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How much money are you willing to pay for a next generation console?

  • Up to $199

    Votes: 33 1.5%
  • Up to $299

    Votes: 48 2.2%
  • Up to $399

    Votes: 318 14.4%
  • Up to $499

    Votes: 1,060 48.0%
  • Up to $599

    Votes: 449 20.3%
  • Up to $699

    Votes: 100 4.5%
  • I will pay anything!

    Votes: 202 9.1%

  • Total voters
    2,210
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bcatwilly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,483

I didn't really see a bunch of posts on here right now saying that they don't believe PS5 had hardware ray tracing. But I will repeat my earlier post here.
  1. It is logical and reasonable to expect that both PS5 and Xbox Scarlett have hardware support for ray tracing.
  2. It is not unreasonable to think that one of the console implementations may dedicate more hardware/die space and/or overall architectural design efficiency to support ray tracing.
They could both end up exactly the same with ray tracing, Scarlett more powerful ray tracing support or PS5 more powerful ray tracing support. But the statements above about such support are not mutually exclusive folks.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,937
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
"Microsoft's PR focus is all on the higher-spec Anaconda box but I've yet to get any firm confirmation that Lockhart has been cancelled."

Interesting...
Yep.

REgarding HWRT that Colbert made a good point of. The idea of extra /separate "cores" on the die may not be the AMD HW RT implementation - especially if you follow the patents that are there. I think it is just a turn of phrase in the interview with Colin.
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
if we average the 1.2~1.35x performance increase we get 1.27x performance increase on same clock speed, CU and bandwidth, factoring in the 10% performance increase from the bandwidth, and we get 1.4x increase, in line with the article colbert gave us when Navi launched.
And how do you know that increasing bandwidth on polaris wouldn't increase performance ?
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,284
Moving on from which has how much based on nothing....

The actually interesting tidbit is that AMD's implementation might actually mirror Nvidia's, at least going by calling them "RT cores."
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,883
And how do you know that increasing bandwidth on polaris wouldn't increase performance ?
you are missing the point.
i want to see what is the increase in performance from current gen consoles , and for that, i am assuming bandwidth is on par with those cards, but with next gen we will have better bandwidth, so this is a performance increase i need to account for.
 

Straffaren666

Member
Mar 13, 2018
84
  1. It is logical and reasonable to expect that both PS5 and Xbox Scarlett have hardware support for ray tracing.
  2. It is not unreasonable to think that one of the console implementations may dedicate more hardware/die space and/or overall architectural design efficiency to support ray tracing.
They could both end up exactly the same with ray tracing, Scarlett more powerful ray tracing support or PS5 more powerful ray tracing support. But the statements above about such support are not mutually exclusive folks.
Agreed, I'd even go as far as saying point 2 is likely.
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
you are missing the point.
i want to see what is the increase in performance from current gen consoles , and for that, i am assuming bandwidth is on par with those cards, but with next gen we will have better bandwidth, so this is a performance increase i need to account for.
But you know that nextgen consoles will target 4k not 1080p so hard to say they will have better bandwidth, they should have big enough bandwidth for 4k.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
Yep.

REgarding HWRT that Colbert made a good point of. The idea of extra /separate "cores" on the die may not be the AMD HW RT implementation - especially if you follow the patents that are there. I think it is just a turn of phrase in the interview with Colin.

So if Lockhart is still alive:. Do you think it will be the 1080p box for casual gamers and kids? Is there enough savings there with a smaller SOC and less RAM to make the differentiation worthwhile? Also - how will developers react to that?
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,883
And how do you know that increasing bandwidth on polaris wouldn't increase performance ?
there was the same 10% performance uplift in 1440p, and i am assuming 1440p/2160c for most games, not native 4k.
Who said Lockhart is still alive?
digital foundry said they have not yet got a confirmation its been cancelled.
but i have to side with zhuge and matt on this one, they have been extremely reliable sources of info for a long time, so i stand by it being dead.
 

bcatwilly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,483
digital foundry said they have not yet got a confirmation its been cancelled.
but i have to side with zhuge and matt on this one, they have been extremely reliable sources of info for a long time, so i stand by it being dead.

I am not saying that Lockhart isn't cancelled, but Microsoft could most certainly make sure to inform Digital Foundry in the background that it has been cancelled if they wanted to kill any chatter about it given that they invited DF to Seattle for the full Scorpio hardware reveal piece prior to launch.
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
there was the same 10% performance uplift in 1440p, and i am assuming 1440p/2160c for most games, not native 4k.
5700xt ~9.3tf with 448gb/s and xox is 6tf with 326gb/s I see 1.55x increase in tf and only 1.37x in bandwidth, console could have even worse bandwitdh per tf ratio than 5700xt so no, we could get bandwidth penalty to performance rather than increase
 

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,803
I am not saying that Lockhart isn't cancelled, but Microsoft could most certainly make sure to inform Digital Foundry in the background that it has been cancelled if they wanted to kill any chatter about it given that they invited DF to Seattle for the full Scorpio hardware reveal piece prior to launch.

doesn't work like that. scorpio was already known before they got to go visit Microsoft.
next gen hardware info is being kept quiet tight right now and Microsoft has eyes for leaks. df is in the dark, and lockhart hasn't been officially cancelled because it was never officially announced. it could come back at some point in the future but I wouldn't expect it to, nor would I expect any talk of it tbh.
 

CosmicBolt

Self-Requested Ban
Member
Oct 28, 2017
884
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-teraflop-face-off-current-gen-vs-next-gen
However, it would certainly go a long way towards explaining why Microsoft is considering the Project Scarlett box codenamed Lockhart rated at 'just' 4TF of GPU compute - and we may yet see this machine hit the market: Microsoft's PR focus is all on the higher-spec Anaconda box but I've yet to get any firm confirmation that Lockhart has been cancelled.
Brad Sams and Zhuge both said Lockhart is cancelled, and they are reliable insiders.

it really seems the info than DF has on next-gen console is either outdated or just incorrect.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
5700xt ~9.3tf with 448gb/s and xox is 6tf with 326gb/s I see 1.55x increase in tf and only 1.37x in bandwidth, console could have even worse bandwitdh per tf ratio than 5700xt so no, we could get bandwidth penalty to performance rather than increase

First 5700 XT is not the GPU of the next-generation consoles, this is something a bit more powerful with hardware raytracing support and who said 448 GB/s is the bandwidth of the APU knowing RAM need to feed the CPU and the GPU...
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,883
I am not saying that Lockhart isn't cancelled, but Microsoft could most certainly make sure to inform Digital Foundry in the background that it has been cancelled if they wanted to kill any chatter about it given that they invited DF to Seattle for the full Scorpio hardware reveal piece prior to launch.
companies do not have to confirm or deny every rumor that pops up.
doesn't work like that. scorpio was already known before they got to go visit Microsoft.
next gen hardware info is being kept quiet tight right now and Microsoft has eyes for leaks. df is in the dark, and lockhart hasn't been officially cancelled because it was never officially announced. it could come back at some point in the future but I wouldn't expect it to, nor would I expect any talk of it.
i dont see a low powered next gen console launching in the middle of the generation, how do they handle every scarlett game that launched before? do they go for CPU parity and force every developer to have a completely unlocked dynamic resolution?
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
First 5700 XT is not the GPU of next-generation console, this is something a bit more powerful with hardware raytracing support and who said 448 GB/s is the bandwith of the APU knowing iy will need to feed the CPU and the GPU...
Ok, but hard to say we can put some +10% because nextgen consoles will have bigger bandwidth if we even don't know what the teraflop/bandwidth ratio is ;d I would predict that ratio will be worse than on xox.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
I confused Scorpio with Scarlett. Damn

ill-take-snl-jeopardy-for-200-22-photos-10.jpg
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Interesting article/video by Richard but still very muddy.

I still think a 7.9 tflops 5700 card outperforming a 10.7 vega 56 and a 12.6 vega 64 is a great indicator of the tflops efficiency we can expect from Navi cards.

relative-performance_2560-1440.png


I think we can easily get to 2080 levels of performance with a 10.7 tflops Navi GPU.
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
Interesting article/video by Richard but still very muddy.

I still think a 7.9 tflops 5700 card outperforming a 10.7 vega 56 and a 12.6 vega 64 is a great indicator of the tflops efficiency we can expect from Navi cards.

relative-performance_2560-1440.png


I think we can easily get to 2080 levels of performance with a 10.7 tflops Navi GPU.
As I showed it many times earlier, especialy vega 64 lose petf/tf badly comparing to smaller chips and df compare chips with the same number of cores. Current gen consoles don't have many cu's so they did good work.
 

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,803
companies do not have to confirm or deny every rumor that pops up.

i dont see a low powered next gen console launching in the middle of the generation, how do they handle every scarlett game that launched before? do they go for CPU parity and force every developer to have a completely unlocked dynamic resolution?


they could do things from a os level with wrappers etc but It seems like more work than it be worth.
that's why I said I don't expect the public will ever hear of it. plans for a lower power offering have been long gone and I suspect plans never really made it beyond the brainstorming phase as I never heard of a developer working with such a hardware spec.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
Jesus man that doesn't mean "lokhart is alive"or they "said" its alive. This is exactly how misinformation spreads.

All that means is that they have not got confirmation its been cancelled. That could also just be that MS is not talking about it just in case they decide t do it three years from now or something.

Hey - I never said it was coming. DF brought it up for some reason so I, being the curious cat that I am, had some questions around what the perceived advantage for MS would be for it to exist along side Scarlett. Don't put that juju on me Ricky Bobby.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
5700xt ~9.3tf with 448gb/s and xox is 6tf with 326gb/s I see 1.55x increase in tf and only 1.37x in bandwidth, console could have even worse bandwitdh per tf ratio than 5700xt so no, we could get bandwidth penalty to performance rather than increase
What are you saying? This is just classical confirmation bias... so bent on bein right that you throw reason out the window.

First XB1X has to share that 326GB between the GPU and CPU. Second the you do not know if next gen consoles are only going to use a 256bit bus for their RAM. They could be using as much as a 320bit bus or even more which would mean they have even more bandwidth. Cause I really don't see sony and MS making the consoles they are releasing next year have only as much "total" bandwidth as the GPU from the previous year. Like that kinda design choice is just flat out stupid all considering.

And even if they were using a 256bit bus, it could mean they have more than 340GB in total RAM bandwidth exclusively for the GPU. Thats more bandwidth than the whole XB1X has.
 
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gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,203
This! Insiders can be wrong in either direction. We shouldn't just take something as truth because a slightly larger group of people "heard" the same thing. Different parties may even share the same source.

Don't think it's about larger group and more about who has the better track record .
Sure they could be wrong but until we get more facts some people sticking with who has better track record .
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Hey - I never said it was coming. DF brought it up for some reason so I, being the curious cat that I am, had some questions around what the perceived advantage for MS would be for it to exist along side Scarlett. Don't put that juju on me Ricky Bobby.
well... sorry. You responded to someone asking who said its still alive. By saying "DF"...

no as far as that person i concerned DF a "confirmed" its still alive... thats how these things go.
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
What are you saying? This is just classical confirmation bias... so bent on bein right that you throw reason out the window.

First XB1X has to share that 326GB between the GPU and CPU. Second the you do not know if next gen consoles are only going to use a 256bit bus for their RAM. They could be using as much as a 320bit bus or even more which would mean they have even more bandwidth. Cause I really don't see sony and MS making the consoles they are releasing next year have only as much "total" bandwidth as the GPU from the previous year. Like that kinda design choice is just flat out stupid all considering.
Maybe my comparison wasn't best but just read my further messages as I don't want to repeat myself.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,916
Maryland
Yep.

REgarding HWRT that Colbert made a good point of. The idea of extra /separate "cores" on the die may not be the AMD HW RT implementation - especially if you follow the patents that are there. I think it is just a turn of phrase in the interview with Colin.
I just interpret it to mean there are some sort of repeated/distributed structures vs. some monolithic central scheduler/interpreter for RT workflows.
 

Deleted member 5764

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,574
Don't think it's about larger group and more about who has the better track record .
Sure they could be wrong but until we get more facts some people sticking with who has better track record .

I definitely get that. For me personally I just read every available rumor. Regardless of source, it's all mostly meaningless information for me.

Like... It's cool to talk about this stuff, but it's not like we're making a set-in-stone purchasing decision based on rumors.
 
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