What do you think could be the memory setup of your preferred console, or one of the new consoles?

  • GDDR6

    Votes: 566 41.0%
  • GDDR6 + DDR4

    Votes: 540 39.2%
  • HBM2

    Votes: 53 3.8%
  • HBM2 + DDR4

    Votes: 220 16.0%

  • Total voters
    1,379
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Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
I've got a crazy theory on why Lockheart was canceled.

* Tinfoil hat on *

Lockheart makes a lot of sense. If we look at the steam hardware survey a year before the PS4, in 2012 only 17.7% of PC gamers had a 720p monitor while 25.6% of PC gamers had a 1080p monitor; a lot of people had 1080p TVs and in general, everyone was super excited for the consoles to get to 1080p and finally match the PC gamers who've been gaming at 1080p for years. But in 2019, according to the latest Steam survey, only 1.6% are gaming on a 4K monitor (another 4.7% in 1440p) while a whopping 62.5% are still gaming on a 1080p monitor. Today most content isn't available in 4K, even huge cultural phenomenon like the MCU movies are mostly unavailable in 4K. In short, the world is much less excited to go 4K compared to 2012 and 1080p. Even right here in this thread, where the core of the core is posting, we see a lot of pushback to the idea of going native 4K. Yeah, we still want 1440p + reconstruction to 4K but we are the hardcore of the hardcore and we don't care much about native 4K, so does the layman even care about 4K at all?

After considering all that, a Lockheart console makes a lot of sense. If Microsoft had a 1080p console that runs the same games and they mostly look the same only in 1080p instead of 4K for 300$, that could be one hell of a deal for a very large group of customers that would have never bought a 500$ Anaconda or PS5. Customers will have a choice, the more casuals (which makes most of the gaming community) will buy Lockheart while the core who wants the best hardware around will buy the 500$ Anaconda. So why cancel Lockheart? Why invest millions in R&D and throw away such a great idea (I know that a lot of users her oppose this idea but they will probably agree that at least financially it's a great idea)?

Well, that's where my crazy theory comes in. What if Microsoft, by the Cerny interview or from stories from developers, had realized that Sony is aiming at a 499$ console. What if Microsoft had realized that the PS5 is more powerful than the Anaconda just like the rumblings during E3? That will make the Anaconda kind of miss its' point to be the crazy high-end console for the gamer who has to have the most powerful machine around. Silicon is already set in stone, memory setup and bus are already set in stone; they can't do much except add a few GB of memory and clock the GPU or CPU a bit higher and who knows if that's enough. So how about using Microsoft's biggest weapon, money? What if they've decided to price the Anaconda at 399$? It will undermine the whole idea of Sony having the more powerful console at the same price, if they are 100$ an a bit weaker, Scarlett really makes sense. Thing is, it will make the Lockheart make no sense any more, after all, why do they need a 300$ console if they have a 400$ console that is already PS5-grade (even if it's 10%-20% weaker)? So they've killed Lockheart, they might have the weaker console but they also have the 100$ cheaper console with Halo and probably Forza 8 ready for launch day.

I know what your thinking, why not just price the Lockheart at 250$ or 200$ so they can get that casual crowd anyway? They can't. With a 500$ and 300$ strategy, they probably lost very little money on both SKUs, at least they probably took a pretty low hit on the Lockheart because it's aimed at the more casual audience. If they cut the Anaconda to 400$, they will lose extra 100$ on each console but these customers are core enough to make it back 10 folds. As we saw in the Sony presentation, year one adopters of a 400$ console will spend 1600$ in the console's lifespan which makes losing extra 100$ on launch day not that bad if it means getting a good starting user base for the console. But the casuals who will buy Lockheart? Not so much, they spend much less than 700$ (the 700$ figure includes the early adopters that spend 1600$ so a casual probably spends a lot less) and losing extra 100$ isn't worth it. So Lockheart at 300$ and Anaconda at 400$ doesn't make much sense. Anaconda alone at 400$ while PS5 is at 500$? That makes a lot more sense, striking a balance between power and price is the name of the game.

* Tinfoil hat off *

I enjoyed the wild speculation, but I don't think a steam survey on PC user display resolutions is reflective of even a minority of console gamers and the displays they play on.

If MS at one point thought Lockheart wasn't a terrible idea, it would have been based on better data than steam survey.

Why Sony and not Sony Interactive entertainement on the photo? I think this is a really good fake.

It's possibly from a legit Sony event that had nothing to do with PS.
 

sleepr

Banned for misusing pronouns feature
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,965
Remember that reddit post with two pictures from an alleged PS5 event?


20190417-092000.jpg


jUiU3qc.jpg


Found the location:

Radisson Blu Edwardian, Heathrow


First pic is from the atrium, second pic is from one of the conference rooms:

atriumq2kxx.jpg


conferenceroomciji7.jpg


So it seems like this was an European event, possibly for European developers. According to the Exif data it took place on April 17th, 2019. Maybe this helps to gather more info about that event.

Edit: The first picture is also pretty high res, might be possible to ID some of the persons attending, if they are from European dev studios only? To get confirmation if this is PlayStation related.

Comment section on reddit:

"Time to burst the bubble.

Yes this was a Sony meeting held on 17th April at the radisson blu at Heathrow Airport.

No, it had nothing to do with PS5.

It was in the UK and it was a training event for the new FY19 consumer electronic products, Sony Bravia, Bluetooth speakers, high powered audio etc.

Source: I helped setup and deliver the event on the day to 250+ attendees."
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,790
I've got a crazy theory on why Lockheart was canceled.

* Tinfoil hat on *

[snip]

* Tinfoil hat off *

I really can't envision a scenario where the next PlayStation is $499 and Scarlett is $399. That's pretty close to an exact repeat of PS3 vs. 360, and I think Sony would do everything in their power to avoid that, including take a loss on the console if necessary.
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
oh shit we're actually doing the zoom and enhance thing, feels like this thread is really kicking into high gear.
 
Feb 26, 2018
2,753
Comment section on reddit:

"Time to burst the bubble.

Yes this was a Sony meeting held on 17th April at the radisson blu at Heathrow Airport.

No, it had nothing to do with PS5.

It was in the UK and it was a training event for the new FY19 consumer electronic products, Sony Bravia, Bluetooth speakers, high powered audio etc.

Source: I helped setup and deliver the event on the day to 250+ attendees."
Its obviously Jim Ryan trying to misdirect us from finding the truth
 

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,547
Comment section on reddit:

"Time to burst the bubble.

Yes this was a Sony meeting held on 17th April at the radisson blu at Heathrow Airport.

No, it had nothing to do with PS5.

It was in the UK and it was a training event for the new FY19 consumer electronic products, Sony Bravia, Bluetooth speakers, high powered audio etc.

Source: I helped setup and deliver the event on the day to 250+ attendees."

Oh shit, lol. Didn't even check the link for an update. I thought someone must have taken a picture of that deer statue. So I cropped the pic, uploaded it to Google image search with "deer statue" and first hit was this lol:


But ok, at least we can cross this "leak" off our list.

Edit: Good god, the comment is also already a month old. Should have had checked the post again.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,077
Barcelona Spain
Comment section on reddit:

"Time to burst the bubble.

Yes this was a Sony meeting held on 17th April at the radisson blu at Heathrow Airport.

No, it had nothing to do with PS5.

It was in the UK and it was a training event for the new FY19 consumer electronic products, Sony Bravia, Bluetooth speakers, high powered audio etc.

Source: I helped setup and deliver the event on the day to 250+ attendees."

I don't believe it. Do this kind of presentation for consumer electronics and add the PS5 which will be released 19 months later. I smell fake.
 

TheRaidenPT

Editor-in-Chief, Hyped Pixels
Verified
Jun 11, 2018
6,026
Lisbon, Portugal
I've got a crazy theory on why Lockheart was canceled.

* Tinfoil hat on *

Lockheart makes a lot of sense. If we look at the steam hardware survey a year before the PS4, in 2012 only 17.7% of PC gamers had a 720p monitor while 25.6% of PC gamers had a 1080p monitor; a lot of people had 1080p TVs and in general, everyone was super excited for the consoles to get to 1080p and finally match the PC gamers who've been gaming at 1080p for years. But in 2019, according to the latest Steam survey, only 1.6% are gaming on a 4K monitor (another 4.7% in 1440p) while a whopping 62.5% are still gaming on a 1080p monitor. Today most content isn't available in 4K, even huge cultural phenomenon like the MCU movies are mostly unavailable in 4K. In short, the world is much less excited to go 4K compared to 2012 and 1080p. Even right here in this thread, where the core of the core is posting, we see a lot of pushback to the idea of going native 4K. Yeah, we still want 1440p + reconstruction to 4K but we are the hardcore of the hardcore and we don't care much about native 4K, so does the layman even care about 4K at all?

After considering all that, a Lockheart console makes a lot of sense. If Microsoft had a 1080p console that runs the same games and they mostly look the same only in 1080p instead of 4K for 300$, that could be one hell of a deal for a very large group of customers that would have never bought a 500$ Anaconda or PS5. Customers will have a choice, the more casuals (which makes most of the gaming community) will buy Lockheart while the core who wants the best hardware around will buy the 500$ Anaconda. So why cancel Lockheart? Why invest millions in R&D and throw away such a great idea (I know that a lot of users her oppose this idea but they will probably agree that at least financially it's a great idea)?

Well, that's where my crazy theory comes in. What if Microsoft, by the Cerny interview or from stories from developers, had realized that Sony is aiming at a 499$ console. What if Microsoft had realized that the PS5 is more powerful than the Anaconda just like the rumblings during E3? That will make the Anaconda kind of miss its' point to be the crazy high-end console for the gamer who has to have the most powerful machine around. Silicon is already set in stone, memory setup and bus are already set in stone; they can't do much except add a few GB of memory and clock the GPU or CPU a bit higher and who knows if that's enough. So how about using Microsoft's biggest weapon, money? What if they've decided to price the Anaconda at 399$? It will undermine the whole idea of Sony having the more powerful console at the same price, if they are 100$ less while being a bit weaker, Scarlett really makes sense. Thing is, it will make the Lockheart make no sense any more, after all, why do they need a 300$ console if they have a 400$ console that is already PS5-grade (even if it's 10%-20% weaker)? So they've killed Lockheart, they might have the weaker console but they also have the 100$ cheaper console with Halo and probably Forza 8 ready for launch day.

I know what you are thinking, why not just price the Lockheart at 250$ or 200$ so they can get that casual crowd too? They can't. With a 500$ and 300$ strategy, they probably lost very little money on both SKUs, at least they probably took a pretty small hit on the Lockheart because it's aimed at the more casual audience. If they cut the Anaconda to 400$, they will lose extra 100$ on each console but these customers are core enough to make it back 10 folds. As we saw in the Sony presentation, year one adopters of a 400$ console will spend 1600$ in the console's lifespan which makes losing extra 100$ on launch day not that bad if it means getting a good starting user base for the console. But the casuals who will buy Lockheart? Not so much, they spend much less than 700$ (the 700$ figure includes the early adopters that spend 1600$ so a casual probably spends a lot less) and losing extra 100$ isn't worth it. So Lockheart at 300$ and Anaconda at 400$ doesn't make much sense. Anaconda alone at 400$ while PS5 is sold for 500$? That makes a lot more sense, striking a balance between power and price is the name of the game.

* Tinfoil hat off *

I can see Microsoft going for the under cut, under their situation right now is what they should do if they want hardware sales.
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
I enjoyed the wild speculation, but I don't think a steam survey on PC user display resolutions is reflective of even a minority of console gamers and the displays they play on.

If MS at one point thought Lockheart wasn't a terrible idea, it would have been based on better data than steam survey.
The steam survey is just an example, I don't think that anyone here disagrees that the excitement for 4K and its' adoption are much lower than 1080p in 2012. Lockheart is actually one of the better ideas, creative and smart, Dropping Lockheart after investing millions of dollars in it (just think about it, Lockheart's APU is probably already silicon locked, just imagine the amount of money that went down the drain) should have a very good reason behind it.

I really can't envision a scenario where the next PlayStation is $499 and Scarlett is $399. That's pretty close to an exact repeat of PS3 vs. 360, and I think Sony would do everything in their power to avoid that, including take a loss on the console if necessary.
In 2006 the low end 360 and low-end PS3 were 200$ apart. That's 254.06$ in 2019 money, one hell of a delta compared to 100$ in 2019. In addition, most of the users here think that the PS5 will be 500$ so it isn't that far fetched, Cerny had hinted at higher than 399$ price point.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,077
Barcelona Spain
The easiest way to tell its a fake is they had a 56 CU Navi GPU at 12.9 TFLOPS.

I don't believe so much because of HDD and custom SSD, it means a very expensive setup. And it goes in contradiction with the rumor Digitalfoundry heard, 1TB SSD. It means a second CPU, an hardware decompressor and a tiny SSD a 256 GB SSD for example and it means long install of game from the HDD to the SSD.

409628-ihs-xbox-one-teardown.jpg


HDD are expensive. This is an incompressible cost. custom SSD can cost much cheaper end of life of PS5. HDD + BR + mechanical and electro mechanical part is an estimated cost of 100 dollars, same price than the SOC...

EDIT: Another problem why give spec inside a Sony electronics presentation. They can just give what Mark Cerny told to Wired this is enough. A big fake...
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,275
I'm in the minority where I actually believe Xbox might be a bit more powerful than PS5. What I do doubt though is any meaningful power difference similar to X vs Pro.
The difference between the X1X & the Pro is certainly meaningful. You might not care for it but I don't feel like it's right to say the difference between them is small.

I don't think the difference is going to be anywhere close to 40% though for the next gen consoles.
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,790
The difference between the X1X & the Pro is certainly meaningful. You might not care for it but I don't feel like it's right to say the difference between them is small.

"any meaningful power difference similar to X vs Pro"

thuway was saying that that the X and Pro did have a meaningful difference, and they expect the next consoles won't.
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
I don't believe so much because of HDD and custom SSD, it means a very expensive setup. And it goes in contradiction with the rumor Digitalfoundry heard, 1TB SSD.

It means a second CPU, an hardware decompressor and a tiny SSD a 256 GB SSD for example and it means long install of game from the HDD to the SSD.

409628-ihs-xbox-one-teardown.jpg


HDD are expensive. This is an incompressible cost. custom SSD can cost much cheaper end of life of PS5. HDD + BR + mechanical and electro mechanical part is an estimated cost of 100 dollars, same price than the SOC...

EDIT: Another problem why give spec inside a Sony electronics presentation. They can just give what Mark Cerny told to Wired this is enough. A big fake...
DF had said that they've heard that the PS5 is built around a 1TB SSD so I'm guessing that it's a done deal, but Scarlett can still be using SSD for caching + HDD. Right now a 256GB NVMe + 2TB HDD cost the same as a 1TB NVMe. It allows for bigger storage, user replaced HDD and external HDD. All three of those can't really happen on a system with a single NVMe drive. Games don't need to be fully installed on the SSD, in reality, most of the game doesn't have to be there and the OS will need to handle which data it holds on the SSD smartly, the user will probably never even know the SSD is there.

Regarding lifespan, it doesn't really matter, consoles have revisions. If 3-4 years down the road it's more economical to have a 100% SSD solution, these revisions can have a 100% SSD solution. Building a console in 2020 in anticipation of BOM price drop in 2024 doesn't make any sense because the consoles built in 2024 will be different than the launch ones anyway, especially in the storage department.
 
Feb 26, 2018
2,753
Matt its probably a dumb question that you wont answer but do you know anything about that SSD from Sony? Is it really heavy customised or is it just a PR speak?
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,077
Barcelona Spain
DF had said that they've heard that the PS5 is built around a 1TB SSD so I'm guessing that it's a done deal, but Scarlett can still be using SSD for caching + HDD. Right now a 256GB NVMe + 2TB HDD cost the same as a 1TB NVMe. Games don't need to be fully installed on the SSD, in reality, most of the game doesn't have to be there and the OS will need to handle the data smartly, the user will probably never even know the SSD is there.

Regarding lifespan, it doesn't really matter, consoles have revisions. If 3-4 years down the road it's more economical to have a 100% SSD solution, these revisions can have a 100% SSD solution. Building a console in 2020 in anticipation of BOM price drop in 2024 doesn't make any sense because the consoles built in 2024 will be different than the launch ones anyway, especially in the storage department.

But at the end the HDD is 37 dollars end of life 1TB SSD can cost 17 dollars probably.

Read the patent, the advantage it helps them sustain real bandwith of 1GB/s, 5GB/S, 10 GB/S or 20 GB/S not in benchmarck in game utilisation. The only case when the performance fall is the case of multiple consecutive read of 4 Kib files. In this case they give the advice to move the files into one big file. After this data request will be parallelise between with a 4kib size taking all files without destroying the performance of the solution. All other random call are sustainable because they parralelize the data request. A file is read by a parralel I/O. Even at 5 GB/s this custom solution will be far above other SSD solution.

If read requests in such small units are issued frequently, parallelization effects will be marginal. Besides, the transfer rate of the main CPU 30 is more likely affected by the transfer rates of the sub-CPU 32, the flash controller 18, and the flash memory 20, easily increasing latency and resulting in a lower transfer rate of the main CPU 30. Therefore, if a data access request in such a small size occurs every millisecond or so, a plurality of files are combined into a single file and a data access request is issued in units of 10 MiB or so, thus providing a 10 GB/second transfer rate with high robustness.

EDIT: Another things, MS said to dev they will use the SSD as a virtual RAM for HDD. It change everything without the HDD... This not something you change during the lifecycle of the console.

At least they can say they have more storage than Sony...
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
But at the end the HDD is 37 dollars end of life 1TB SSD can cost 17 dollars probably.

Read the patent, the advantage it helps them sustain real bandwith of 1GB/s, 5GB/S, 10 GB/S or 20 GB/S not in benchmarck in game utilisation. The only case when the performance fall is the case of multiple consecutive read of 4 Kib files. In this case they give the advice to move the files into one big file. After this data request will be parallelise between with a 4kib size taking all files without destroying the performance of the solution. All other random call are sustainable because they parralelize the data request. A file is read by a parralel I/O.
What does matter how much a HDD cost 3 years, 5 years or at the end of life of the console? They will just use the storage solution that makes sense the most at that time. If in 2024 SSDs are super cheap, they will just place a big SSD in the 2024 revision of the console.

EDIT: Another things, MS said to dev they will use the SSD as a virtual RAM for HDD. It change everything without the HDD...
Every PC ever used it's HDD as virtual RAM and the PS4 and XBO are probably doing that too, there is nothing new about that and it doesn't mean anything regarding cache SSD + HDD VS SSD.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
Colbert Thank you for the updated chart. Most mobile friendly one yet :D

I was wondering what the "SE" in your tile diagram stands for?
Space occupied by parts like caches and general functions inside a (S)hader (E)ngine. 6 tiles makes up for 1 Shader Engine.
I'm surprised you aren't using the (imo quite compelling) idea of a 320 bit (10 chip, 3-4-3) memory configuration on the Scarlett. Don't think much of it?
Because it is an idea I do not follow. Just like I do not follow the idea of HBM2 that many think so favorable about. I only change my prediction based on if an information can convince me to change my idea of the consoles. Both ideas don't do that. For 320-bit the reason are cost and requirements not given how the console is setup with a fast SSD. For HBM2 it is cost and introduced complexity which is opposite of the design principles Cerny is known for.

------

General statement:
This thread is sometimes like a Kindergarten or a Zoo with parrots not using their own brain and totally dependent on insiders making up their minds.
Disgusting!
 

Raide

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
16,596
This thread went a little bonkers... Well, more bonkers.

I must admit, it's pretty exciting to see what is all guesswork and what is actually real. Hopefully as the months pass, that will be clearer.
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
General statement:
This thread is sometimes like a Kindergarten or a Zoo with parrots not using their own brain and totally dependent on insiders making up their minds.
Disgusting!
The 320-bit interface doesn't come from rumors of insiders, you can see that in the CGI motherboard Microsoft had released. Yeah, we don't see it in full but it's pretty obvious that it's a 10 chip setup. Just like Cerny's interview, Microsoft didn't create this CGI trailer without thinking about every little detail and hint that they give in it.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
The 320-bit interface doesn't come from rumors of insiders, you can see that in the CGI motherboard Microsoft had released. Yeah, we don't see it in full but it's pretty obvious that it's a 10 chip setup.
You quoted the wrong part of my comment. This part you quoted was targeted on the discussion took place about Lockhart the last couple of pages. That is why I separated it from the other part by this little "----" thingy.

As for the 320-bit interface. Yes you can derive that from the video. But who told you that the PCB was Anaconda? That is an assumption. It could be the case or not. I also have no issues about if that part of my prediction could be wrong. The reason why I am so resistant about it is that I personally don't see the requirement to have more than 16GB of RAM. To convince me somebody has to give me a use case that is different than "more is always better".
 
Last edited:

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,790
Right now a 256GB NVMe + 2TB HDD cost the same as a 1TB NVMe. It allows for bigger storage, user replaced HDD and external HDD.

You can't just look at component costs. An HDD adds bulk and weight to the system, increases assembly complexity, and adds a mechanical point of failure that would impact warranty costs.

For high-volume uniform products like game consoles, just sticking SSD chips directly on the board makes a lot of sense.
 

Piggus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,733
Oregon
U
You can't just look at component costs. An HDD adds bulk and weight to the system, increases assembly complexity, and adds a mechanical point of failure that would impact warranty costs.

For high-volume uniform products like game consoles, just sticking SSD chips directly on the board makes a lot of sense.

That wouldn't surprise me, but I hope and expect they'll have an M.2 or nvme slot for expansion. 100+ gb games like RDR2 will be the norm.
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
You quoted the wrong part of my comment. This part you quoted was targeted on the discussion took place about Lockhart the last couple of pages.

As for the 320-bit interface. Yes you can derive that from the video. But who told you that the PCB was Anaconda? That is an assumption. It could be the case or not. I also have no issues about if that part of my prediction could be wrong. The reason why I am so resistant about it is that I personally don't see the requirement to have more than 16GB of RAM. To convince me somebody has to give me a use case that is different than "more is always better".
If they are mixing chips as the CGI trailer had shown us, they can get a 16GB solution using a 320-bit interface by using x4 1GB chips and x6 2GB chips. It makes sense if they wanted a 16GB console but at the same time, a 256-bit isn't enough because their GPU might be a bit more powerful than the 5700 XT and the same bus has to serve the CPU too.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
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Germany
If they are mixing chips as the CGI trailer had shown us, they can get a 16GB solution using a 320-bit interface by using x4 1GB chips and x6 2GB chips. It makes sense if they wanted a 16GB console but at the same time thought that 256-bit isn't enough because their GPU might be a bit more powerful than the 5700 XT and the same bus has to serve the CPU too.
I know that too. But Navi partly eliminated the requirement of the thumb rule that you need 50GB/s bandwidth per Teraflop of computational power by the new cache architecture. So why add extra cost and PCB complexity if you don't need to?
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
You can't just look at component costs. An HDD adds bulk and weight to the system, increases assembly complexity, and adds a mechanical point of failure that would impact warranty costs.

For high-volume uniform products like game consoles, just sticking SSD chips directly on the board makes a lot of sense.
That goes both ways, having an onboard SSD will also make fixing a broken console a lot more expensive which will make warranty more expensive to Microsoft and Sony. A broken replaceable HDD is actually one of the easiest things to fix/replace. Yeah, it has weight and size and that adds to the cost, but having 2TB and allowing the user to replace the HDD and connect an external HDD is a very big advantage.

I know that too. But Navi partly eliminated the requirement of the thumb rule that you need 50GB/s bandwidth per Teraflop of computational power by the new cache architecture. So why add extra cost and PCB complexity if you don't need to?
The 5700 XT only has 22GB/s bandwidth per TF of computational power so yeah, Navi had solved the crazy bandwidth requirements of GCN, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't benefit from more bandwidth. If the 5700 XT didn't need that 448GB/s bandwidth, AMD would have used the 12Gbps GDDR6 chips and got 384G/s bus which would have made it cheaper to build. So I'm guessing that the 5700 XT does need the 448GB/s bandwidth and if you add in a CPU and RT which loves bandwidth, a 560GB/s bus makes a lot of sense.
 
Last edited:

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,790
That goes both ways, having an onboard SSD will also make fixing a broken console a lot more expensive which will make warranty more expensive to Microsoft and Sony. A broken replaceable HDD is actually one of the easiest things to fix/replace. Yeah, it has weight and size and that adds to the cost, but having 2TB and allowing the user to replace the HDD and connect an external HDD is a very big advantage.

I think a very, very small percentage of users replace their HDD.

And how would including an SSD preclude the ability to connect an external HDD? That doesn't follow.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,077
Barcelona Spain
That goes both ways, having an onboard SSD will also make fixing a broken console a lot more expensive which will make warranty more expensive to Microsoft and Sony. A broken replaceable HDD is actually one of the easiest things to fix/replace. Yeah, it has weight and size and that adds to the cost, but having 2TB and allowing the user to replace the HDD and connect an external HDD is a very big advantage.

You will have much less SSD going down than HDD or BR Drive from what I heard all mechanical part are the biggest part in console failure.

Edit: And external HDD is not a new things it works on PS4 and Xbox One.
 

Detective Pidgey

Alt Account
Banned
Jun 4, 2019
6,255
I'm in the minority where I actually believe Xbox might be a bit more powerful than PS5. What I do doubt though is any meaningful power difference similar to X vs Pro.

If both machines target similar price points it ends up becoming a game of tweaks.
Bear in mind, none of this is confirmed. It's better to just take it as pure speculation.

Oh always!

I was a little mixed on the whole thing. Glad if true because more problems for devs and holding back next gen games is never a good thing. On the other hand MS is likely keeping the S and X around for a while, so while it won't hold third parties back, what about Microsoft's own developers? Will we see all upcoming first party games release on both next gen and the Xbox One systems or will there be a actual Anaconda exclusive at launch? I was never afraid about third parties, it's the first party devs that I really want to go all out with games for Anaconda.

Lockhart probably would have been better, since it would likely have the same CPU als Anaconda too. Ah well.
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
I think a very, very small percentage of users replace their HDD.

And how would including an SSD preclude the ability to connect an external HDD? That doesn't follow.
If you relay on games being installed on an SSD, they can't run from an HDD. I'm guessing that you can have the external HDD as a games bank to copy to the SSD instead of redownloading them but that beats the purpose of an external drive - expending your storage volume.

You will have much less SSD going down than HDD or BR Drive from what I heard all mechanical part are the biggest part in console failure.
But when they do break, fixing it will be a catastrophe pricing wise for the platform holders. Replacing a broken HDD, that's a thing that every user can do. Broken SSD that is part of the board? That's one hell of a fix. I honestly don't know what is worse for Microsoft regarding spending money on warranty, having an HDD that breaks more than an SSD but is cheap to fix or having an SSD that breaks less but cost a lot to fix.

Edit: And external HDD is not a new things it works on PS4 and Xbox One.
Yeah, it works great on the 360 and XBO. I'm not actually sure what you are trying to say regarding that part. If 360 and XBO users are used to having an external drive connected to expend their storage, taking that way in the Scarlett makes even less sense; especially if they are going to be stuck with a tiny 1TB drive that will probably have ~800GB available for games and apps.
 

Deleted member 12635

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The 5700 XT only has 22GB/s bandwidth per TF of computational power so yeah, Navi had solved the crazy bandwidth requirements of GCN, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't benefit from more bandwidth. If the 5700 XT didn't need that 448GB/s bandwidth, AMD would have used the 12Gbps GDDR6 chips and got 384G/s bus which would have made it cheaper to build. So I'm guessing that the 5700 XT does need the 448GB/s bandwidth and if you add in a CPU and RT which loves bandwidth, a 560GB/s bus makes a lot of sense.
While the argument is fine it doesn't show me the requirement to do so.
In a mass market product like a console you not always do what is possible from a technology standpoint IMO.
Let it go ;) for now
 

chris 1515

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If you relay on games being installed on an SSD, they can't run from an HDD. I'm guessing that you can have the external HDD as a games bank to copy to the SSD instead of redownloading them but that beats the purpose of an external drive - expending your storage volume.


But when they do break, fixing it will be a catastrophe pricing wise for the platform holders. Replacing a broken HDD, that's a thing that every user can do. Broken SSD that is part of the board? That's one hell of a fix.


Yeah, it works great on the 360 and XBO. I'm not actually sure what you are trying to say regarding that part. If 360 and XBO users are used to having an external drive connected to expend their storage, taking that way in the Scarlett makes even less sense; especially if they are going to be stuck with a tiny 1TB drive that will probably have ~800GB available for games and apps.

And you can expand you storage with external HDD, this is the goal. First time someone will need to have some some sort of install if the data in the SSD like Sony solution. It will be faster than install all the game but I think this is a good compromise have an ultra fast SSD compared to the number of people using an external hard drive having a little inconvenience with a full install. It is better for digital version than redownload all the game or install it from the BR disk.
 
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DrKeo

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While the argument is fine it doesn't show me the requirement to do so.
In a mass market product like a console you not always do what is possible from a technology standpoint IMO.
I do agree that if we were playing a guessing game without knowing anything, 256-bit interface with 16GB is a really safe bet. Thing is, we have the CGI trailer and Microsoft had already shown us with the X CGI trailer that what they show in the trailer is a hint to what is coming. I mean, you are taking that ~390mm^2 die size that we got from the CGI trailer really seriously with guessing the number of CU according to that, but for some reason, you are ignoring the memory chips setup. It's not that you have to, it's Colbert's prediction, not DrKeo's prediction (even though you make me one once :)), I'm just wondered why ignore it.

And you can expand you storage with external HDD, this is the goal. First time someone will need to have some some sort of install if the data in the SSD like Sony solution. It will be faster than install all the game but I think this is a good compromise have a ultra fast SSD compared to the number of people using an external hard drive having a little inconvenience with a full install. It is better for digital version than redownload all the game or install it from the BR disk.
But if you can run a game from an HDD while just some of it is installed on the SSD then what you have is a cache SSD. So why not have a cache SSD in the first place? If a console maker makes 100% of the console's storage an SSD, it doesn't make any sense to make a caching or installing system that will require work both on the OS level and the developer level just to allow external storage. If you are already making that system, why not just use a cache SSD + HDD? Because maybe the HDD will be more expensive than a pure SSD solution 4 years later? Then ditch the SSD + HDD setup 4 years later and leave just one big SSD in the 2024 version of the Scarlett.
 

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I do agree that if we were playing a guessing game without knowing anything, 256-bit interface with 16GB is a really safe bet. Thing is, we have the CGI trailer and Microsoft had already shown us with the X's CGI trailer that what they show in the trailer is a hint to what is coming. I mean, you are taking that ~390mm^2 die size that we got from the CGI trailer really seriously with guessing the number of CU according to that, but for some reason, you are ignoring the memory chips setup. It's not that you have to, it's Colbert's prediction, not DrKeo's prediction (even though you make me one once :)), I'm just wondering why to ignore it.
Please give me the freedom to ignore things other think they are valid :p Ty
 

tanky

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Yes, the biggest and most profitable console manufacturer doesn't have enough money.
Glad you understand.

This is an odd take.

If Microsoft has the better box, it's because they're able and willing to push the Xbox brand upmarket as a premium product for the most demanding users, while Sony more or less has to go for volume as the market leader. It doesn't have anything to do with Sony not being able to afford the good parts from AMD, or anything.
I, too, pretend the PS4 Pro doesn't exist.
 

chris 1515

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I do agree that if we were playing a guessing game without knowing anything, 256-bit interface with 16GB is a really safe bet. Thing is, we have the CGI trailer and Microsoft had already shown us with the X CGI trailer that what they show in the trailer is a hint to what is coming. I mean, you are taking that ~390mm^2 die size that we got from the CGI trailer really seriously with guessing the number of CU according to that, but for some reason, you are ignoring the memory chips setup. It's not that you have to, it's Colbert's prediction, not DrKeo's prediction (even though you make me one once :)), I'm just wondered why ignore it.


But if you can run a game from an HDD while just some of it is installed on the SSD then what you have is a cache SSD. So why not have a cache SSD in the first place? If a console maker makes 100% of the console's storage an SSD, it doesn't make any sense to make a caching or installing system that will require work both on the OS level and the developer level just to allow external storage. If you are already making that system, why not just use a cache SSD + HDD? Because maybe the HDD will be expensive 4 years later? Then ditch the SSD + HDD setup 4 years later and leave just one big SSD in the 2024 version of the Scarlett.

Because a cache SSD and HDD will never be as fast as the SSD in the patent. Like I said read the patent even if it is only 5GB/s in real game situation this will goes much faster than any SSD or cache SSD + HDD on the market. The goal is to have the best solution for loading and mostly steaming with a good compromise between performance and cost... There is no miracle into the new PCIE 4 SSD.


EDIT: The cost is dependant of the power of the second CPU and the hardware decompressor. It will probably be the same NAND at 5 GB/s or more.
 

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I think people knowing many things will try to protect themselves and 6 to 9 months ago saying something would have been dangerous for Matt and his sources. Like I said someone in the industry told me the SSD on Sony side is the one inside the patent find by gofreak. He told me someone finds the custom Sony SSD because it was found when I show him and there was some public evidence that it was a custom technology but he never told me the speed like a true professional and probably never talk of it if gofreak did not find the patent. He asked me too if someone find into all the controller patent the DS5 and it is somewhere into all the Sony patents about the controller. There is so much patent, it is impossible to find.

As a dreamer, I bet the speed is 10 GB/s more reasonably it is probably 5 GB/s but a few days ago I read the patent before I only read the gofreak post and this is real speed in real game condition probably not theoretical speed. 5GB/s is very impressive too... Faster is the speed the more power you need for the second CPU and the hardware accelerator/decompressor and the cost goes up.
Huh, I can't believe I missed this post. That's damned exciting to find out we might actually get a crazy fast customised SSD.
 

Gay Bowser

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My point is that your comment didn't make sense.

How doesn't it make sense? Please, tell me.

Because the way I see it, Xbox One X is actually a pretty good example of Microsoft "pushing the Xbox brand upmarket as a premium product for the most demanding users." It's more expensive than the PS4 Pro, by design.

I still have no idea what you're trying to say.
 

DrKeo

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Because a cache SSD and HDD will never be as fast as the SSD in the patent. Like I said read the patent even if it is only 5GB/s this will goes much faster than any SSD or cache SSD + HDD on the market. The goal is to have the best solution for loading and mostly steaming with a good compromise between performance and cost... There is no miracle into the new PCIE 4 SSD.

But the patent is only Sony related, Microsoft can't use it. I never said that Sony will use a cache SSD, I've said a few posts ago that Richard from DF said that he had heard that the PS5 is built around a 1TB SSD so that sound like a done deal. All I'm talking about is Scarlett which we don't know yet what solution they will use. Microsoft love ML, they can use it to have the most relevant data on the SSD at all times. Even if we look at the most stupid solution of having most of the game on the SSD without any thought or OS management, just by leaving the sound and FMV files on the HDD because they don't need to be on the SSD, will save ~25% of the game size on the SSD. A smarter solution that will actually just leave the blocks that are needed to the place that the player is at in the game will probablly make games signature on the cache SSD a few times folds smaller than the original game size on the HDD.
QRtfGQn.jpg
 

chris 1515

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Huh, I can't believe I missed this post. That's damned exciting to find out we might actually get a crazy fast customised SSD.

Like I said I have no insider information, the only I know this the custom solution. I did not think about a decepting scenario maybe the SSD will only be 1GB/s but in realworld utilisation in game. It is probably faster than current SSD in real games utilization but I doubt Cerny would have talk about the raw bandwith. I think it is reasonnable to think this is 5GB/s at least.

But I will have interesting conversation about what devs think about the solution after the specs will be official.

EDIT: I think the SSD works well with a HBCC solution, this is my own speculation but with a hint from my friend saying it could help to have less RAM. Maybe it will still be UMA but with Ariel and AMD Gonzalo some hints about a HBCC solution are there.
 
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