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Magic: The Gathering |OT| Throne of Eldraine - Will and Rowan's Excellent Adventure

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
9,710
Static abilities on planeswalkers was a huge mistake. They shouldn’t add value just by existing - they already do that with loyalty abilities and being a damage sink. Nissa is what she is because of her static. Take that away and she’s reasonable again. It essentially lets those PWs do two things a turn which is bogus.
This is a bad take. The majority of static abilities on Planeswalkers have been fine and they open a ton of new design space.
 
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TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,366
Yeah I mean, the concept of 'oh it does 2 things' isn't inherently bad, there are lots of cards that do more than one thing. It's just gotta be clearly in line costwise for what is effectively an enchantment PLUS a planeswalker in one.
 

Nordicus

Member
Oct 29, 2017
557
Finland
This is a bad take. The majority of static abilities on Planeswalkers have been fine and they open a ton of new design space.
Yeah, I thought a lot of planeswalkers in WAR that were had a static ability, but you can only down the loyalty, were interesting.

They were basically enchantments with a bit of limited extra value depending how greedy you wanted to be. Like, Narset's passive is maybe a little too much in some matchups, but if you use her loyalty ability once, you suddenly put her in lightning strike and phoenix range.

I thought WotC were trying to go into direction where Planeswalkers were "attackable enchantments", which would have made them ideal design for Bo1 because you'd not simply be hosed for not having enchantment/artifact removal on game 1. But that didn't seem to last
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,770
The unco PWs aren’t that interesting because you can’t tick them down to zero - meaning you aren’t actually given a choice. You just use them twice (usually) and then they’re just an attackable enchantment. Getting the choice between keeping them around for the static or getting one last activation would at least be interesting.

The way we’ve seen planeswalkers effectively have static abilities work in the past is either through generating emblems or through loyalty abilities that last an entire turn cycle. Again - it’s choice. The planeswalker doesn’t just create insane value - you have to make meaningful choices to maximize its efficiency.

Not all statics are like this. Making it uncounterable or hexproof would be interesting. Giving it delve or convoke might be interesting (or whatever that Theros mechanic is called - spoiler). It’s when their presence creates continuous value without having to take action that irritates me. Plus most of these planeswalkers have an incredibly linear play pattern because one of their abilities is functionally replaced by the static. It’s boring on top of being extra powerful. Planeswalkers should feel like powerful beings that joined the battle; the choices you have to make represent the planeswalkers taking meaningful action in the battle.

That’s why the best planeswalker template is the most overused - a little value in the plus ability, extra value on a minus, win the game (or close to it) on the “ultimate.” Obviously they need to mix it up for variety. I just think they were way off the mark with WAR.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,799
I’ll say I liked the WAR designs a lot and I’ve even seen Ashiokk and Narset in EDH. T3feri is EDH playable too. I really like that and being able to attack them makes it really interesting.
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
6,686
I was going to say, T3feri and Narset may be "playable" in EDH, but everything is playable, the more important category for EDH is "cards you can play and still be invited to play again next week". And most of the things you want to do with those cards probably takes them off the list.

(Ashiok's mostly alright, honestly.)
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,248
Also Jace is an alternative Lab Maniac that can draw by itself to win the game and is immune to creature removal and Abrupt Decay.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,029
I was going to say, T3feri and Narset may be "playable" in EDH, but everything is playable, the more important category for EDH is "cards you can play and still be invited to play again next week". And most of the things you want to do with those cards probably takes them off the list.

(Ashiok's mostly alright, honestly.)
Ashiok only nuking your GY and only hosing your tutors (including fetchlands and ramp) is highly disrespectful of opponents. Particularly when they also use them to mill themselves as a show of force that they get to still use their GY.

I think most of the PWs are fine from WAR when I'm being serious. They are just hella strong, even the weaker ones among them in EDH.

I would never play T3feri outside of combo or counterspell tribal decks though and advise against it since he doesn't just protect you from getting your shit countered.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,770
Would people be more amenable to passives on PWs if it was restricted to those without + abilities?
Most of the unco planeswalkers can’t spend their last loyalty point (most of them have 5 loyalty and spend 2 per). I hate those because they don’t give you a meaningful choice - you tick down twice then enjoy the passive forever. Something like Davriel is way more interesting. On the third turn, what do you need? Do you want to keep the passive or just trade him in for one last card?
 

Shugga

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,009
Most of the unco planeswalkers can’t spend their last loyalty point (most of them have 5 loyalty and spend 2 per). I hate those because they don’t give you a meaningful choice - you tick down twice then enjoy the passive forever. Something like Davriel is way more interesting. On the third turn, what do you need? Do you want to keep the passive or just trade him in for one last card?
Yeah 5 -2 PWs are boring. Narset, etc should have been 4 with -2 and the passive.
It would also make proliferate more interesting.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,799
Most of the unco planeswalkers can’t spend their last loyalty point (most of them have 5 loyalty and spend 2 per). I hate those because they don’t give you a meaningful choice - you tick down twice then enjoy the passive forever. Something like Davriel is way more interesting. On the third turn, what do you need? Do you want to keep the passive or just trade him in for one last card?
They don’t give you a meaningful choice, but they do give your opponents one when they must interact with it in order to remove it. I like that better.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,770
They don’t give you a meaningful choice, but they do give your opponents one when they must interact with it in order to remove it. I like that better.
?

The only choice they have is to remove it or not. Just like every planeswalker. There’s nothing inherent in the design of walkers with statics that make them more interesting to interact with than any other walker.
 

Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,478
?

The only choice they have is to remove it or not. Just like every planeswalker. There’s nothing inherent in the design of walkers with statics that make them more interesting to interact with than any other walker.
I think the other poster meant it's more of a 'choice' to decide if the static ability is worth not attacking the player or not - unlike 'traditional' planeswalkers, the unco walkers can't use their abilities after 2-3 uses, so it's a judgement call on stopping the static effect vs getting the other player to zero life more quickly - compared to a normal planeswalker, who can always 'rebuild' loyalty on their own.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,029
Yeah you get the choice to ignore them and then get fucked when you forget about it. Because why would a PW say you can't draw cards, or whatever Tamiyo does right.
Because Tamiyo is known for protecting from discard and edicts.

I would have less of a problem with the PW statics/triggered abilities if they were more like Saheeli a core to their kit, instead most of them are throwaway that don't interact at all with the rest of their abilities.

I can't tell you the amount of times I've duressed someone with a Tamiyo or passed my turn intending to cast a spell on their turn with a teferi out. The best part was when I minus'd Lili to sac and my opponent conceded, only they had a tamiyo out, meaning both I and my opponent forgot about the passive.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,770
That’s a really good point. Saheeli, Ral, Davriel - those have effects directly connected to their play patterns. A lot of them don’t.

Ultimately if you really do a root cause analysis, it’s probably more due to “we have to come up with a shitload of new planeswalkers all at once” more than anything else. They went for quantity and quality suffered.
 

Joe Molotov

Member
Oct 25, 2017
273
I can't tell you the amount of times I've duressed someone with a Tamiyo or passed my turn intending to cast a spell on their turn with a teferi out. The best part was when I minus'd Lili to sac and my opponent conceded, only they had a tamiyo out, meaning both I and my opponent forgot about the passive.
I saw a player at FNM play Sorcerous Spyglass to shut off Oven while having a Karn out.
 

cagey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,593
The number of times I've mindlessly downticked Lil' Teferi to draw a card when there's a Narset in the top right corner on Arena is embarrassing.
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
6,686
Tamiyo protecting from sac effects really is just the most random fucking thing. Doesn't match her character, doesn't really work for me in her (current) colors, and every time it becomes relevant I have to be reminded that's what she does.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,029
Oh another funny story is how I died in EDH in a pretty commanding position because Tamiyo made Torment of Hailfire into deal 3 X times instead of saccing and/or discarding a variety of stuff I could have.

Teferi kind of gets a pass on his passive because it's a callback to his original version just overpowered on a card that costs 1WU instead of 2UUU
 

Yeef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
879
New York
I think if the passives on a lot of the WAR walkers had been turned into {0}: Until your next turn [blah] it would make for more interesting gameplay in a lot of cases.
 
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SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,063
Seems like every pack includes one "playtest card", two rare cards, and one old-border card. The non-playtest cards are random cards from as far back as Mercadian Masques, as far as we've confirmed.

Some cards



 

acheron_xl

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,796
MSN, WI
It's kinda weird the levels they're going to to make the random cards just look like dead stock instead of newly printed cards.

I hope boxes of this are obtainable.
 

Bigkrev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,760
So, is Mana Crypt the only Mythic that has been posted?
I wonder if Mythics have a super low drop rate in the set- you would figure more people would be posting them
 
Star City Games no longer including Legacy in Open tournaments New

Bigkrev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,760

SCG is completely removing Legacy from it's opens, "will spotlight the event at special events, like one or both of our SCGCons". Pioneer takes it's place in teams.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
716
OP
OP
SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,063


Each booster pack contains:
* Two commons/uncommons for each color
* One multicolored common/uncommon
* One artifact or land common/uncommon
* One playtest card
* One rare/mythic rare from M15 forward
* One pre-M15 original frame card