WSJ: Nintendo to Launch Two New Switch Models. Premium "Enhanced" Model and Cheaper Portable Model.

What are you most excited for?

  • The more powerful model

    Votes: 4,343 67.8%
  • The more handheld model

    Votes: 599 9.4%
  • Both!

    Votes: 711 11.1%
  • Neither.

    Votes: 751 11.7%

  • Total voters
    6,404
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bmfrosty

Member
Oct 27, 2017
627
SF Bay Area
They're going to showcase whatever they can, even if they have to clock it down.

I *think* 12nm is the sweet spot that Nintendo is going to want, and as long as a Turing shader core is about the same size as a Volta shader core, then it's probably going to be Turing. Manufacturing cost should be about the same for two cores of the same size at the same process.
 

ShadowFox08

Member
Nov 25, 2017
2,019
.


The MagicLeap One is both big and expensive. I'm still of the opinion that Mariko is little more than a die-shrunk X1 with some slight modifications.

The Switch Mini will offer similar performance to the current Switch but with lower power consumption (and with a more limited design and lower price). The revised ("enhanced") Switch will have the same die-shrunk X1 but with higher clocks for somewhat improved performance (somewhere between the difference between docked vs undocked and Xbox One S vs original Xbox One) and will be a drop-in replacement for the existing Switch.

That's my take, job posting notwithstanding.
Right, but it's not the tegra X2 chip that's making it expensive. It's the VR tech.

And switch is just getting into VR themselves with labo. Could it be coincidence? Nintendo will get it in bulk also
 

ILikeFeet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,177
Right, but it's not the tegra X2 chip that's making it expensive. It's the VR tech.

And switch is just getting into VR themselves with labo. Could it be coincidence? Nintendo will get it in bulk also
one of the reasons I don't think it's the X2 is that there's already a codename for a new chip. the X1 didn't have a separate codename (I think it's just referred as the X1 or Erista in teh switch's code)
 

Bomblord

Member
Jan 11, 2018
4,041
I see people keep talking about it just being a die shrunk X1. What I don't understand is how exactly a "die shrunk X1" is different than a Tegra X2 which is literally a Die Shrink of the X1 going from 20nm->16nm
 

KojiKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,173
I see people keep talking about it just being a die shrunk X1. What I don't understand is how exactly a "die shrunk X1" is different than a Tegra X2 which is literally a Die Shrink of the X1 going from 20nm->16nm
X2 is not a die-shrink of X1, I'm not sure who or where you got that info from but it is wrong.

The X2 uses Denver cores as it's primary processor type, which is NOT fully compatible with the A57/A53. It does have A57 cores, but those Denver cores would be a big block of wasted silicon.

It's also pascal versus maxwell on the graphics side.
 

ShadowFox08

Member
Nov 25, 2017
2,019
Subjective. What if it isn’t more “powerful” but runs games better and is more modern? Spec power numbers mean shit these days.
Who said anything about on paper spec numbers? I know Tegra is more efficient per flop than AMD (especially 2017-2018 hardware vs 2012). I think a 1TFLOP Tegra X2 or Turing GPU will be on par with xbone base's GPU
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,441
X2 is not a die-shrink of X1, I'm not sure who or where you got that info from but it is wrong.

The X2 uses Denver cores as it's primary processor type, which is NOT fully compatible with the A57/A53. It does have A57 cores, but those Denver cores would be a big block of wasted silicon.

It's also pascal versus maxwell on the graphics side.
pascal has minimal differences with maxwell aside from a die shrink.

And you are right, an off the shelf x2 is not an ideal chip for Nintendo because of those Denver cores.

Custom doesn’t mean Turing/ xavier though as some here seems to think. it only means that Nintendo gets to pick and choose the blocks they want based on their budget and what they want to achieve with the revision.

An off the shelf chip like the tx1/ 2 is made to fit all potential buyers and necessarily has features not needed in a gaming console. Mariko will have what Nintendo wants it to have, and nothing else.
 
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ILikeFeet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,177
pascal has minimal differences with maxwell aside from a die shrink.

And you are right, an off the shelf x2 is not an ideal chip for Nintendo because of those Denver cores.

Custom doesn’t mean Turing/ xavier though as some here seems to think. it only means that Nintendo gets to pick and choose the blocks they want based on their budget and what they want to achieve with the revision.

An off the shelf chip like the tx1/ 2 is made to fit all potential buyers and necessarily has features not needed in a gaming console. Mariko will have what Nintendo wants it to have, and nothing else.
That's assuming Nintendo has a hand in the design. It's possible they do, but they could also be buying off the shelf like they did with the X1.

That being said, since Nintendo is really the only buyers for Tegra, they can lead the division around
 

taggen86

Member
Mar 3, 2018
174
Hellblade sure loves a GPU overlock in handheld mode. The difference in resolution is pretty insane when comparing stock clocks (384 mhz) to 768 mhz. This really demonstrates that devs should choose high upper resolutions in dynamic res games so that current games can benefit from future switch hardware. The high 720p upper resolution in handheld mode really shines here.

Stock (384 mhz) handheld mode



OC 768 mhz handheld mode

 
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Oct 25, 2017
8,614
Hellblade sure loves that GPU overlock in handheld mode. The difference in resolution is pretty insane when comparing stock clocks (384 mhz) to 768 mhz. This really demonstrates that devs should choose high upper resolutions in dynamic res games so that current games can benefit from future switch hardware. The high 720p upper resolution in handheld mode really shines here.

Stock (384 mhz) handheld mode



OC 768 mhz handheld mode

I am really interested and hopeful that Nintendo will at least try to get that working on the switch pro.
Instant improvements to every handheld game Would be quite the selling point.

Would help switch hold up a lot more in the coming years too.

I mentioned previously that a battery save mode would also add a lot of value.
For example, BOTW at 900p on the handheld for 3+ hours, or BOTW at 720p on the handheld for 5+.

A lot of speculation has the unfortunate effect of me wanting to wait and see, not buying any graphically intensive games on switch till it comes out, lol
 

taggen86

Member
Mar 3, 2018
174
Yeah, a combination of higher clocks and better battery life would be the best and would probably be easy and cheap to get if they go for a 16 och 12nm node next time. The only real disadvantage I have seen from overlocking the switch is that it drains the battery faster. Using 768 mhz in handheld mode only I get around 2 hours of gaming. But it is really worth it in games like Hellblade. To get these kinds of resolutions while having 4 plus hours of battery life would be really nice!


I am really interested and hopeful that Nintendo will at least try to get that working on the switch pro.
Instant improvements to every handheld game Would be quite the selling point.

Would help switch hold up a lot more in the coming years too.

I mentioned previously that a battery save mode would also add a lot of value.
For example, BOTW at 900p on the handheld for 3+ hours, or BOTW at 720p on the handheld for 5+.

A lot of speculation has the unfortunate effect of me wanting to wait and see, not buying any graphically intensive games on switch till it comes out, lol
 

ShadowFox08

Member
Nov 25, 2017
2,019
I am really interested and hopeful that Nintendo will at least try to get that working on the switch pro.
Instant improvements to every handheld game Would be quite the selling point.

Would help switch hold up a lot more in the coming years too.

I mentioned previously that a battery save mode would also add a lot of value.
For example, BOTW at 900p on the handheld for 3+ hours, or BOTW at 720p on the handheld for 5+.

A lot of speculation has the unfortunate effect of me wanting to wait and see, not buying any graphically intensive games on switch till it comes out, lol
Switch pro might just be better off with a 720p screen if we are getting a boost of up to 2.5x power. Especially when a lot of 3rd party port games are running 720p docked. Games like botw won't be needed for enhanced handheld mode... But Doom and xc2 running at 720p on enhanced handheld (current docked specs) would be amazing!

Yeah, a combination of higher clocks and better battery life would be the best and would probably be easy and cheap to get if they go for a 16 och 12nm node next time. The only real disadvantage I have seen from overlocking the switch is that it drains the battery faster. Using 768 mhz in handheld mode only I get around 2 hours of gaming. But it is really worth it in games like Hellblade. To get these kinds of resolutions while having 4 plus hours of battery life would be really nice!
I'm surprised the mod cuts down battery life by only 33% when docked clocks are being used in handheld mode. I was expecting at least 50 for some reason for doubling the watt usage and getting it hotter faster.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,614
Switch pro might just be better off with a 720p screen if we are getting a boost of up to 2.5x power. Especially when a lot of 3rd party port games are running 720p docked. Games like botw won't be needed for enhanced handheld mode... But Doom and xc2 running at 720p on enhanced handheld (current docked specs) would be amazing!
I meant more of an automatic upgrade.
Any game that supports docked mode on the original switch getting automatic support for pro handheld mode on the new switch.
Preferably without any extra input from developers to not add too much extra work.

As you mentioned, Zelda looks pretty good as is so someone that just wants more time in Zelda Can just enable battery saver mode which runs at the original handheld spec.
Something like XC2 or like Doom where performance and better visuals would be more appreciated than a few extra hours, just stick with the default mode.

I do think 720p is preferable. Perhaps leave 1080p for the switch 2?
Would leave nearly every game at Native resolution or above. Likely better for battery life as well.
 

Mr.Gamerson

Member
Oct 27, 2017
435
Hellblade sure loves a GPU overlock in handheld mode. The difference in resolution is pretty insane when comparing stock clocks (384 mhz) to 768 mhz. This really demonstrates that devs should choose high upper resolutions in dynamic res games so that current games can benefit from future switch hardware. The high 720p upper resolution in handheld mode really shines here.

Stock (384 mhz) handheld mode



OC 768 mhz handheld mode


Nintendo could make their own version of THIS but better and then unleash the over-clocks for everybody lol. It's always cool to see how much the Homebrew community has been able to improve the switch's performance and functionality.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,003
Spain
Nintendo could make their own version of THIS but better and then unleash the over-clocks for everybody lol. It's always cool to see how much the Homebrew community has been able to improve the switch's performance and functionality.
When you do not have to worry about component life, quality control, battery damage and things like that, you can certainly get things like that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,614
Easy Allies/friend code discussed the rumor here

I think Damiani might not understand tech too well saying that both switch pro won’t match Xbox one but would get 1080p 60fps for all first party games like XC2.

Also talked about new 3DS and exclusives, at least first party-wise.
In, i believe, all cases exclusive first party new 3DS games were just ports from games built for stronger platforms.
Xenoblade was built for Wii and 3DS isn’t capable enough.
Hyrule Warriors was built for Wii U (version exists for the original 3DS, tho)
FE Warriors was built for switch.

There is no more powerful Nintendo console
 

Mr.Gamerson

Member
Oct 27, 2017
435
When you do not have to worry about component life, quality control, battery damage and things like that, you can certainly get things like that.
Disclaimers everywhere ! It would be interesting to see how quickly the current switch running overclocked specs would take to crap out compared to a switch at the default clocks.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,345
Easy Allies/friend code discussed the rumor here

I think Damiani might not understand tech too well saying that both switch pro won’t match Xbox one but would get 1080p 60fps for all first party games like XC2.

Also talked about new 3DS and exclusives, at least first party-wise.
In, i believe, all cases exclusive first party new 3DS games were just ports from games built for stronger platforms.
Xenoblade was built for Wii and 3DS isn’t capable enough.
Hyrule Warriors was built for Wii U (version exists for the original 3DS, tho)
FE Warriors was built for switch.

There is no more powerful Nintendo console
Not might. He clearly didn't.

I think only bloodworth has any technical knowledge.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,606
Async compute has been a part of this generation since 2011 when AMD GCN GPUs hit the market, it seriously wouldn't surprise me if it is Turing, I had the odds at 1:3 before the Nintendo job offer, afterwards I'm putting it at 2:3, with Pascal being the other likely choice.

One thing that I'm looking at is Tegra's timeline, Tegra always seems to get a release of the current GPU architecture within a year of their desktop GPU's release, and Turing had its release last year, so by the end of this year, Nvidia should have Turing Tegra hardware available.

I know that the Switch Pro had a Tegra X2 in it and last year changed to a new chip with a more modern ARM CPU, that would line up with prototype Turing Tegra hardware. Another reason to look at this is because the Tegra X2 used in the Switch Pro was overclocked, that clock would have to be 1.6ghz or more, and offer ~800gflops. Again it was changed out around the same time Mariko hit Switch firmware with 5.0 in March last year.

If they want a device with 800gflops or more, they need more Cuda Cores, clocking a GPU that high is fine normally, but the Switch has a Battery being charged right next to it, so you can't draw that much power without the device getting too hot to hold, and that limits the use of pulling it out of the dock. If they are adding more Cuda cores and moving to 12nm, it's likely they go with a whole new GPU architecture, it also makes sense with the report I've heard of a new CPU architecture.

People are hung up on Nintendo hardware never being that new, but this is just a weird way to look at this imo, Turing is what Nvidia would want in their new shield tv and in the Switch, it also is cheaper than Pascal since it's already on the 12nm node, lastly it doesn't make the switch much more capable, it just has some interesting features, I mean in my mind a 944gflops pascal chip is more impressive than a 800gflops Turing chip, but I'd suggest that the difference between these chips are completely exaggerated by people in this thread, it's just a few naturally better features for a low powered device, like variable shader support and async compute, at absolute best it can offer a bit more than 25% performance, but the average will be lower. Again I'm not trying to say that for a fact it's Turing, but I'm leaning towards Turing over Pascal.
Just got to a part where he thought BOTW ran at 1080p so I imagine he’s fine with how things are now.

Don’t expect any game that’s <1080p 30fps to get a 1080p 60fps jump, i think
FPS jumps beyond the target fps require more work than resolution bumps, but it often isn't difficult to do, but the likely CPU upgrade should be enough to achieve 60fps in games that might be limited to 30fps on the current Switch going forward.
 

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,509
Not might. He clearly didn't.

I think only bloodworth has any technical knowledge.
Yeah even somewhat recently Bradley said that the Switch was less powerful than the PS3/X360.

I found it, it was in August 2018 and he said something alon the lines of "Diablo 3 on Switch will be among the worst versions, PS3/X360 level of performance if that"

Funny given how the port turned out to be.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,606
Yeah even somewhat recently Bradley said that the Switch was less powerful than the PS3/X360.

I found it, it was in August 2018 and he said something alon the lines of "Diablo 3 on Switch will be among the worst versions, PS3/X360 level of performance if that"

Funny given how the port turned out to be.
Well we lean on our gaming press to be too much, easy allies don't really worry about the tech, but they are always asked about it so they are pressured to talk about stuff they don't know, if you want a tech analyst from gaming press, you have to go to someone like spawnwave, and his analyst is still limited because he doesn't code, but he keeps up at least loosely with the hardware that comes out and is willing to research new stuff.

Anyways, I wouldn't hold it against easy allies, they aren't trying to lie to anyone, they just don't have an eye for tech like 99% of the rest of the gaming press.
 

Rion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,851
Well we lean on our gaming press to be too much, easy allies don't really worry about the tech, but they are always asked about it so they are pressured to talk about stuff they don't know, if you want a tech analyst from gaming press, you have to go to someone like spawnwave, and his analyst is still limited because he doesn't code, but he keeps up at least loosely with the hardware that comes out and is willing to research new stuff.

Anyways, I wouldn't hold it against easy allies, they aren't trying to lie to anyone, they just don't have an eye for tech like 99% of the rest of the gaming press.
What do you think would be the absolute max tech boost for a potential Switch Pro in tablet form for $299 / 3 hour battery life and aiming for this November.

CPU speed, memory amount, memory bandwidth, GPU flops?
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,606
What do you think would be the absolute max tech boost for a potential Switch Pro in tablet form for $299 / 3 hour battery life and aiming for this November.

CPU speed, memory amount, memory bandwidth, GPU flops?
If they were compelled to use 7nm, I think they could have a monster device, but from everything we know and what they used in the overclocked Tegra X2, they aren't doing that.

To answer your question honestly though, the max Nvidia could do for $299 is a 512cuda core gpu at 1.5ghz for 1.5TFLOPs, with 6 core A73 at 2ghz and 4 core A53 at 2ghz, With 8GB 137GB/s RAM.

My highest expectations are roughly half of that, simply because Nintendo isn't creating a new platform and Switch is heavily discussed as Nintendo's final platform, only getting iterative upgrades and different form factors, but unlikely to be replaced for at least this next decade.

Another thing holding back this model is that the Switch Mini likely will use the same chip, they are going with 12nm because it's the cheapest process node they can use and achieve the best performance possible, it's also why I went with A73. These are the cheapest upgrades they can do, they just also happen to be the most efficient and a nice upgrade from the current model, it's also Turing that fills this solution objective too, cheaper to use a architecture already on a process node than to move an existing architecture to a new process node.
 

Rion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,851
If they were compelled to use 7nm, I think they could have a monster device, but from everything we know and what they used in the overclocked Tegra X2, they aren't doing that.

To answer your question honestly though, the max Nvidia could do for $299 is a 512cuda core gpu at 1.5ghz for 1.5TFLOPs, with 6 core A73 at 2ghz and 4 core A53 at 2ghz, With 8GB 137GB/s RAM.

My highest expectations are roughly half of that, simply because Nintendo isn't creating a new platform and Switch is heavily discussed as Nintendo's final platform, only getting iterative upgrades and different form factors, but unlikely to be replaced for at least this next decade.

Another thing holding back this model is that the Switch Mini likely will use the same chip, they are going with 12nm because it's the cheapest process node they can use and achieve the best performance possible, it's also why I went with A73. These are the cheapest upgrades they can do, they just also happen to be the most efficient and a nice upgrade from the current model, it's also Turing that fills this solution objective too, cheaper to use a architecture already on a process node than to move an existing architecture to a new process node.
Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to reply.

It would be amazing if they went or the maximum lol. 4k / 60fps Breath of the Wild on native hardware!
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,606
Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to reply.

It would be amazing if they went or the maximum lol. 4k / 60fps Breath of the Wild on native hardware!
I expect something like that in 3 or 4 years either way. Actually thinking they would go with even more Performance at that point to help next gen games make it to the platform.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,970
Aren't Tensor cores an inherent part of the design of Volta/Turing? Curious if they will go for that.

Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to reply.

It would be amazing if they went or the maximum lol. 4k / 60fps Breath of the Wild on native hardware!
Maybe the revision after the next one if you're lucky!
 

Myriotes

Member
Jan 30, 2018
491
Germany
Aren't Tensor cores an inherent part of the design of Volta/Turing? Curious if they will go for that.

Maybe the revision after the next one if you're lucky!
The GTX 1660 (Ti) and the GTX 1650 are Turing without Tensor cores, so I would not call it inherent.

I really hope that Nvidia "pushes" Nintendo to use Turing architecture. Maybe it makes "forward compatibility" for the S+ possible when the S2 releases.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,606
Thanks, wasn't sure if those were using new designs or just disabled areas
Yeah those GPUs are using a "TU" chip, so indeed Turing, also we should see a Turing Tegra version this year (based on Tegra's release history) and a new shield tv looks like it is coming (based on the leaked controller and remote).
 
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Rion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,851
Aren't Tensor cores an inherent part of the design of Volta/Turing? Curious if they will go for that.



Maybe the revision after the next one if you're lucky!
I could already do it on my PC if I wanted to but it feels "wrong" even if I bought the WiiU version. Don't like emulation at all.

I'd honestly be delighted with 1440p / 30fps if the Switch GPU is 7nm and gets towards 1tflop when docked. I don't see Nintendo targeting above 1080p even if the hardware could do it though for heat reasons. We all know what the Pro sounds like running 1440p games.
 

ILikeFeet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,177
I keep seeing people say this, but can the ipad pro actually achieve a sustained XBO performance or are people mistaking the CPU for the whole XBO SoC?
 
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