Oct 27, 2017
17,973
fyi wv currently has a state trans athlete ban moving forward

There is a suit in CT as well. Fortunately Biden removed Trump's justice dept. joining the case.

Any vote like this, whether direct or for procedural reasons or whatever, is sending a direct message about identity. Especially with the local legislative situation in WV that people have expressly mentioned. "Giving cover" for this is still an offense and should be recognized as such.

No one is saying to throw out his votes when he caucuses with the party. But to say that's all that matters, is really unfortunate - especially with active state legislation and lawsuits in multiple states.
 

PKrockin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,260
I feel so bad for the trans community on this forum. Being treated as a bargaining chip for political gains by politicians, and people on this forum telling them that voting against their interest is good, actually. You just need to be on top of the 4D chess!

Voting against trans interests makes you a transphobe. Full stop. Defending that makes you, at the very least, a transphobia apologist.
West Virginians voting for Joe Manchin in 2018 is how we're going to get a vote on the Equality Act. Their choice was between a transphobe whose presence in the senate will guaranteed stonewall any federal LGBT protections and possibly erode them, or a transphobe whose presence will preserve current protections and offer a chance of expanding them.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I feel so bad for the trans community on this forum. Being treated as a bargaining chip for political gains by politicians, and people on this forum telling them that voting against their interest is good, actually. You just need to be on top of the 4D chess!

Voting against trans interests makes you a transphobe. Full stop. Defending that makes you, at the very least, a transphobia apologist.
This

Lots of gaslighting from posters about what people are actually upset about here
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,432
You went from why wouldn't he vote for it to he should have abstained and both are terrible looks

Eh, I'll accept that my first comment was a terrible look since he simply could have abstained. But, I don't expect Manchin to actively vote against anti-LGBTQ+ legislation, the man has never been an ally. At best, I'd hope he just keep quiet and not impede pro-LGTBTQ+ efforts. But, I've also been posting while tipsy so take that as you will.
 

Deleted member 2620

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
I feel so bad for the trans community on this forum. Being treated as a bargaining chip for political gains by politicians, and people on this forum telling them that voting against their interest is good, actually. You just need to be on top of the 4D chess!

Voting against trans interests makes you a transphobe. Full stop. Defending that makes you, at the very least, a transphobia apologist.
100%
 

bruhaha

Member
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
Another thread where I see all of the blame ascribed to Maine voters and none to Gideon being an awful candidate. Maine may usually go 3/4th blue comfortably, but it's hardly a wealthy state and has lot of struggles that Gideon utterly failed to touch upon when the other winning candidates including Collins were at least able to speak to the voters there. She ran behind every other candidate on the Democratic side, and that's not just cause Collins was this untouchable beloved moderate, plenty of people dislike Collins in Maine. The Democratic party cannot fail, it can only be failed. Every. Damn. Time.

Gideon won her primary with 72%. Maine Democrats chose her. Yes, Maine voters are absolutely to blame.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,601
Maybe we shouldn't be trying to jam pack this relief bill with a bunch of separate issues that will only drag out its passage.

Still, disgraceful how trans people are being treated by their representatives. This country is so backwards.
 

bruhaha

Member
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
Damn he was only try to give himself cover? Shit I thought he was just being transphobic. I'll be sure to let all the other trans people know. Though it is funny that he was willing to go against his voters when comes to the minimum wage or giving people bigger checks (things that are overwhelmingly popular in WV), but once trans people get involved then it becomes the time for him to listen to his voters. Very strange.

$15 minimum wage is not overwhelmingly popular in WV. The poll being circulated about min wage in WV is highly biased if you look at the way they asked the questions.

Quinnipiac, a high quality pollster, had a recent national poll for $15 with support at 61%, with Republican support at 32%. There is no way support is higher in WV which is a 69% Trump state.
 

AwShucks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,005
Manchin sucks but he votes on these things he knows won't pass cause it lets him stay senator in West fucking Virginia. Without Manchin the covid bill doesn't pass today. Which would you prefer?
 

Deleted member 2699

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
619
I feel so bad for the trans community on this forum. Being treated as a bargaining chip for political gains by politicians, and people on this forum telling them that voting against their interest is good, actually. You just need to be on top of the 4D chess!

Voting against trans interests makes you a transphobe. Full stop. Defending that makes you, at the very least, a transphobia apologist.

The few of us that are still here are used to it unfortunately.
 

shem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,955
Is it? If it gives him R cover in his state and was never going to pass, why wouldn't he vote for it?

WV also has one of the highest proportions of trans teens in HS's and manchins brother, a school admin, had done the same bathroom shit that R's were tarred and feathered for.

Maybe fuck off saying it doesn't matter? It does. You just don't care.

Sources:

 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
Gideon won her primary with 72%. Maine Democrats chose her. Yes, Maine voters are absolutely to blame.

Winning a primary does not equate to winning the general election, nor does it account for the time in between the primary and the actual election. I don't know why that's supposed to be a gotcha and by all accounts, Gideon was a really bad candidate who constantly pushed fund raising in a struggling state and ended up not even spending $10 million of it by the end. Golden won in the 2nd Congressional District when Trump won it as someone who has supported M4A in the past while she underperformed Biden across the board by 10 points.

You don't under-perform everyone else on the ticket that badly just because Maine likes "moderate darlings" in regards to a Collins who wasn't like exactly adored as much as just a known quantity. At some point, you the candidate have to be considered a failure. Also focusing on it as a national race generally tends to go more poorly for local elections and Gideon pushed hard for that alongside Greenfield and Cunningham, whereas I think with Georgia we saw keeping the focus on local issues ended up being a much smarter play that helped them win the majority.
 

Jordan117

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,055
Alabammy
When considering the political lean of the state they represent, Manchin is literally the most valuable Democrat in the Senate. Even at his worst, he is *far* more liberal than even a generic WV Republican would be, to say nothing of the extreme Trump kind that would feel confident winning there. (Also, when the left-wing Berniecrat Swearingen who unsuccessfully challenged Manchin ran against Moore Capito in 2020, she lost by more than 40 points, so hoping someone like her wins a primary challenge ain't a great solution.)

And it's not a 4-D chess thing. Primarying Manchin, or kicking him out of the caucus, or whatever "stop supporting him" means would just result in a Republican voting for the exact same kinds of anti-trans amendments except juiced with far more vicious rhetoric, followed up by more explicitly anti-trans bills they would author, alongside anti-healthcare, labor, voting rights, and myriad other critical votes that Manchin is more reliable on. Tossing Manchin would harm trans rights overall, not help. West Virginia isn't going to be electing a vocally pro-trans senator any time soon; in that context Manchin is the best we can realistically expect there, even if he's still bad. The solution, as ever, is to fight to elect the most progressive senator that can be elected in a given state in as many states as possible so that we don't have to rely on a transphobe's vote to get anything done.
 

bruhaha

Member
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
Winning a primary does not equate to winning the general election, nor does it account for the time in between the primary and the actual election. I don't know why that's supposed to be a gotcha and by all accounts, Gideon was a really bad candidate who constantly pushed fund raising in a struggling state and ended up not even spending $10 million of it by the end. Golden won in the 2nd Congressional District when Trump won it as someone who has supported M4A in the past while she underperformed Biden across the board by 10 points.

You don't under-perform everyone else on the ticket that badly just because Maine likes "moderate darlings" in regards to a Collins who wasn't like exactly adored as much as just a known quantity. At some point, you the candidate have to be considered a failure. Also focusing on it as a national race generally tends to go more poorly for local elections and Gideon pushed hard for that alongside Greenfield and Cunningham, whereas I think with Georgia we saw keeping the focus on local issues ended up being a much smarter play that helped them win the majority.

Where is the better candidate that does everything right then? She's a failure because she didn't do enough to win, but voters are still to blame for choosing her. Most state and local Dems underperformed Biden, so she's not unique in that respect. Of course Georgia is a different situation with the special election - Ossoff would've lost in November had Georgia not had the runoff rule

Edit: correction for Warnock's race.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,355
Eh, I'll accept that my first comment was a terrible look since he simply could have abstained. But, I don't expect Manchin to actively vote against anti-LGBTQ+ legislation, the man has never been an ally. At best, I'd hope he just keep quiet and not impede pro-LGTBTQ+ efforts. But, I've also been posting while tipsy so take that as you will.

I'll take that as a shitty excuse.
 

Otakunofuji

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,222
Joe Manchin has had a nonstop erection ever since he figured he could be The Decider (TM) for two years.
 

shem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,955
"You do realize without him this wouldn't have passed" Yes i'm not fucking dumb.

"You do realize any republican who would replace him would be worse" Yes i'm not fucking dumb.

"This vote doesn't matter it needed 60 votes anyway" People show you who they really are when the stakes are low. How you treat a waiter, someone in a lower rank at work, or when discussing how minorities (either LGBTQ, racial, or a combination of both) should feel about someone voting along with harmful stereotypes while presiding over a home state that is doing the same.

"Just wait until the equality act." Dog. That shit ain't passing. If manchin wouldn't overturn a fillibuster for a minimum wage increase what makes you think he would for the rights of LGBTQ people, the same people he needlessly attacked with this vote?

This is why that vote matters. It shows us who he is. It shows us his priorities. He's saying our rights don't matter and frankly so are you when you willfully paper over his actions that have direct implications for the next 6 months of legislation. You should be excoriating him for this vote and especially his stance on the fillibuster because his beliefs and intransigence will deny Democrats a chance to fix how fucked up our election system is and ensure rights for everyone.

I can't wait to go into those threads and see so many people enraged when key planks of D legislation can't even get a vote and say "Why are you upset, someone else from WV would be so much worse" like a fucking dolt.

But no lets just post "manchin cycle" for the 15th time while telling people his votes don't actually matter. Get a fucking clue.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Eh, I'll accept that my first comment was a terrible look since he simply could have abstained. But, I don't expect Manchin to actively vote against anti-LGBTQ+ legislation, the man has never been an ally. At best, I'd hope he just keep quiet and not impede pro-LGTBTQ+ efforts. But, I've also been posting while tipsy so take that as you will.
All this tells us is that you were accidentally honest
"You do realize without him this wouldn't have passed" Yes i'm not fucking dumb.

"You do realize any republican who would replace him would be worse" Yes i'm not fucking dumb.

"This vote doesn't matter it needed 60 votes anyway" People show you who they really are when the stakes are low. How you treat a waiter, someone in a lower rank at work, or when discussing how minorities (either LGBTQ, racial, or a combination of both) should feel about someone voting along with harmful stereotypes while presiding over a home state that is doing the same.

"Just wait until the equality act." Dog. That shit ain't passing. If manchin wouldn't overturn a fillibuster for a minimum wage increase what makes you think he would for the rights of LGBTQ people, the same people he needlessly attacked with this vote?

This is why that vote matters. It shows us who he is. It shows us his priorities. He's saying our rights don't matter and frankly so are you when you willfully paper over his actions that have direct implications for the next 6 months of legislation. You should be excoriating him for this vote and especially his stance on the fillibuster because his beliefs and intransigence will deny Democrats a chance to fix how fucked up our election system is and ensure rights for everyone.

I can't wait to go into those threads and see so many people enraged when key planks of D legislation can't even get a vote and say "Why are you upset, someone else from WV would be so much worse" like a fucking dolt.

But no lets just post "manchin cycle" for the 15th time while telling people his votes don't actually matter. Get a fucking clue.
Good post, I expect to it to be generally ignored. This thread is even more embarrassing than the Bill Burr one, and damn was that bad
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,500
I still can't believe this sort of stuff is allowed, what actual benefit is there to be able to add clauses and extra stuff that has nothing to do with the actual bill or law?

Also this thread is depressing to read :(
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,942
DFW
It's long past time people realized that Joe Manchin isn't some benevolent 4D chess player safeguarding the rights and interests of his most marginalized constituents while tactically casting inconsequential votes... he's just a piece of shit with awful views who sometimes votes the right way.

Yes, I know he's better than a Republican. Yes, he'll be replaced by a Republican. But Manchin does NOT need to be praised just because he's better than the alternative.
 

Mekanos

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,693
Really dispiriting but unsurprising thread, trans people (again) being used as a political football with no consideration to how they actually feel. Fuck Manchin and fuck anyone making excuses for his ass.
 

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
9,203
This shit makes me so angry, not only at the transphobia but everything seems to be targeted towards Trans women too.

It's like these fuckers have no Idea Trans men exist. But no it's "we don't want biological men in women's toilets or playing on women's teams". (🤮 to the term "biological male and biological female" btw).

Not saying transphobia doesn't exist for Trans Men but sometimes I feel that bigots seem laser focused on Trans Women.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
36,056
"You do realize without him this wouldn't have passed" Yes i'm not fucking dumb.

"You do realize any republican who would replace him would be worse" Yes i'm not fucking dumb.

"This vote doesn't matter it needed 60 votes anyway" People show you who they really are when the stakes are low. How you treat a waiter, someone in a lower rank at work, or when discussing how minorities (either LGBTQ, racial, or a combination of both) should feel about someone voting along with harmful stereotypes while presiding over a home state that is doing the same.

"Just wait until the equality act." Dog. That shit ain't passing. If manchin wouldn't overturn a fillibuster for a minimum wage increase what makes you think he would for the rights of LGBTQ people, the same people he needlessly attacked with this vote?

This is why that vote matters. It shows us who he is. It shows us his priorities. He's saying our rights don't matter and frankly so are you when you willfully paper over his actions that have direct implications for the next 6 months of legislation. You should be excoriating him for this vote and especially his stance on the fillibuster because his beliefs and intransigence will deny Democrats a chance to fix how fucked up our election system is and ensure rights for everyone.

I can't wait to go into those threads and see so many people enraged when key planks of D legislation can't even get a vote and say "Why are you upset, someone else from WV would be so much worse" like a fucking dolt.

But no lets just post "manchin cycle" for the 15th time while telling people his votes don't actually matter. Get a fucking clue.

I'm not informed enough about the person to talk on Manchin himself, but posters reverting to "real politics", which can otherwise be described in a simpler and clearer way as playing the game, is pretty much a quick shortcut to being honest about the rights they don't care about and the people they don't consider.
 

madstarr12

Member
Jan 25, 2018
2,580
Manchin is awful. Theres no excuse for his vote.

He's unfortunately the best we're getting out of West Virginia.
 

GoldenEye 007

Roll Tide, Y'all!
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,835
Texas
It's long past time people realized that Joe Manchin isn't some benevolent 4D chess player safeguarding the rights and interests of his most marginalized constituents while tactically casting inconsequential votes... he's just a piece of shit with awful views who sometimes votes the right way.

Yes, I know he's better than a Republican. Yes, he'll be replaced by a Republican. But Manchin does NOT need to be praised just because he's better than the alternative.
Are people praising him? I don't know how many out there praise him. Now, do some realize that this is the current reality that the Dem Senate is in? That he must be placated in order to have any hopes of getting good legislation through until more Dems can win in other states, thus reducing his influence.

Yes, he's a piece of shit. But right now, he's a necessary one. It's going to be an annoying 2 years with him. But I'll take it if other states can't get better Dem Senators elected versus the alternative.
 
Oct 27, 2017
10,660
It's long past time people realized that Joe Manchin isn't some benevolent 4D chess player safeguarding the rights and interests of his most marginalized constituents while tactically casting inconsequential votes... he's just a piece of shit with awful views who sometimes votes the right way.

Yes, I know he's better than a Republican. Yes, he'll be replaced by a Republican. But Manchin does NOT need to be praised just because he's better than the alternative.
I hate the supposed 'realpolitik' bullshit surrounding him. He's a piece of shit that we have to navigate. He's not some oracle of representation for his state.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I'm not informed enough about the person to talk on Manchin himself, but posters reverting to "real politics", which can otherwise be described in a simpler and clearer way as playing the game, is pretty much a quick shortcut to being honest about the rights they don't care about and the people they don't consider.
This
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,432
Not gonna lie, the fact that you didn't reply to shem, who did a well-researched explanation of why you were wrong, tells me that you're not going to listen to people about trans topics when it matters.

shem's post dealt with Manchin's brother and the plight of trans-teens in WV. How exactly am I supposed to respond to that when I never denied Manchin was shit or the existence of trans-oppression?

WV also has one of the highest proportions of trans teens in HS's and manchins brother, a school admin, had done the same bathroom shit that R's were tarred and feathered for.

Maybe fuck off saying it doesn't matter? It does. You just don't care.

Sources:



But it didn't pass. Everything your bringing up is a state issue and why WV needs to fight for better representation at a local level.

"You do realize without him this wouldn't have passed" Yes i'm not fucking dumb.

"You do realize any republican who would replace him would be worse" Yes i'm not fucking dumb.

"This vote doesn't matter it needed 60 votes anyway" People show you who they really are when the stakes are low. How you treat a waiter, someone in a lower rank at work, or when discussing how minorities (either LGBTQ, racial, or a combination of both) should feel about someone voting along with harmful stereotypes while presiding over a home state that is doing the same.

This is why that vote matters. It shows us who he is. It shows us his priorities. He's saying our rights don't matter and frankly so are you when you willfully paper over his actions that have direct implications for the next 6 months of legislation. You should be excoriating him for this vote and especially his stance on the fillibuster because his beliefs and intransigence will deny Democrats a chance to fix how fucked up our election system is and ensure rights for everyone.

I can't wait to go into those threads and see so many people enraged when key planks of D legislation can't even get a vote and say "Why are you upset, someone else from WV would be so much worse" like a fucking dolt.

But no lets just post "manchin cycle" for the 15th time while telling people his votes don't actually matter. Get a fucking clue.

Its been known who he is and what his priorities are. I honestly don't even know what we are even arguing about at this point. I get upset when his vote actually is critical and denies people shit.

"Just wait until the equality act." Dog. That shit ain't passing. If manchin wouldn't overturn a fillibuster for a minimum wage increase what makes you think he would for the rights of LGBTQ people, the same people he needlessly attacked with this vote?

Fair.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
shem's post dealt with Manchin's brother and the plight of trans-teens in WV. How exactly am I supposed to respond to that when I never denied Manchin was shit or the existence of trans-oppression?



But it didn't pass. Everything your bringing up is a state issue and why WV needs to fight for better representation at a local level.



Its been known who he is and what his priorities are. I honestly don't even know what we are even arguing about at this point. I get upset when his vote actually is critical and denies people shit.



Fair.

Voting for this enables people to behave in a bigoted fashion to trans people.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
No, it sucks. But the alternate right now is a gop senate.
What
shem's post dealt with Manchin's brother and the plight of trans-teens in WV. How exactly am I supposed to respond to that when I never denied Manchin was shit or the existence of trans-oppression?



But it didn't pass. Everything your bringing up is a state issue and why WV needs to fight for better representation at a local level.



Its been known who he is and what his priorities are. I honestly don't even know what we are even arguing about at this point. I get upset when his vote actually is critical and denies people shit.



Fair.
url
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,759
No, it sucks. But the alternate right now is a gop senate.
shem's post dealt with Manchin's brother and the plight of trans-teens in WV. How exactly am I supposed to respond to that when I never denied Manchin was shit or the existence of trans-oppression?



But it didn't pass. Everything your bringing up is a state issue and why WV needs to fight for better representation at a local level.



Its been known who he is and what his priorities are. I honestly don't even know what we are even arguing about at this point. I get upset when his vote actually is critical and denies people shit.



Fair.
Transphobes.