Avengers: Endgame |Spoiler OT2| Changing the past doesn't change the future

[Trup1aya]

I was heavily under the impression that the Ancient One was talking about her own timeline when talking to Banner. Especially considering the Doctor Strange solo movie already established that multiple timelines/realities can be made simply by using the time stone, not from removing it.

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And you are correct. For whatever reason, there are two schools of thought on this

1) timeline works in one way, the way explained by Banner, TAO and the Russo's that explains EVERY instance of timetravel without plot holes.

Or

2) it works in some other way that has no consistency whatsoever. The notion that the past can't be changed is immediately destroyed by the time travelers literally changing the past via their presence.

For some reason people are fixed on number 2.

 

[StarCreator]

The fact this argument continues on despite all the attempts at clarification from both the writers and the directors just proves how little sense it actually makes. I'm at the point where litigating it further is just going to put a damper on how much I enjoyed watching the film despite its faults, and I'd honestly advise everyone to do the same. It doesn't matter in the end. Just walk away.

 

[Deleted member 2145]

The fact this argument continues on despite all the attempts at clarification just proves how little sense it makes in the end

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not at all, I think it's just the MCU slowly but surely indoctrinating their audience to some classic comics shit

this type of stuff is old hat for many

 

[DeltaRed]

TAO's little timeline show should have shown lots of strands of times alongside hers.

It's possible to change someone else's past?

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Only their future.

 

[astro]

Word for word as the scene says and shows:


TAO

"The infinity stones create what you experience as the flow of time, remove one of the stones and that flow splits.

Now this may benefit your reality, but my NEW (keyword: NEW) one not so much.

In this new branch reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world would be overrun. Millions would suffer.

So tell me Dr, can your science prevent all that?"

Banner

"No, but we can ERASE IT, because once we're done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken, so, chronologically, in that reality it never left."

-

The words "Erase it" are key, as is "new".

The diagram showing the branch disappearing, the stone reappearing in its original position, and the only timeline remaining being the original one is clear.

 

[Sephzilla]

The fact this argument continues on despite all the attempts at clarification from both the writers and the directors just proves how little sense it actually makes. I'm at the point where litigating it further is just going to put a damper on how much I enjoyed watching the film despite its faults, and I'd honestly advise everyone to do the same. It doesn't matter in the end. Just walk away.

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I think it makes perfect sense and the writers explanation makes perfect sense. The issue is that some people just don't want to understand it.

 

[Deleted member 1248]

And Banner's conversation with TAO clearly states that reality will be returned to the mainline and branches entirely prevented if the stone is returned.

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No, she states returning the stone prevents catastrophic change. That's not the same thing.

 

[astro]

No, she states returning the stone prevents catastrophic change. That's not the same thing.

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See above, word for word from the scene.

 

[Lotus]

not at all

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I agree, these OTs always have endless arguments about something, this time it just happens to be time travel.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

Word for word as the scene says and shows:


TAO

"The infinity stones create what you experience as the flow of time, remove one of the stones and that flow splits.

Now this may benefit your reality, but my NEW (keyword: NEW) one not so much.

In this new branch reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world would be overrun. Millions would suffer.

So tell me Dr, can your science prevent all that?"

Banner

"No, but we can ERASE IT, because once we're done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken, so, chronologically, in that reality it never left."

-

The words "Erase it" are key, as is "new".

The diagram showing the branch disappearing, the stone reappearing in its original position, and the only timeline remaining being the original one is clear.

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you literally ignored all the relevant words from banner and focused on the least important.

 

[Sephzilla]

Word for word as the scene says and shows:


TAO

"The infinity stones create what you experience as the flow of time, remove one of the stones and that flow splits.

Now this may benefit your reality, but my NEW (keyword: NEW) one not so much.

In this new branch reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world would be overrun. Millions would suffer.

So tell me Dr, can your science prevent all that?"

Banner

"No, but we can ERASE IT, because once we're done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken, so, chronologically, in that reality it never left."

-

The words "Erase it" are key, as is "new".

The diagram showing the branch disappearing, the stone reappearing in its original position, and the only timeline remaining being the original one is clear.

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Again, this is only from the perspective of the one timeline the Ancient One is currently existing in. Not a broader multi timeline view of things that also factors in Quantum Realm time travel.

She's talking about something completely different

 

[astro]

Again, this is only from the perspective of the one timeline the Ancient One is currently existing in. Not a broader multi timeline view of things that also factors in Quantum Realm time travel.

She's talking about something completely different

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The films shows and tells us this. It doesn't matter how we think time travel works in theory etc....

THESE are the rules the film has, as stated.

you literally ignored all the relevant words from banner and focused on the least important.

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Haha. Even when it is literally spelled out...

I'm out.

 

[Visanideth]

I think I've found the source of your confusion, you think the ancient one's timeline is the only timeline when she's speaking to her own specific timeline. the dialogue is pretty clear when she references her reality and banner's as being different. because they're different.

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Then why she says "My new timeline?"

Look, if Banner has traveled to HER timeline then why we get a new black branch when she speaks of her NEW timeline? There's no need for branching: what we should see is the timeline going black from where Banner takes the stone off. It's not like Banner travels to TAO's timeline, and then by taking the stone he creates two different timelines (different from his own), one of which is uncorrupted for.... reasons?

If Banner is traveling to TAO's timeline, and he takes the stone out of her timeline, why does her timeline branch? It means there's one version of the timeline where Banner doesn't take the stone?

They gave you a GUI of the explanation for a reason.

 

[Deleted member 1248]

See above, word for word from the scene.

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The act of Banner being there at all when he wasn't there originally automatically creates a new timeline, but it doesn't doom it. We can't ignore that.

 

[Sephzilla]

The films shows and tells us this. It doesn't matter how we think time travel works in theory etc....

THESE are the rules the film has, as stated.

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That's not how the rules state it, at all, especially when you factor in Doctor Strange and Infinity War

 

[Visanideth]

Again, this is only from the perspective of the one timeline the Ancient One is currently existing in. Not a broader multi timeline view of things that also factors in Quantum Realm time travel.

She's talking about something completely different

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So again, why does TAO's timeline branch, if that's what she's showing Banner (without saying it, but oh well)?

 

[Visanideth]

That's not how the rules state it, at all, especially when you factor in Doctor Strange and Infinity War

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Doctor Strange shows us multiverse, not alternate realities or alternate timelines. It's a different thing.

 

[astro]

That's not how the rules state it, at all, especially when you factor in Doctor Strange and Infinity War

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That's how that scene states it. Clearly.

I'm done debating this specific part as it's literally there word for word.

Doctor Strange shows us multiverse, not alternate realities or alternate timelines. It's a different thing.

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Yes.

 

[Deleted member 2145]

Then why she says "My new timeline?"

Look, if Banner has traveled to HER timeline then why we get a new black branch when she speaks of her NEW timeline? There's no need for branching: what we should see is the timeline going black from where Banner takes the stone off. It's not like Banner travels to TAO's timeline, and then by taking the stone he creates two different timelines (different from his own), one of which is uncorrupted for.... reasons?

If Banner is traveling to TAO's timeline, and he takes the stone out of her timeline, why does her timeline branch? It means there's one version of the timeline where Banner doesn't take the stone?

They gave you a GUI of the explanation for a reason.

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because by removing the stone banner is creating a new vulnerable branch reality for her timeline and by returning the stone at the exact moment it was removed he's preventing that

 

[Deleted member 1248]

So again, why does TAO's timeline branch, if that's what she's showing Banner (without saying it, but oh well)?

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The branch is black, which is a visual indicator that the change caused by taking the stone and not returning it would be a disaster.

There is a branch also created by Banner visiting her as well, but there's no need for her to show that because that alone would not be cause for disaster.

 

[Chikor]

it's actually clear as can be

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I think the pages of argument about it proves this to be false.
And for the record, I personally think that they didn't try to make it clear or coherent, or at least that this wasn't a priority.

 

[Parthenios]

But that doesn't fix TAO's dialogue. TAO's reality is the same as Banner (who traveled to his own past) until he takes out a stone. They didn't travel to another timeline to get another version of the stone.

People (including the Russos, honestly) are conflating alternate realities with timelines.
The avengers are traveling through time, not in parallel universes.

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They create a parallel universe the moment they time travel though. Their past didn't include a second Hulk on the roof of the Sanctum for example, even before anyone's taken a stone. As soon as they arrive, a new universe branches off. They aren't travelling to their past in a sense that they could change their past, only that it's an exact duplicate.

 

[Visanideth]

because by removing the stone banner is creating a new vulnerable branch reality for her timeline and by returning the stone at the exact moment it was removed he's preventing that

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So now there's a timeline where Banner visits but doesn't get corrupted... how? Why?

You're postulating so much to justify your theory that the movie doesn't say or show.

TAO tells him ALL reality is the gold strand.

She tells him the stones keep the flow of time together.

She tells him taking the stone will create a NEW reality, and shows it as a black branch from the main reality.


And your explanation is "she wasn't talking about Banner's reality to begin with, clearly". You're reverse engineering the scene to fit your theory.

 

[Deleted member 2145]

I think the pages of argument about it proves this to be false.

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this is never a good justification, era/the internet in general will fling poo about quite literally anything

people grapple with clearly understood things all the time, this isn't the first time nor will it be the last

 

[astro]

So now there's a timeline where Banner visits but doesn't get corrupted... how? Why?

You're postulating so much to justify your theory that the movie doesn't say or show.

TAO tells him ALL reality is the gold strand.

She tells him the stones keep the flow of time together.

She tells him taking the stone will create a NEW reality, and shows it as a black branch from the main reality.


And your explanation is "she wasn't talking about Banner's reality to begin with, clearly". You're reverse engineering the scene to fit your theory.

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Exactly.

 

[DeltaRed]

I think the fact there is going to be a Loki TV show suggest there will indeed be a new timeline after he stole the Tesseract that didn't just disappear because Cap went back to the 70s. But I suppose until then we'll just have to go round in circles.

 

[astro]

I think the fact there is going to be a Loki TV show suggest there will indeed be a new timeline after he stole the Tesseract that didn't just disappear because Cap went back to the 70s. But I suppose until then we'll just have to go round in circles.

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Cap couldn't ever return that specific stone though.

 

[Deleted member 1248]

They create a parallel universe the moment they time travel though.

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Correct. People aren't latching on to this. The act of time travel automatically creates a new timeline no matter what because they're inserting themselves into a time and place where they're not supposed to be. It's just that not all instances of time travel necessarily lead to terrible things for the new timeline.

 

[Deleted member 30411]

This means that each future that Strange looked at became a timeline and so therefore there are still 14m timelines where the avengers fail that need to be traveled back to and fixed because how unfair is it to just save your own timeline when you know others exist now. I mean, really there are infinite timelines. Infinite times where the world is fucked up by thanos or some other threat and yet our heroes get all uppity about 1 timeline? Pfft... the Avengers are terrible, self centered people.

 

[Visanideth]

The branch is black, which is a visual indicator that the change caused by taking the stone and not returning it would be a disaster.

There is a branch also created by Banner visiting her as well, but there's no need for her to show that because that alone would not be cause for disaster.

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But what is the clear branch?

Banner taking the stone creates a black branch, but TAO states he's just corrupting her NEW reality, not creating multiple ones.

She doesn't say "You'll create several new timelines, one of which is doomed". She says they'll create ONE new timeline, her NEW timeline. She shows time splitting at the exact point the event happens.

You need to create a convoluted explanation where she's showing Banner something different that what she's referring too and implying things she doesn't show "because there's no need" because the Russos wanted their cake and eat it.

It's fine, just don't tell people they're dumb for saying this isn't particularly clever or consistent.

 

[astro]

Correct. People aren't latching on to this. The act of time travel automatically creates a new timeline no matter what because they're inserting themselves into a time and place where they're not supposed to be. It's just that not all instances of time travel necessarily lead to terrible things for the new timeline.

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That is how it works in theory of time travel, yes.

But TAO and Banner's conversation is VERY clear about how it works in the MCU universe with the stones and their control over the flow of time.

If this doesn't align with other parts of the MCU then that's an error in writing.

 

[Sephzilla]

Okay, here's a crude MS Paint drawing explaining this shit.

The Ancient One explaining to Banner the impacts of removing an infinity stone from the timeline are told from the perspective of the current timeline the Ancient One is currently existing in. She's only concerned with the cosmic impact of removing an infinity stone from the timeline and the possible impacts it would have on that timeline. Removing infinity stones from that timeline will cause branching splinters based off of that current timeline she's existing in. The black branch in her demonstration only factors in alternate timelines based on the removal of infinity stones, this does not factor in Quantum Realm travel what so ever.

In her demonstration she shows how removing an Infinity Stone would affect that timeline, and Banner counterpoints by showing that replacing the stones the moment they were plucked from the timeline would simply remove the alternate branches that are created from infinity stone removal. It doesn't account for quantum realm caused timelines what so ever.

Quantum Realm timelines and Infinity Stone removal timelines are two completely separate things and the conversation between Banner and the Ancient One only concerns the latter, not the former. The Ancient One isn't concerned about alternate timelines created through Quantum Realm usage because those timelines The Avengers create still contain all of the Infinity Stones, thus the cosmic balance of the universe in those timelines are still in tact.

 

[Chikor]

this is never a good justification, era/the internet in general will fling poo about quite literally anything

people grapple with clearly understood things all the time, this isn't the first time nor will it be the last

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It's not a justification.
It's just when you say that something is as clear as it can be, having a ton of people who don't seem to be clear about it kinda fly in the face on that assertion.
Stuff that are really "clear as they can be" don't need charts and paragraph of texts to explain them.

 

[Visanideth]

Correct. People aren't latching on to this. The act of time travel automatically creates a new timeline no matter what because they're inserting themselves into a time and place where they're not supposed to be. It's just that not all instances of time travel necessarily lead to terrible things for the new timeline.

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Notice that this is never stated in the movie; it's something the Russos said in interviews once they got confronted with the idea they created a monstrous version of Cap.

 

[Deleted member 2145]

So now there's a timeline where Banner visits but doesn't get corrupted... how? Why?

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not sure what you're asking but their timeline doesn't get corrupted because they return the stones

TAO tells him ALL reality is the gold strand.

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she doesn't actually

She tells him taking the stone will create a NEW reality, and shows it as a black branch from the main reality.

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yes a new branch reality branching off from their main timeline

And your explanation is "she wasn't talking about Banner's reality to begin with, clearly". You're reverse engineering the scene to fit your theory.

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not at all

she literally presents a distinction between her reality and banner's

her timeline is one where the future avengers show up during the battle of new york and banner comes to visit her which is different from our timeline that we see in avengers 2012. it actually is clear as can be, people are just muddling it up for themselves.

 

[Parthenios]

Correct. People aren't latching on to this. The act of time travel automatically creates a new timeline no matter what because they're inserting themselves into a time and place where they're not supposed to be. It's just that not all instances of time travel necessarily lead to terrible things for the new timeline.

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Yep. Clint taking the baseball mitt created a parallel universe, just one that would look exactly like ours sans a glove.

 

[astro]

Okay, here's a crude MS Paint drawing explaining this shit.

The Ancient One explaining to Banner the impacts of removing an infinity stone from the timeline are told from the perspective of the current timeline the Ancient One is currently existing in. She's only concerned with the cosmic impact of removing an infinity stone from the timeline and the possible impacts it would have on that timeline. Removing infinity stones from that timeline will cause branching splinters based off of that current timeline she's existing in. The black branch in her demonstration only factors in alternate timelines based on the removal of infinity stones, this does not factor in Quantum Realm travel what so ever.

In her demonstration she shows how removing an Infinity Stone would affect that timeline, and Banner counterpoints by showing that replacing the stones the moment they were plucked from the timeline would simply remove the alternate branches that are created from infinity stone removal. It doesn't account for quantum realm caused timelines what so ever.

Quantum Realm timelines and Infinity Stone removal timelines are two completely separate things and the conversation between Banner and the Ancient One only concerns the latter, not the former. The Ancient One isn't concerned about alternate timelines created through Quantum Realm usage because those timelines The Avengers create still contain all of the Infinity Stones, thus the cosmic balance of the universe in those timelines are still in tact.

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He says Erase it.

Reinsert it chronologically.

Like it never happened.

 

[Visanideth]

Okay, here's a crude MS Paint drawing explaining this shit.

The Ancient One explaining to Banner the impacts of removing an infinity stone from the timeline are told from the perspective of the current timeline the Ancient One is currently existing in. She's only concerned with the cosmic impact of removing an infinity stone from the timeline and the possible impacts it would have on that timeline. Removing infinity stones from that timeline will cause branching splinters based off of that current timeline she's existing in. The black branch in her demonstration only factors in alternate timelines based on the removal of infinity stones, this does not factor in Quantum Realm travel what so ever.

In her demonstration she shows how removing an Infinity Stone would affect that timeline, and Banner counterpoints by showing that replacing the stones the moment they were plucked from the timeline would simply remove the alternate branches that are created from infinity stone removal. It doesn't account for quantum realm caused timelines what so ever.

Quantum Realm timelines and Infinity Stone removal timelines are two completely separate things and the conversation between Banner and the Ancient One only concerns the latter, not the former. The Ancient One isn't concerned about alternate timelines created through Quantum Realm usage because those timelines The Avengers create still contain all of the Infinity Stones, thus the cosmic balance of the universe in those timelines are still in tact.

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The fact that you need to redraw the graphics and postulate TAO omitted something should tip you off.

But again, assuming you're right, why does TAO's reality branch off, if Banner is taking the stone away? If this is not Banner's timeline, and that's still the future for TAO, why does it branch instead of just being corrupted, all of it?

 

[Deleted member 2145]

It's not a justification.
It's just when you say that something is as clear as it can be, having a ton of people who don't seem to be clear about it kinda fly in the face on that assertion.
Stuff that are really "clear as they can be" don't need charts and paragraph of texts to explain them.

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you're using two bad justifications in a row. things can be clear and people can still be confused by them. literally happens all the time. marginal tax rates, for instance. and the whole "if you have to use that many words that means it's not clear" is just an awful twitter-era character-limited take. neither of those reasons changes anything.

 

[Yasuke]

and they already seem to be ret-conning other things like Cap not being able to lift in a film they had nothing to do with... so their word is not absolute.

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That's not a retcon. Whedon said himself years ago that, Steve was always capable of lifting Mjolnir.

 

[astro]

The fact that you need to redraw the graphics and postulate TAO omitted something should tip you off.

But again, assuming you're right, why does TAO's reality branch off, if Banner is taking the stone away? If this is not Banner's timeline, and that's still the future for TAO, why does it branch instead of just being corrupted, all of it?

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Exactly.

 

[Visanideth]

not sure what you're asking but their timeline doesn't get corrupted because they return the stones



she doesn't actually



yes a new branch reality branching off from their main timeline



not at all

she literally presents a distinction between her reality and banner's

her timeline is one where the future avengers show up during the battle of new york and banner comes to visit her which is different from our timeline that we see in avengers 2012. it actually is clear as can be, people are just muddling it up for themselves.

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No, sorry. You didn't address a single point.

Let's try slower.


Which reality is TAO showing with her gold strand, hers or Banner's?

 

[Sephzilla]

He says Erase it.

Reinsert it chronologically.

Like it never happened.

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He's referring to erasing the black corrupted branch, not the entire timeline as a whole.

The fact that you need to redraw the graphics and postulate TAO omitted something should tip you off.

But again, assuming you're right, why does TAO's reality branch off, if Banner is taking the stone away? If this is not Banner's timeline, and that's still the future for TAO, why does it branch instead of just being corrupted, all of it?

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Because the black branch is that new alternate timeline w/out an infinity stone while the core orange branch is the alternate timeline with the infinity stones.

 

[astro]

That's not a retcon. Whedon said himself years ago that, Steve was always capable of lifting Mjolnir.

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That's not what the scene shows at all, it's badly filmed and framed if that was the case. He is very clearly straining hard.

 

[Visanideth]

That's not a retcon. Whedon said himself years ago that, Steve was always capable of lifting Mjolnir.

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Whedon talked years ago about something we saw 2 weeks ago?

Time travel is a bitch! :P

 

[Deleted member 2145]

No, sorry. You didn't address a single point.

Let's try slower.


Which reality is TAO showing with her gold strand, hers or Banner's?

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I actually addressed them all one by one

she is showing her timeline

 

[astro]

I'm out until this current version of the time debate dies out.

Visanideth is correct.

Good luck fighting the good fight!

 

[Visanideth]

Because the black branch is that new alternate timeline w/out an infinity stone while the core orange branch is the alternate timeline with the infinity stones.

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So Banner is creating a new timeline the second he does time travel, that reality becomes parallel and identical to his own, then he takes off the stone and creates a new strand in this other reality so now there's 3.

All this while TAO shows him a pretty gold strand and says "that's very nice for YOUR reality" pointing clearly at the gold strand that actually isn't Banner's reality but her own, alternate one which still has the stones for reasons and that we'll never talk about again.
This is your super-easy, barely an inconvenience explanation?

"It's all really clear once you assume they're looking at TAO's reality but talking about Banner's one. How's that not intuitive?".

 

[Visanideth]

I actually addressed them all one by one

she is showing her timeline

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She's showing her timeline while pointing at it and calling it "your timeline". Gotcha!

 

[Chikor]

you're using two bad justifications in a row. things can be clear and people can still be confused by them. literally happens all the time. marginal tax rates, for instance. and the whole "if you have to use that many words that means it's not clear" is just an awful twitter-era character-limited take. neither of those reasons changes anything.

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Again, I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm just challenging your assertion.
There are movies with time travel when the rules are pretty damn clear to most people, even if said rules don't make a lot of sense (Back to the Future is probably the best example of that). I don't think Endgame is like that, and yes, I think this thread is supporting evidence.

And for the record, this is not a huge knock on the film in my book, as I said before, I don't think they tried to create a super coherent time travel framework and I think that's generally fine.

p.s.
Marginal taxes are misunderstood because you have one political party and a ton of the media actively lying about them in an attempt to create a public misunderstanding of what they are for political reasons. I don't think that super relevant to this movie.