those of the other party members in gameplay and cutscenes. Whereas Beiluo needs to jump around and swing his sword wildly, Yun Wuyue flies, teleports, and casts magic. In the brief segment where you control her, the difference is remarkable: She turns into black mist and seamlessly rushes from rooftops to streets in a second. And when she finds the villain of the arc, she has a calm conversation with him while setting up a magic circle to trap him. Beiluo, by contrast, is introduced running around town and getting into a street brawl with a few thugs. It leaves me with the distinct impression of "why am I controlling this loser swordsman instead of that cool mage?"
The difference is also reflected in their demeanor. Yun Wuyue is calm, subdued in movement, and generally has a course of action in mind--not always the best but generally good given the circumstances. Beiluo is essentially a 300 year old rebellious teenager who got dragged (kicking and screaming) from his wandering because his brother's death required him to succeed the throne. Cen Ying is, of course, a 16 year old student.
There is a lot going for Yun Wuyue--if you are a fan of aesthetic of giving the bishounen and pretty girl touch to semi-realistic graphics (like Final Fantasy, and to a lesser extent, Tekken) and want a game with fewer problems than Final Fantasy. But as whole, I thought it fell short. Gujian 3 is a story about immortal spirits descending on the mortal real to fight evil. Yu Wuyue is much more competent at this than Beiluo in every sense, but he is the protagonist and the star of the series. Why? Because he is the young heir, and she is his guide. The game provides a justification for the question, but it still treads uncomfortably close to the idea that women, no matter how competent, are only for the supporting roles. This is why I ultimately decided against recommending the game.
Application to Danganronpa
I think Kyoko from Danganronpa suffers from a similar problem. In real life, Kyoko would be the detective, and Makoto would be the prosecutor. These are complementary roles with different skill sets, and both the game and you seem to imply a similar bifurcation. I do not think it works. This is partly the fault the mystery genre's conventions and partly the fault of constraints of gameplay.
The first problem is that the mystery genre generally does not require a prosecutor. In real life, prosecutors are needed because the evidence the detective collects tend to be messy, the defense's evidence makes it often messier, and the culprit may not be any suspect in the detective's file at all. The finder of facts are a judge, a panel of judges, or a jury who go into the case with their own bias and will interpret the evidence in light of their own experiences. The prosecutor's role is to organize the information and present them to the finder of facts in a coherent manner, sometimes appealing to their prejudices and emotions to get the desired result.
By contrast, the mystery genre abstracts away these difficulties. The culprit is in the room somewhere, and the finders of fact are surprisingly rational people who can interpret the evidence objectively. Hence, the mystery genre treats the detective's presentation as the end of the matter. The prosecutor is superfluous. Makoto, as the prosecutor, falls into this trap of the genre's conventions.
The second problem are the constraints of gameplay.
Kyoko is written as the all-knowing detective who figures everything out quickly and sets the cast up for success. As an interactive medium, the game essentially has to put the player in the place of the player character. It is essentially impossible to write a convincing mystery where the player is supposed to be the all-knowing detective and is privy to the same information and deductions as she is. That means Danganronpa cannot let the player be Kyoko.
This leaves Danganronpa with the unenviable role of writing a mystery where the player character has to figure it out, but a supporting character already has everything figured out and is always there to help him succeed. There are reasons Danganronpa ran into the problem of having a much more competent girl support and cede the spotlight to a boy, but that does not change the existence of the problem.
This leaves Danganronpa with the unenviable role of writing a mystery where the player character has to figure it out, but a supporting character already has everything figured out and is always there to help him succeed. There are reasons Danganronpa ran into the problem of having a much more competent girl support and cede the spotlight to a boy, but that does not change the existence of the problem.
There are solutions. The first solution is a corollary of RecLib's rule: Avoid having someone like Kyoko in the cast, so we do not have the problem of the smartest detective sitting on the side and letting the bumbling player figure it out. A second solution is to make Makoto a girl (or give the player a choice of gender), so at least Kyoko is not supporting a boy. A third solution is to make Makoto the Ultimate Prosecutor, Ultimate Orator, Ultimate Salesman, Ultimate Preacher, Ultimate Kindergarten Teacher, or something to suggest that he is particularly good at organizing and presenting information. This changes the character dynamic so that they have complementary roles--in contrast to the actual game, where Kyoko seems to be just better than Makoto in overlapping roles.
Danganronpa does not do any of these. It uncomfortably reminded me of the real life dynamics where a really competent woman has her work credited to a less competent man, or where the woman is expected to relegate herself to a support role despite her skill. I agree that there are positives here: Kyoko is a highly competent woman. Certainly the result is better than some alternatives, like if Sayaka were the female lead, and Makoto has to save her by his lonesome through his unlikely skills of detection like the game initially leads you to believe. I hope I am not being too harsh on the game, but it is a bit questionable in this regard.
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Early FF7R thoughts, but of the 3 characters i've gotten to try in combat Cloud feels the most satisfying to play and that's a little unfortunate in a "hey I'd like to play as the women" way. I'm hoping I'll like Aerith's playstyle, or Tifa's playstyle will feel better when I unlock more abilities.
But right now Cloud kind of just feels like the total package. All of his mechanics are really satisfying. Punisher vs Operator mode, the cool counter attacks in punisher, putting out a quick focused thrust the moment you put an enemy into pressured, Triple Slash to take out crowds. Its good to play as him. When I play Tifa I usually spend a long while building up her mechanic where you spend ap to strengthen here triangle attack, only to whiff the triangle attack on enemies that are too mobile.
I agree a lot with your post here. I hadn't even considered the way Kyoko falls into the whole trap of the woman sitting on the sidelines and letting the man take credit for all of her work.
But right now Cloud kind of just feels like the total package. All of his mechanics are really satisfying. Punisher vs Operator mode, the cool counter attacks in punisher, putting out a quick focused thrust the moment you put an enemy into pressured, Triple Slash to take out crowds. Its good to play as him. When I play Tifa I usually spend a long while building up her mechanic where you spend ap to strengthen here triangle attack, only to whiff the triangle attack on enemies that are too mobile.
I found this a bit uncomfortable to read. It is not just who does the work but also who gets the credit for doing the work. The explanation felt like a girl did the hard work of detection and set up, while the boy got the spotlight for being the hero. It uncomfortably resembles the real life phenomenon where women are expected to be in a support role, while men lead and get the credit.
Please allow me to first illustrate the problem with a game (Gujian 3) that I thought about presenting as a counterexample to one (of many) post that implied only western games are making progress on sexism--but ultimately decided against doing so. Hopefully this shows that I am not picking on Danganronpa (and allows me to advertise the game a bit). Then, I will explain why I think the issue applies to Danganronpa.
Illustrating example
This is Yun Wuyue, the female lead of Gujian 3.
She is a 4000 year old spirit of darkness and one of 3 party members. The other party members are the protagonist (Beiluo, a 300 year old spirit and a man) and a 16 year old human girl (Cen Ying) who is an apprentice historian and archaeologist.
Yun Wuyue's age is not just a number like the thousand year dragon trope. She is by far the most experienced of the group. When the crew arrives at a new location, she is usually the one who explains the history behind the location and its importance. And the explanation is often woven organically into a conversation with Cen Ying--hence her archaeological study. She has a history with several of the major villains, or at least know each other by mutual reputation. When the crew needs a new magic or formula, she is the one familiar with it.
Yun Wuyue is not just a walking exposition character. You can observe the difference in her abilities and those of the other party members in gameplay and cutscenes. Whereas Beiluo needs to jump around and swing his sword wildly, Yun Wuyue flies, teleports, and casts magic. In the brief segment where you control her, the difference is remarkable: She turns into black mist and seamlessly rushes from rooftops to streets in a second. And when she finds the villain of the arc, she has a calm conversation with him while setting up a magic circle to trap him. Beiluo, by contrast, is introduced running around town and getting into a street brawl with a few thugs. It leaves me with the distinct impression of "why am I controlling this loser swordsman instead of that cool mage?"
The difference is also reflected in their demeanor. Yun Wuyue is calm, subdued in movement, and generally has a course of action in mind--not always the best but generally good given the circumstances. Beiluo is essentially a 300 year old rebellious teenager who got dragged (kicking and screaming) from his wandering because his brother's death required him to succeed the throne. Cen Ying is, of course, a 16 year old student.
There is a lot going for Yun Wuyue--if you are a fan of aesthetic of giving the bishounen and pretty girl touch to semi-realistic graphics (like Final Fantasy, and to a lesser extent, Tekken) and want a game with fewer problems than Final Fantasy. But as whole, I thought it fell short. Gujian 3 is a story about immortal spirits descending on the mortal real to fight evil. Yu Wuyue is much more competent at this than Beiluo in every sense, but he is the protagonist and the star of the series. Why? Because he is the young heir, and she is his guide. The game provides a justification for the question, but it still treads uncomfortably close to the idea that women, no matter how competent, are only for the supporting roles. This is why I ultimately decided against recommending the game.
Application to Danganronpa
I think Kyoko from Danganronpa suffers from a similar problem. In real life, Kyoko would be the detective, and Makoto would be the prosecutor. These are complementary roles with different skill sets, and both the game and you seem to imply a similar bifurcation. I do not think it works. This is partly the fault the mystery genre's conventions and partly the fault of constraints of gameplay.
The first problem is that the mystery genre generally does not require a prosecutor. In real life, prosecutors are needed because the evidence the detective collects tend to be messy, the defense's evidence makes it often messier, and the culprit may not be any suspect in the detective's file at all. The finder of facts are a judge, a panel of judges, or a jury who go into the case with their own bias and will interpret the evidence in light of their own experiences. The prosecutor's role is to organize the information and present them to the finder of facts in a coherent manner, sometimes appealing to their prejudices and emotions to get the desired result.
By contrast, the mystery genre abstracts away these difficulties. The culprit is in the room somewhere, and the finders of fact are surprisingly rational people who can interpret the evidence objectively. Hence, the mystery genre treats the detective's presentation as the end of the matter. The prosecutor is superfluous. Makoto, as the prosecutor, falls into this trap of the genre's conventions.
The second problem are the constraints of gameplay.Kyoko is written as the all-knowing detective who figures everything out quickly and sets the cast up for success. As an interactive medium, the game essentially has to put the player in the place of the player character. It is essentially impossible to write a convincing mystery where the player is supposed to be the all-knowing detective and is privy to the same information and deductions as she is. That means Danganronpa cannot let the player be Kyoko.
This leaves Danganronpa with the unenviable role of writing a mystery where the player character has to figure it out, but a supporting character already has everything figured out and is always there to help him succeed. There are reasons Danganronpa ran into the problem of having a much more competent girl support and cede the spotlight to a boy, but that does not change the existence of the problem.
There are solutions to this. The first solution is a corollary of RecLib's rule: Avoid having someone like Kyoko in the cast, so we do not have the problem of the smartest detective sitting on the side and letting the bumbling player figure it out. A second solution is to make Makoto a girl (or give the player a choice of gender), so at least Kyoko is not supporting a boy. A third solution is to make Makoto the Ultimate Prosecutor, Ultimate Orator, Ultimate Salesman, Ultimate Preacher, Ultimate Kindergarten Teacher, or something to suggest that he is particularly good at organizing and presenting information. This changes the character dynamic so that they have complementary roles--in contrast to the actual game, where Kyoko seems to be just better than Makoto.
Danganronpa does not do any of these. It uncomfortably reminded me of the real life dynamics where a really competent woman has her work credited to a less competent man, or where the woman is expected to relegate herself to a support role despite her skill. I agree that there are positives here: Kyoko is a highly competent woman. Certainly the result is better than some alternatives, like if Sayaka were the female lead, and Makoto has to save her by his lonesome through his unlikely skills of detection like the game initially leads you to believe. I hope I am not being too harsh on the game, but it is a bit questionable in this regard.
I agree a lot with your post here. I hadn't even considered the way Kyoko falls into the whole trap of the woman sitting on the sidelines and letting the man take credit for all of her work.
Thanks for the great post. I didn't know much about Guijan 3 so I'm glad that I know a little more.I found this a bit uncomfortable to read. It is not just who does the work but also who gets the credit for doing the work. The explanation felt like a girl did the hard work of detection and set up, while the boy got the spotlight for being the hero. It uncomfortably resembles the real life phenomenon where women are expected to be in a support role, while men lead and get the credit.
Please allow me to first illustrate the problem with a game (Gujian 3) that I thought about presenting as a counterexample to one (of many) post that implied only western games are making progress on sexism--but ultimately decided against doing so. Hopefully this shows that I am not picking on Danganronpa (and allows me to advertise the game a bit). Then, I will explain why I think the issue applies to Danganronpa.
Illustrating example
This is Yun Wuyue, the female lead of Gujian 3.
She is a 4000 year old spirit of darkness and one of 3 party members. The other party members are the protagonist (Beiluo, a 300 year old spirit and a man) and a 16 year old human girl (Cen Ying) who is an apprentice historian and archaeologist.
Yun Wuyue's age is not just a number like the thousand year dragon trope. She is by far the most experienced of the group. When the crew arrives at a new location, she is usually the one who explains the history behind the location and its importance. And the explanation is often woven organically into a conversation with Cen Ying--hence her archaeological study. She has a history with several of the major villains, or at least know each other by mutual reputation. When the crew needs a new magic or formula, she is the one familiar with it.
Yun Wuyue is not just a walking exposition character. You can observe the difference in her abilities and those of the other party members in gameplay and cutscenes. Whereas Beiluo needs to jump around and swing his sword wildly, Yun Wuyue flies, teleports, and casts magic. In the brief segment where you control her, the difference is remarkable: She turns into black mist and seamlessly rushes from rooftops to streets in a second. And when she finds the villain of the arc, she has a calm conversation with him while setting up a magic circle to trap him. Beiluo, by contrast, is introduced running around town and getting into a street brawl with a few thugs. It leaves me with the distinct impression of "why am I controlling this loser swordsman instead of that cool mage?"
The difference is also reflected in their demeanor. Yun Wuyue is calm, subdued in movement, and generally has a course of action in mind--not always the best but generally good given the circumstances. Beiluo is essentially a 300 year old rebellious teenager who got dragged (kicking and screaming) from his wandering because his brother's death required him to succeed the throne. Cen Ying is, of course, a 16 year old student.
There is a lot going for Yun Wuyue--if you are a fan of aesthetic of giving the bishounen and pretty girl touch to semi-realistic graphics (like Final Fantasy, and to a lesser extent, Tekken) and want a game with fewer problems than Final Fantasy. But as whole, I thought it fell short. Gujian 3 is a story about immortal spirits descending on the mortal real to fight evil. Yu Wuyue is much more competent at this than Beiluo in every sense, but he is the protagonist and the star of the series. Why? Because he is the young heir, and she is his guide. The game provides a justification for the question, but it still treads uncomfortably close to the idea that women, no matter how competent, are only for the supporting roles. This is why I ultimately decided against recommending the game.
Application to Danganronpa
I think Kyoko from Danganronpa suffers from a similar problem. In real life, Kyoko would be the detective, and Makoto would be the prosecutor. These are complementary roles with different skill sets, and both the game and you seem to imply a similar bifurcation. I do not think it works. This is partly the fault the mystery genre's conventions and partly the fault of constraints of gameplay.
The first problem is that the mystery genre generally does not require a prosecutor. In real life, prosecutors are needed because the evidence the detective collects tend to be messy, the defense's evidence makes it often messier, and the culprit may not be any suspect in the detective's file at all. The finder of facts are a judge, a panel of judges, or a jury who go into the case with their own bias and will interpret the evidence in light of their own experiences. The prosecutor's role is to organize the information and present them to the finder of facts in a coherent manner, sometimes appealing to their prejudices and emotions to get the desired result.
By contrast, the mystery genre abstracts away these difficulties. The culprit is in the room somewhere, and the finders of fact are surprisingly rational people who can interpret the evidence objectively. Hence, the mystery genre treats the detective's presentation as the end of the matter. The prosecutor is superfluous. Makoto, as the prosecutor, falls into this trap of the genre's conventions.
The second problem are the constraints of gameplay.Kyoko is written as the all-knowing detective who figures everything out quickly and sets the cast up for success. As an interactive medium, the game essentially has to put the player in the place of the player character. It is essentially impossible to write a convincing mystery where the player is supposed to be the all-knowing detective and is privy to the same information and deductions as she is. That means Danganronpa cannot let the player be Kyoko.
This leaves Danganronpa with the unenviable role of writing a mystery where the player character has to figure it out, but a supporting character already has everything figured out and is always there to help him succeed. There are reasons Danganronpa ran into the problem of having a much more competent girl support and cede the spotlight to a boy, but that does not change the existence of the problem.
There are solutions to this. The first solution is a corollary of RecLib's rule: Avoid having someone like Kyoko in the cast, so we do not have the problem of the smartest detective sitting on the side and letting the bumbling player figure it out. A second solution is to make Makoto a girl (or give the player a choice of gender), so at least Kyoko is not supporting a boy. A third solution is to make Makoto the Ultimate Prosecutor, Ultimate Orator, Ultimate Salesman, Ultimate Preacher, Ultimate Kindergarten Teacher, or something to suggest that he is particularly good at organizing and presenting information. This changes the character dynamic so that they have complementary roles--in contrast to the actual game, where Kyoko seems to be just better than Makoto.
Danganronpa does not do any of these. It uncomfortably reminded me of the real life dynamics where a really competent woman has her work credited to a less competent man, or where the woman is expected to relegate herself to a support role despite her skill. I agree that there are positives here: Kyoko is a highly competent woman. Certainly the result is better than some alternatives, like if Sayaka were the female lead, and Makoto has to save her by his lonesome through his unlikely skills of detection. I hope I do not come across as too nitpicky when I say the result is… still questionable.
So I hope it doesn't come across that with my previous post that I was praising Danganronpa as the way things SHOULD be, or even exactly as they ARE, but simply how my friend and I experienced it. To your note about credit, many times when we just regurgitated something Kyoko slowly fed us, and then some character is impressed by our "deductive skills", we practically would roll our eyes at the game (AKA Kyoko) feeding us the answer. I think that's why I came away with this impression, as neither of us cared how much some character in the game "praised" us, we were both completely aware that Kyoko has to figure everything out for us.
And as you've highlighted, this kind of situation that "doesn't work" arises from the roles each character has to play (Or is pigeon-holed into), and the trappings of the detective and murder-mystery genres. If I have to sum up the issue, it's that Kyoko is far too competent in the role which she takes to both do certain behaviors (Tell you anything or even bother with you) and to not do certain behaviors (Simply blow each and every case wide open immediately). As you said, she already has everything figured out, and to me she basically plays your mom, pointing stuff out to you, and then you point at it, and she says "Very good, dear. Good job!"
But the dynamic isn't like that in the story, she's a teen just like you. She's in the same predicament you are, and you all aren't alone, you're with a bunch of other people. People who say "Good job player-character" as a form of a validation and reward to YOU, but say "Good job, Makoto" within the story, sidelining Kyoko.
The reason that I highlight this mechanically is because this issue with the game doesn't feel like it's cut from the same cloth as say... all of the other issues the game (and the series) has with women. While we can talk about the other issues all day, this issue is one mainly of consequence of the genre and, I guess you could say, lack of evolution and innovation. The writers of this game didn't make a super-cool independent woman icon, they just made a double-amnesia super competent character who could be used at any time to feed information to the player and serve as a magic tutorial. She is far and away the "tool" they use to move the player to where the player needs to be mentally. This is actually my personal issue with her, in that making her spit out every single fact and nudge you back on track is not only kind of lazy, but it will obviously give every player the impression of "Why does she even need me here?"
So to return to the dynamic that you highlighted, I'm curious as to what may have bothered you the most in terms of the game "rewarding" the wrong person. When we played I feel like we just read between the lines really early, and it was just so patently obvious to us that Kyoko knew everything that we never felt that we as players, nor the characters in the game had any misgivings about things. There's only like one moment where any character other than Kyoko really has a "I guess you're not so useless after all" moment with Makoto that really stood out to us.
But enough about my experience, your latter points stand especially tall. Regardless of how it was intended, the game does put a leading dumb Makoto in front of genius detective Kyoko, and it's just off-putting. I guess the big reasons we didn't end up minding this is that I liked Kyoko as a character, it was obvious to us what kind of game Danganronpa was (More visual novel with elements of Detective game), and Kyoko basically uses you to simply get more information, arguably risking your life in the process. Despite her being nearly all-knowing, she needs you as a distraction at times (A role you can actually fulfill), and in a certain trial, she needs you to trust her, and there's a whole "Game Over" sequence if you choose not to (That of course gets reversed right after).
I guess maybe I didn't see the ways in which the game was trying to butter you (Makoto) up rather than Kyoko because my friend and I never felt that way. But as you and other's pointed out, the main issue is with the premise itself, and the dynamic can come off as relegating Kyoko to quiet helpful woman behind the player-character rather than a more interesting and better written role.
And as a final small side-note, I watched someone played Danganronpa 3 before I had seen any of 1. I was incredibly critical of that game at the time, from gameplay to sexism to poorly-written characters. When I sat down like 2 years later to play 1 with my friend, I really mellowed out, and just wanted to have a good time with him. I think I can chock that up to why I was more accepting of rather awkward and incongruous things like Mastermind Kyoko (And a bunch of other stuff which I won't go into). So I apologize if my posts are a bit naive. I think I would normally have much more of a problem with things like this, I just didn't notice them at the time because I was a bit more accepting of uh... far-fetched premises.
But that's why I'm here, so I'm glad people can point out stuff to me that I didn't realize or didn't understand.
OP
OP
I'm planning to clear out my PS4 backlog including TLoU remastered and I'm baffled that it got a pass for the women fridged for Joel's manpain (and all the Black characters dying (or being evil and dying))
TLOU was, yeah.. but at least they redeemed themselves with the sequel.
And Naughty Dog's anti-blackness is well known. But this is probably off topic, so I'll just link these recent threads that I remember (here & here).
And Naughty Dog's anti-blackness is well known. But this is probably off topic, so I'll just link these recent threads that I remember (here & here).
While never finished it, I played Gujian 3 for a good chunk of it (about 20 hours), and I mostly agree with this. It's another example of incompetent MC accompanied by a much wiser sidekick. Yun Wuyue is so cool, from the way she moves and talks, everything screams gracefulness of an ancient being. Beiluo, in the other hand, is such a spoiled brat, and it's worse that he's actually 300 years old. If normal human being is that old they'd be way more wise and competent than him. And we're stuck with him. He has his moments, and he'll probably grow more as a character later on, but the premise is not that satisfying.I found this a bit uncomfortable to read. It is not just who does the work but also who gets the credit for doing the work. The explanation felt like a girl did the hard work of detection and set up, while the boy got the spotlight for being the hero. It uncomfortably resembles the real life phenomenon where women are expected to be in a support role, while men lead and get the credit.
Please allow me to first illustrate the problem with a game (Gujian 3) that I thought about presenting as a counterexample to one (of many) post that implied only western games are making progress on sexism--but ultimately decided against doing so. Hopefully this shows that I am not picking on Danganronpa (and allows me to advertise the game a bit). Then, I will explain why I think the issue applies to Danganronpa.
Illustrating example
This is Yun Wuyue, the female lead of Gujian 3.
She is a 4000 year old spirit of darkness and one of 3 party members. The other party members are the protagonist (Beiluo, a 300 year old spirit and a man) and a 16 year old human girl (Cen Ying) who is an apprentice historian and archaeologist.
Yun Wuyue's age is not just a number like the thousand year dragon trope. She is by far the most experienced of the group. When the crew arrives at a new location, she is usually the one who explains the history behind the location and its importance. And the explanation is often woven organically into a conversation with Cen Ying--hence her archaeological study. She has a history with several of the major villains, or at least know each other by mutual reputation. When the crew needs a new magic or formula, she is the one familiar with it.
Yun Wuyue is not just a walking exposition character. You can observe the difference in her abilities and those of the other party members in gameplay and cutscenes. Whereas Beiluo needs to jump around and swing his sword wildly, Yun Wuyue flies, teleports, and casts magic. In the brief segment where you control her, the difference is remarkable: She turns into black mist and seamlessly rushes from rooftops to streets in a second. And when she finds the villain of the arc, she has a calm conversation with him while setting up a magic circle to trap him. Beiluo, by contrast, is introduced running around town and getting into a street brawl with a few thugs. It leaves me with the distinct impression of "why am I controlling this loser swordsman instead of that cool mage?"
The difference is also reflected in their demeanor. Yun Wuyue is calm, subdued in movement, and generally has a course of action in mind--not always the best but generally good given the circumstances. Beiluo is essentially a 300 year old rebellious teenager who got dragged (kicking and screaming) from his wandering because his brother's death required him to succeed the throne. Cen Ying is, of course, a 16 year old student.
There is a lot going for Yun Wuyue--if you are a fan of aesthetic of giving the bishounen and pretty girl touch to semi-realistic graphics (like Final Fantasy, and to a lesser extent, Tekken) and want a game with fewer problems than Final Fantasy. But as whole, I thought it fell short. Gujian 3 is a story about immortal spirits descending on the mortal real to fight evil. Yu Wuyue is much more competent at this than Beiluo in every sense, but he is the protagonist and the star of the series. Why? Because he is the young heir, and she is his guide. The game provides a justification for the question, but it still treads uncomfortably close to the idea that women, no matter how competent, are only for the supporting roles. This is why I ultimately decided against recommending the game.
Application to Danganronpa
I think Kyoko from Danganronpa suffers from a similar problem. In real life, Kyoko would be the detective, and Makoto would be the prosecutor. These are complementary roles with different skill sets, and both the game and you seem to imply a similar bifurcation. I do not think it works. This is partly the fault the mystery genre's conventions and partly the fault of constraints of gameplay.
The first problem is that the mystery genre generally does not require a prosecutor. In real life, prosecutors are needed because the evidence the detective collects tend to be messy, the defense's evidence makes it often messier, and the culprit may not be any suspect in the detective's file at all. The finder of facts are a judge, a panel of judges, or a jury who go into the case with their own bias and will interpret the evidence in light of their own experiences. The prosecutor's role is to organize the information and present them to the finder of facts in a coherent manner, sometimes appealing to their prejudices and emotions to get the desired result.
By contrast, the mystery genre abstracts away these difficulties. The culprit is in the room somewhere, and the finders of fact are surprisingly rational people who can interpret the evidence objectively. Hence, the mystery genre treats the detective's presentation as the end of the matter. The prosecutor is superfluous. Makoto, as the prosecutor, falls into this trap of the genre's conventions.
The second problem are the constraints of gameplay.Kyoko is written as the all-knowing detective who figures everything out quickly and sets the cast up for success. As an interactive medium, the game essentially has to put the player in the place of the player character. It is essentially impossible to write a convincing mystery where the player is supposed to be the all-knowing detective and is privy to the same information and deductions as she is. That means Danganronpa cannot let the player be Kyoko.
This leaves Danganronpa with the unenviable role of writing a mystery where the player character has to figure it out, but a supporting character already has everything figured out and is always there to help him succeed. There are reasons Danganronpa ran into the problem of having a much more competent girl support and cede the spotlight to a boy, but that does not change the existence of the problem.
There are solutions. The first solution is a corollary of RecLib's rule: Avoid having someone like Kyoko in the cast, so we do not have the problem of the smartest detective sitting on the side and letting the bumbling player figure it out. A second solution is to make Makoto a girl (or give the player a choice of gender), so at least Kyoko is not supporting a boy. A third solution is to make Makoto the Ultimate Prosecutor, Ultimate Orator, Ultimate Salesman, Ultimate Preacher, Ultimate Kindergarten Teacher, or something to suggest that he is particularly good at organizing and presenting information. This changes the character dynamic so that they have complementary roles--in contrast to the actual game, where Kyoko seems to be just better than Makoto in overlapping roles.
Danganronpa does not do any of these. It uncomfortably reminded me of the real life dynamics where a really competent woman has her work credited to a less competent man, or where the woman is expected to relegate herself to a support role despite her skill. I agree that there are positives here: Kyoko is a highly competent woman. Certainly the result is better than some alternatives, like if Sayaka were the female lead, and Makoto has to save her by his lonesome through his unlikely skills of detection like the game initially leads you to believe. I hope I am not being too harsh on the game, but it is a bit questionable in this regard.
I'd argue Tess is killed off more for Ellie's arc than Joel's. Joel buries that pain and moves on from it quickly, while we can assume its likely still affecting him, Joel doesn't let the world or the players see that. Ellie is the one still haunted by it, Tess becomes one more person on Ellie's list of people who have died. The last time we hear Tess' name mentioned its by Ellie at the end of the game, confronting Joel with her survivor's guilt: "her name was Riley and she was the first to die, and then it was Tess, and then Sam". Tess dies as part of Ellie's growing need for her immunity to mean something, for the journey to have meant something.
Shoving that survivor's guilt in the player's face just after we have, as Joel, completely shut down any hope of the journey having had the meaning Ellie was looking for while she had no agency in the choice is, I think, the primary point of the first game. To achieve that ending ND chose to kill off characters like Tess along the way.
I offer no defense of the ongoing treatment of black characters in most naughty dog works.
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I agree with this, Tess's death is more important to Ellie than Joel. Joel's manpain is all about Sarah's death. Personally, The Last of Us works for me since Ellie is the co-protagonist. If she was a mere companion the game would absolutely not work.
There really is no excuse for the racist handling of black characters in the series.
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Yes, the royal brat thing is another thing to hold against the game. I did not pay much attention to the 300 year old kid part, though. It is part of Chinese folklore. All animals, plants, and objects can train them selves into awareness and immortality, given enough time. For spirits, a few hundred years of training makes a kid. A thousand or more years of training makes a wise adult--generally wiser than any human is. Ten thousand years of training is usually enough to ascend to immortality. And since Beiluo is a 300 year old spirit, he acts like a teenager/young man.
Yeah. Ellie as Co-protagonist is definitely the reason that game has any soul to it. If it was just another story about an adult man protecting a child it would have been a lot lesser an experience, even if the overall narrative beats were very similar.
Its crazy how Naughty Dog had to fight Sony to put Ellie on the game's cover. Have we talked about that in this thread? There was pushback about the boxart: how the game would sell better if it was just Joel on the cover, Ellie doesn't need to be on the cover, or should just be way off in the background, etc.
Its a really positive improvement how they went from having to fight to have Ellie even on the cover last generation to being able to release a game with only Ellie on the cover, and with two women as the protagonists this generation.
I don't know if this exactly fits the threads premise, but I thought of this trend and wanted to know if anyone else noticed it or has thoughts. In JRPGs, if the SOLE main character is female, does she ever have a love interest?
Let's look at FF - which highlights this.
Some would argue Rinoa and Yuna specifically are more important than the average secondary character, but there's still a leading man in their games.
FF7 - Cloud likes Tifa and Aerith
FF8 - Squall likes Rinoa
FF9 - Zidane likes Dagger
FF10 - Tidus and Yuna
FF15 - Noctis and Luna
Hell FF4 - Cecil and Rosa
Yet Lightning and Terra, the only time where FF has had an unequivocal sole main female character in the main series, don't have a love interest at all, and one is never implied. What they do get is a secondary important female character with one (Serah and Noel, Celes and Locke)
Am I overthinking this? Is there a trend here that could be explained by Japanese cultural tendencies? Is it a dumb thing by not wanting to alienate straight male players by having the main character they're controlling be in love with a man?
Of course it's not just FF. Xenoblade 1 Shulk has Fiora, Xenoblade 2 Rex has Pyra and Mythra. Who does Elma have in XCX? (I've never played the game but I haven't read of any significant romance she has)
A bit more of a reach I'd also say Aqua is the main character of her branch of the KH series as she's the most prominent of the BBS trio. Sora has Kairi, but Aqua, once again is alone.
I guess it goes beyond JRPGs too - Mario + Peach, Link + Zelda, Samus + ??????
Of course I don't think they NEED romances, it doesn't hurt my perspective of them at all, in fact I don't really like romances in games. It's just a trend I noticed
Let's look at FF - which highlights this.
Some would argue Rinoa and Yuna specifically are more important than the average secondary character, but there's still a leading man in their games.
FF7 - Cloud likes Tifa and Aerith
FF8 - Squall likes Rinoa
FF9 - Zidane likes Dagger
FF10 - Tidus and Yuna
FF15 - Noctis and Luna
Hell FF4 - Cecil and Rosa
Yet Lightning and Terra, the only time where FF has had an unequivocal sole main female character in the main series, don't have a love interest at all, and one is never implied. What they do get is a secondary important female character with one (Serah and Noel, Celes and Locke)
Am I overthinking this? Is there a trend here that could be explained by Japanese cultural tendencies? Is it a dumb thing by not wanting to alienate straight male players by having the main character they're controlling be in love with a man?
Of course it's not just FF. Xenoblade 1 Shulk has Fiora, Xenoblade 2 Rex has Pyra and Mythra. Who does Elma have in XCX? (I've never played the game but I haven't read of any significant romance she has)
A bit more of a reach I'd also say Aqua is the main character of her branch of the KH series as she's the most prominent of the BBS trio. Sora has Kairi, but Aqua, once again is alone.
I guess it goes beyond JRPGs too - Mario + Peach, Link + Zelda, Samus + ??????
Of course I don't think they NEED romances, it doesn't hurt my perspective of them at all, in fact I don't really like romances in games. It's just a trend I noticed
It's a solid observation. The truth is that game devs have a lot of issues making male love interests. Women can be love interests, usually to men, very occasionally to other women... but men as love interests to either women or men? It very rarely happens outside of Bioware-style romance options.
Basically this. And it's not limited to JRPGs or even Japanese games at all.
Remember Me has a female protagonist, and was intended to have a male love interest and even a kissing scene in it, and the devs got pushback and were pressured to remove it, because it would make male players feel "icky" to see their protagonist kiss a man.
Remember Me developer struggled with securing a publisher over female protagonist
Remember Me is an upcoming action-adventure game combining stealth, parkour, cyberpunk, and the Inception-like concept of memory alteration. An amazing pitch, one sure to woo plenty publishers—oh, wait, the main character is a lady. Pass. That's essentially what developer Dontnod Entertainment...
Yeah now that you mention that, I'm hard pressed to find a female main protagonist with a male love interest at ALL in a game. Western game female protagonist would be... Ellie, Chloe, Aloy? I haven't heard of a single male partner for any of them.It's a solid observation. The truth is that game devs have a lot of issues making male love interests. Women can be love interests, usually to men, very occasionally to other women... but men as love interests to either women or men? It very rarely happens outside of Bioware-style romance options.
Basically this. And it's not limited to JRPGs or even Japanese games at all.
Remember Me has a female protagonist, and was intended to have a male love interest and even a kissing scene in it, and the devs got pushback and were pressured to remove it, because it would make male players feel "icky" to see their protagonist kiss a man.
Remember Me developer struggled with securing a publisher over female protagonist
Remember Me is an upcoming action-adventure game combining stealth, parkour, cyberpunk, and the Inception-like concept of memory alteration. An amazing pitch, one sure to woo plenty publishers—oh, wait, the main character is a lady. Pass. That's essentially what developer Dontnod Entertainment...www.pcgamer.com
As for that article, I can't believe the dev just came out and said that.... I thought mainly it would be an underlying reason but not explicitly confirmed, yeesh.
A few of the Atelier games have them, to a degree (multiple endings and direct sequels mean any time a previous protagonist shows up, their current relationship status is kept ambiguous). Obviously, that franchise has its own issues, being a shoujo series that increasingly caters to a male audience (and the fact the teenage protagonists are often given potential grown men as love interests...), but it's there, I guess?
Morrigan has a good observation on why this is extremely rare, but it does happen.
Entirely unambiguous
Nights of Azure (wlw). Arnice is the protagonist. Lilyse is her love interest.
Valkyrie Profile. Lenneth is the protagonist. Lucian is her love interest. They even kiss on screen.
Probably, but not quite entirely unambiguous
Jeanne d'Arc. Jeanne is the protagonist. Roger is her love interest.
Nights of Azure 2 (wlw). Aluche is the protagonist. Liliana is her love interest. (But really, AluchexRuenheid better).
Trails in the Sky. Estelle is the protagonist. Joshua is her love interest.
Wild Arms XF. Clarissa is the protagonist. Felius is her love interest.
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Xenoblade is pretty egregious with it because every xenogame before that including saga had romance as a part of its plot, heck xenosaga Shion was a woman and had up to 3( depending on who you ask love) love interests. the only reason i can think they didn't for elma was because cross exists but that still doesn't make a single lick off sense that romance didn't play a single part in the story, heck lora is the main character of torna and she clearly has a romantic interest in jin. There really is no reason elma couldn't have a love interest. instead here heart to heart is about understanding a random cat
In Atelier Escha and Logy they are in a relationship, though you can play as Logy too. Some other Atelier games kind of have relationships but like mentioned they're mainly non-committal fanships like Rorona and Sterk, Totori and Mimi, Firis and Ilmeria, maybe Ayesha and Ernie.
Both Nights of Azure games have love interests with the second game being kind of a harem with a main three pairing.
Trails in the Sky has a love interest for Estelle (Joshua.)
Both Nights of Azure games have love interests with the second game being kind of a harem with a main three pairing.
Trails in the Sky has a love interest for Estelle (Joshua.)
It feels more than a bit unfortunate that the notable games for this are all over a decade old. -_-
while it rare jrpgs do have them that's something i think we can agree on that, but when it comes to the Triple A industry a female main character with a love interest that isn't a choice of gender at the beginning, Is basically nonexistent. outside of elly and abby I can't think of any one else
Off the top of my head, Lenneth of Valkyrie Profile has a male love interest in Lucian, as does Alicia from Valkyrie Profile 2 with the deuteragonist Rufus. Shion from Xenosaga has a male admirer in Allen and spends most of the trilogy dealing with her grief over the death of her boyfriend Kevin (and her parents). But it is certainly uncommon. In Fire Emblem Blazing Sword, both Hector and Eliwood have canonical romances with two of the recruitable characters IIRC, while Lyn, the first Lord you meet and whom you spend the first arc of the game with, has no such prospects and the game assumes the player insert character is male.
The protagonist of Drakengard 3 is a woman that has a harem of men she essentially takes from her sisters after killing them.
Going by Lyn's dialogue in various games over the years, Lyn's interest is is the assumed male player insert (where you are an assumed wandering, faceless tactical genius without a unit representing you on the battlefield), a member added a video on that the last time we discussed it, it's so weird. Naturally FE Heroes takes it even further, both in dialogue hammering it home and the art sexualised to a far greater degree. Heaven forbid a woman with a leading role be allowed to have a story where she likes someone else, Lyn just exists to fill the role of the player's fantasy girlfriend at this point, not to mention that, initially, she existed to be the lead of the tutorial campaign before the game hands the story over to two male nobles from generic quasi-medieval countries with castles.
The other side of it is that why do men always need to have an arc where they manage to romance a woman amidst killing thousands of zombies/mercenaries/aliens/demons/robots anyway. You'd think they'd have their hands full :D
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User Banned (1 Month): Inflammatory/Racist Generalization
U guys I just recently got into the game "Onmyoji" because of their gorgeous CG shorts on youtube and my God u guys the designs for the female characters are fucking PHENOMENAL, and its not only the designs too like in the story aspects the women are mostly the main characters and they're given so much to do in those im honestly suprised cause im not gonna lie i was firmly on the side that east asia was regressing in terms of female character designs and especially so because of their over realigns on garbage and outdated infantalizing anime tropes put like they said NOPE and the vast majority of the female cast are very much older and they act, speak and emote according to their age it honesty took me off guard,
Though obviously i havent been into the game ever since its realese so i wont know if they have problematic designs but from what i saw on their campaign clips they look pretty great
Warning big pictures in spoilers:
Like even the "Sexy" designs feel more sensual then out right sexualizing you know?? idk i just like alot more of what im seeing then the skin the eyes are going to,
I love this skin of hers:
The only disapointing thing for others i think are the "Loli"(yuck...) Characters, and thoough yes these characters leave alot to be desired i still think the designs are very modest to go with these little girls ages(visually anyways), i really like these ones :)
Though obviously i havent been into the game ever since its realese so i wont know if they have problematic designs but from what i saw on their campaign clips they look pretty great
Warning big pictures in spoilers:
Like even the "Sexy" designs feel more sensual then out right sexualizing you know?? idk i just like alot more of what im seeing then the skin the eyes are going to,
I love this skin of hers:
The only disapointing thing for others i think are the "Loli"(yuck...) Characters, and thoough yes these characters leave alot to be desired i still think the designs are very modest to go with these little girls ages(visually anyways), i really like these ones :)