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Game of Thrones S8, Apr 14-May 19 @9PM EDT |OT| Aunt-Man and the Frost

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Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,640
Because the reasons people call Holdo stupid are rooted in sexism because there's no way to spin her actions as wrong without literally being an example of what mansplaining looks like.
I don't mean to derail this into a Star Wars discussion but good lord there are criticisms of Holdo's character that aren't rooted in sexism.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,997
Because he didn't have time. That was supposed to be one of the big moments that would stick with you. We've seen Jon always go out of his way to help Sam over the seasons. This time it was hell on earth, for all the marbles. There was no time. He had to find the NK of *everything* was going to end. He felt the impending loss of Sam, but the big picture forced him to push on.

It was a wonderful moment.
And then Jon ends up doing nothing for the rest of the episode.
 
Oct 26, 2017
16,376
I haven't gone back to rewatch the scene... Was the timing such that the NK only had one hand free when he turned around to grab Arya? Maybe Bran saw what was unfolding and gave Theon what he needed so that it played out just like that?
The NK grabbed Arya's neck and hand.

And then Jon ends up doing nothing for the rest of the episode.
That still doesn't invalidate his choice to try and go end things. Even up until the very end he was still trying.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,906
Miami, FL
I dont know why people are jumping the gun with saying Bran didnt do shit
because he literally didn't do shit. lol.

He didn't go find some backup, he didn't provide any recon, and 3ER mode was surely not required for something Cersei related. Even if it was, it wasn't necessary in that fuckin moment. c'mon son.

Yes, I was expecting the crows to do something like attacking the NK on the dragon. Unfortunately, there are some loose ends.
agree.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,082
Yet we never EVER see those same fucking nerds call male characters mary sues or gary stus when they achieve the impossible or do anything significant in a plot even when it's unearned.
Ymmv, but when I read 'Mary Sues', I usually think in perfect male heroes from trashy animes like the main characters of Mahouka or SAO that are done so viewers can self-insert as them. They are memes about them about how stupidly good they are. You can go to the anime thread to see they are mostly hated by the community. There are a few like them in fantasy and scifi novels too, all powerful heroes that also are loved by chicks, all very a nerd dream.

If we limit ourselves to popular characters, the first that comes to my mind are characters like James Bond or Batman?

Again, ymmv.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,590
Because he didn't have time. That was supposed to be one of the big moments that would stick with you. We've seen Jon always go out of his way to help Sam over the seasons. This time it was hell on earth, for all the marbles. There was no time. He had to find the NK of *everything* was going to end. He felt the impending loss of Sam, but the big picture forced him to push on.

It was a wonderful moment.
I buy this, but again, the stakes ended up feeling so low.

What did this same kind of scene better: Snowpiercer. That moment where Chris Evans sees a friend in need
, but knows he has to do something else or they'll fail, has all the more resonance because that decision does end up with his friend dead, even if it was the "right" one for moving forward.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,207
You’re going to learn just as Stannis did, that prophecies are bullshit.
I can't really agree here. This story (not necessarily the show, so I may lose points here) is filled to the brim with prophecies and visions that have ultimately proved to be true. While many have been misinterpreted (aka thinking it is about one person or one place, but its actually about something different) they've ultimately been quite accurate. I don't think GRRM has placed so many in the story to say "look here, prophecies are bs" but more to say "don't rely on prophecies and think ''I'm the chosen one and therefore I will win', because that won't always work out for you".
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,344
It feels like... You're trying so hard to defend the show that you're not making salient points.

Jorah and Theon are no longer important to the flow of the story. Arguably, Jorah should have died after he delivered Tyrion to Dany from greyscale. Instead, they kept him around for his death yesterday... Not the worst way to go out, but ya know.

And Theon's last stand was satisfying, but he is far from a major or important character at this point. He also served nothing as far as the overall plot is concerned.
Hahaha it’s more that I actually liked both characters and was particuarly sad to see Jorah go, though it was expected. I agree that both characters had reached natural conclusions to their arcs, and their deaths made sense.
 
Oct 26, 2017
16,376
Which she failed at against a handful of them yes.
She didn't fail the stealth section rewatch the scene. She made it past the room without alerting them, even going so far as to use sound lures. But a random horde was storming a different section of the castle and ended up where she was. It was literally a case of bad luck

Ymmv, but when I read 'Mary Sues', I usually think in perfect male heroes from trashy animes like the main characters of Mahouka or SAO that are done so viewers can self-insert as them.
Jon is literally that type of character. Arya is nowhere near close to being a mary sue. You're missing the overall point that literally every single woman in fiction who does something significant or gets highlights no matter how much justification exists to justify their skillset is referred to as a mary sue. This isn't even the first time this has happened with this show. When Brienne beat the Hound there were losers calling her a mary sue. It's their short hand for "stop letting female characters be power fantasies too."
 
Oct 25, 2017
848
Finally watched and... I'm a bit disappointed ultimately. The episode was shot fantastically, cinematography and scale top notch. Some incredible moments in the mix like Arya in the library, Lyanna Mormont's final stab at the giant and of course, Arya's killing blow move with the call back to her spar with Brienne. But there were so many things that didn't work for me.

The plot armour almost everyone seemed to have, made worse by the constant attempts at building tension by cutting away from a hero character just as a half dozen wights swarm them. Only to jump back later and they'd still be fighting off the dead fine and dandy.

Brienne and Jamie pinned, suffocated and generally swarmed by the dead but every time being fine. Jon being literally surrounded after the Night King turned about and raised them, cut away and back and he's deftly dealing with them one by one before the dragon save. Jorah and Dany in the middle of nowhere fighting off the dead too. There are hundreds of thousands of these things, and they're holding them off? (And don't get me started on Sam)

I'd say my biggest issue is between Bran and the Night King + White Walkers. I'm assuming there will be explanations in the subsequent episodes, but for the time being... what the hell was Bran doing beyond being bait? What was he warging into? I wish there was more pay off to his long ass journey being hauled across the seven kingdoms beyond his encyclopedia. And the Night King, he finally arrives in the land of the living with his dragon after 8 seasons and... they're dealt with in an episode. Done.

For Christ sake the White Walkers were background extras...
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,495
That ending was the most insulting thing the show ever did.
The long night came and went in one hour, no main characters died. All the prophecy, valyrian swords, lore meant nothing as spectacle triumphed yet again over reason, logic and respecting the events in the show itself over the past 8 seasons.
Dumb and Dumber really outdid themselves here, which is amazing considering seasons 5,6 and 7.

P.S. The gloating and smugness in post episode wrap ups from them is so funny.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,085
You’re going to learn just as Stannis did, that prophecies are bullshit.
Bingo. Hell, you could probably take a stab at twisting the prophecy so it fits Arya, too. That's the whole thing with these prophecies: they're vague and they're bullshit.

Arya's been training for so long, and even showcased how stealthily she could move earlier in the same damn episode. The Night King still saw her coming, too: it's only her sleight of hand that saved the day. Something a real warrior like Jon never would've been able to pull, most like.

The resolution wasn't perfect. They could've built certain things up a bit better. But ultimately, this was some damn good television.
 
Nov 15, 2017
3,174
"Sam is awesome because he did stuff in the past," isn't a good reason for him to have survived when literally thousands of other more capable soldiers couldn't. You're kind of proving their point right, that fan favorite characters are being kept alive simply because they're fan favorites.
What's wrong with that? And Sam is not a fan favorite, IMO. Very few give much of a shit for him anymore, but I love him.

Some characters shouldn't be killed. It wouldn't be a shock, it would just piss off.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,716
Colorado
I keep going back and forth on the episode. I think in terms of big battle episodes, I enjoyed Battle of the Bastards more. But that is also one of my favorite episodes in the whole series, so it was always going to be hard to top. I thought the scene with Arya sneaking around the library was weird and out of place. But other than that, I thought it was fine. Also, I thought it was known that if the Night King dies, the army of the dead disappears as well. It also seemed like there was little planning on the side of the living, but once the Dothraki got taken out almost instantly, it was pretty much survival mode after that.

But one thing I just thought of: this is a show that has in seasons past subverted expectations with killing off main characters and twists. Knowing that makes Arya killing the Night King fit in this series. We all expected Jon Snow to have this epic sword fight with the Night King, or something with Bran. But it turns out to be a sneak attack by Arya that takes out the Night King, and the more I think about it, the more I like it. At first my impression was "how did she get there?" But I didn't realize the weirwood tree was inside the castle walls, and I forgot about her assassin training. Yeah, it's not the most airtight reasoning, but it could be worse.

I think I need to watch it again to be honest. But to be real, after three episodes I've been enjoying this season way more than last season. My biggest gripe with the episode last night was it didn't feel as climactic as it should have been since they've been building up this battle since the very first scene.
 

RKR

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,378
NL
He did things the way he usually would, but his reasons for it were not really there. Like what advantage does he gain by playing Arya against Sansa? If he were to plot against anyone it would be John since his goal is the Iron Throne.

Really don't mind him getting taken out like a bitch, though.
He was on borrowed time when he stepped foot into Winterfell. When he gave the dagger to Bran I knew he signed his death sentence, its the dagger he betrayed Ned with and Bran can see shit. I was glad he went out like a little bitch. He was cool in the earlier episodes but him playing Sansa against Arya was really useless. Like he just had to con people because he was a con man as long as he was on the screen and they had nothing for him left so they probably wrote this Arya - Sansa - LF story to create a decent reason to finally kill him off.
 
OP
OP
shira

shira

Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,464
I wonder how Hotpie is doing?
Browning the butter

That ending was the most insulting thing the show ever did.
The long night came and went in one hour, no main characters died. All the prophecy, valyrian swords, lore meant nothing as spectacle triumphed yet again over reason, logic and respecting the events in the show itself over the past 8 seasons.
Dumb and Dumber really outdid themselves here, which is amazing considering seasons 5,6 and 7.

P.S. The gloating and smugness in post episode wrap ups from them is so funny.
Star Wars here we come.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,906
Miami, FL
I buy this, but again, the stakes ended up feeling so low.

What did this same kind of scene better: Snowpiercer. That moment where Chris Evans sees a friend in need
, but knows he has to do something else or they'll fail, has all the more resonance because that decision does end up with his friend dead, even if it was the "right" one for moving forward.
I don't disagree at all. I'm more or less just paraphrasing what the actual directors said about that sequence in that 40 minute "making of" video posted on the last page or so (I watched da whole thing).
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,360
When she was told that the army of the dead had toppled the only real defense they had against them she responded with "good". She also nuked half of Kings Landing with wildfire rather than lose the power she had gained.




Cersei is out of her mind as well.
The idea that so many fans (even here on ERA) hold of Cersei being a mastermind is laughable. She has been insane and irrational since the very start of the show.
 
Nov 15, 2017
3,174
That ending was the most insulting thing the show ever did.
The long night came and went in one hour, no main characters died. All the prophecy, valyrian swords, lore meant nothing as spectacle triumphed yet again over reason, logic and respecting the events in the show itself over the past 8 seasons.
Dumb and Dumber really outdid themselves here, which is amazing considering seasons 5,6 and 7.

P.S. The gloating and smugness in post episode wrap ups from them is so funny.
A) it was almost 90 minutes
B) it wasn't 90 minutes for them
C) The "long night" would have only been "long" if the walkers had won.
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
9,627
Maybe the Azor Ahai twist will be that Cersei is the Darkness, and Jon Snow, being Azor Ahai, and Longclaw being Lightbringer, is the one who take her out somehow, and he had to kill Dany as his Nissa-Nissa because she became a problem
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,518
Cept he's not.

She becomes super assassin at the end of season 6.
She goes about Westeros murdering between then and now. I mean she goes from Essos back to Westeros, on here way to King's Landing from the Twins, then back up to Winterfell in the course of like two episodes.

The show has all sorts of time cuts and such that seem like fast travel, but if you grant that actual time has gone by for these travelings to happen, you gotta think shit was going on that is unseen in the show? I dunno.
 

captive

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,445
Houston
This is total bullshit.

By your logic, the show should have lost viewers after Ned was killed. Even more after Robb and Catelyn were killed.

But yet, viewership has increased every season. It's almost like viewers appreciate that this is a show where anything can happen at any time, and to not get too attached to main characters.
Who cares about viewership at this point? Game of Thrones is insanely popular. If anything, you can get away with such drastic measures precisely because the show is so popular. And need I remind you that the show gained popularity because its mantra of "no one is safe"?
to both of you. bullshit. First of all people like you or the people i quoted have been complaining about plot armor since like season 1. So yes not killing off your shows favorite characters over 7 seasons is kind of important.
Ned was never truly a main character, obviously. He was presented as such and then killed for the "subversion effect" that some of you are so in love with. Using the Starks since they're literally the first named characters introduced to us. And yet the only other important starks to die were Catelyn and Robb, Cat arguably wasn't all that important. At a certain point you have to have these characters to continue the story. It wouldn't make any sense and it would be really difficult to make the audience care about new characters trying to replace these ones. They're never going to kill Sansa or Arya or Bran for that matter. Until the last episode if at all. Nor will they kill Jon Snow. So like if your looking for all of these characters to die, they're highly unlikely to do so. Of the A-list characters Cersei and Dany are the only two i would put at anything higher than 50% chance of dying.

The financial/business reasons for not killing off characters is hardly a defense for why they have plot armor.
considering that the main job of HBO is to make money, producing unprofitable shows is unlikely to keep new shows coming.


for all of you name one show not named CSI or Law Order bullshit that replaced or killed off well loved main characters and continued success?
 
Jan 10, 2018
2,126
Umeå, Sweden
Incredible episode. One of my favorite battle scenes ever. Goose bumps all the way.

I’m wondering though... the move where Arya dropped the dagger into her right hand; had that particular move occured in a previous episode? I felt like I’d seen it somewhere before. Maybe a different movie, if not in GoT?
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,981
I'm seeing some people questioning why Melisandre just decided to die at the end in various places

Mel probably used up all of her power, or prayed to be able to help in the fight against the Others in exchange for her life. That's why she was so sure she would die before the dawn when Davos went to confront her. The fact that she can suddenly use real deal pyromancy and appeared apparently magically from the darkness in the north implies that her life fire, her power is burning as bright as she possibly can before her flame goes out. She completed the goal of her very long life in the name of her god, and now she can rest.

The way she went out was great, in my opinion. If she was just hanging around in the background after the White Walker army has been defeated, it would have been dumb. We don't need another Varys hanging around.
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,305
I loved the first 10 minutes of the episode, I think most people do. The show kind of fell apart near the end, but it was still good and memorable. I was shocked, SHOCKED to see Arya jump into frame. I liked the episode overall, it was only hours later and now the day after that I have just minor annoyances with some of the execution and also the entire army of the dead being built up for 7 seasons only for it to end in 1 battle and so abruptly feels.. its feels cheapened like I was just cut with a dull knife or some shit.

I hope they still have some big scenes, big deaths left. The final twist that could correct any mistakes this episode made would be that Little Finger did indeed fake his death and he comes back in some way near the end.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,889
England m8.
Incredible episode. One of my favorite battle scenes ever. Goose bumps all the way.

I’m wondering though... the move where Arya dropped the dagger into her right hand; had that particular move occured in a precious episode? I felt like I’d seen it somewhere before. Maybe a different movie, if not in GoT?
 
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