Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT8| - The Dark Tower (See Staff Post)
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Thats gonna happen regardless though even if they are single digits percent close
Games and services are gonna be most important cause both machines will be powerful next gen machines in a vacuum
How's it a fluke when one company makes a better decision than another over a period of research and development? It's not like a piece of esram snuck the fuck in there....flukely you know on every xbox one manufactured.
I agree and my previous post in this thread was exactly about that.
Just as a reminder:
Same performance.
And in the famous post about the difference in percentage Matt said it that is not only about the TFlops:
As I said in my previous post we are not in 2013. Modern GPUs have a lot of features that can impact a lot the real performance. A single number can't show the whole picture anymore.
He also asked around and his sources stated that the device's theoretical peak is 12TF/s.
If both machines are within say 10% then I can't see either side resting too heavily on the 'power crown' for PR. But if the latest rumours of nearly 30% difference are true then that's sure as shit what we're going to be seeing.
Wanting either side to have such a hardware advantage due to 'reasons' is pretty crazy IMO.
340 pages in 16 days...not great, not terrible ;)
1.6 million views...biggest thing on Era.
That has to do with power. Cell was a beast but hard to dev. Br was a new physical standard but expensive. Id hope sony learned their lesson to not overstretch in places they dont need and prioritize places they do
Vs these new console are x86 architecture and more or less a closed pc. So yeah power matters when it's easy to develop for!
Sony has done well historically when they made a good enough box that plays games at the level they need to regardless of competition at affordable price. Ps1 ps2 ps4. Ps5 should follow the trend :)
There's a difference between TF (theoretical peak GPU "power") and what that translates into in game.
Here's another thought (for those on the PS5 train like myself).
9 TF of GPU performance being used only for GPU tasks
vs
12 TF of GPU performance being used for GPU tasks and also decompression and streaming assets from an SSD (since the Sony SSD patent lists a custom ASIC to do this work).
In the patent document around the SSD, a full GTX 980 was used and was maxed out I believe - so this is a non-trivial task that can eat into your compute resources. Particularly if you are trying to use your SSD to expand the amount of RAM available at any time (you would need to be constantly streaming from the SSD as it will not be as fast as DRAM).
So if people in the know are saying that they're "close" could it be as simple as the in-game performance is very close?
My new prediction:
PS5:
I think Sony spent budget on SSD and MS spent their budget more on the GPU. When it comes to games 3rd-party will be mostly better on X Series X - apart from games heavily reliant on streaming - so some open-world games may be better on PS5, but GPU effects will be better across the board on X Series X for 3rd-party games.
For first-party, Sony games will look incredible - and I would bet that they would involve more complexity in core design elements. I think MS first-party games will have simpler design elements and will use all the added power of the GPU to scale graphics. By this I mean that games from MS first-party have to take into account XboxX and (potentially) Lockhart - I know people don't like to hear this, but not everything scales like resolution dependent effects - GPGPU compute...
As an aside about Lockhart
Imagine as a dev you're trying to create a game which is based on ridiculous realistic fluid simulations and doing so requires 6TF on it's own, the rest of your budget has to go into how to render your game on the screen - now how do you scale that to work on a XboxX and XSX and Lockhart? Without compromises? I personally think Lockhart is a big mistake - but I can see the business reason it (may) exists.
Another aside about ease of dev
I would imagine that the developers in 1st and 3rd party studios are loving the new hardware. The iteration time on changes must be reduced hugely. Here's one noddy example - imagine you're working at From and you have to tune a boss encounter (current gen), play a bit die, make changes to numbers, wait for game to reload, play a bit die, nope that wasn't a tuning issue I just f'd up (wait.... for...... loading..... screen....), etc. Next gen - play, die, make changes, instantly back into game, die, instantly back into game repeat
The benefits to tuning and QA cycles with SSDs are, I would imagine huge
Here's another thought (for those on the PS5 train like myself).
9 TF of GPU performance being used only for GPU tasks
vs
12 TF of GPU performance being used for GPU tasks and also decompression and streaming assets from an SSD (since the Sony SSD patent lists a custom ASIC to do this work).
In the patent document around the SSD, a full GTX 980 was used and was maxed out I believe - so this is a non-trivial task that can eat into your compute resources. Particularly if you are trying to use your SSD to expand the amount of RAM available at any time (you would need to be constantly streaming from the SSD as it will not be as fast as DRAM).
So if people in the know are saying that they're "close" could it be as simple as the in-game performance is very close?
My new prediction:
PS5:
- 9TF GPU - with HW RT [possibly custom and not AMD flavour] and VRS, based mainly on RDNA1 + bits from RDNA2 - so more "legacy" if you want to spin it that way
- Very custom SSD - including custom ASIC and small SRAM as detailed in patent, significantly faster than anything on the market [5GB/s or more]
- 16 Gb HBM2E - based simply on the fact that Sony are being coy about memory and Sony have a history of using strange memory types/arrangements
- Zen2 8c/16t - because this is stated so at least part of my prediction can be correct
- 12TF GPU - too much smoke and too many public figures have stated this, with AMD HW RT and VRS, all based on DirectX and RDNA2 - hence why MS were so late in getting devkits to developers
- Pretty standard NVME SSD at 1GB/s
- 16 Gb GDDR6
- Zen2 8c/16t
I think Sony spent budget on SSD and MS spent their budget more on the GPU. When it comes to games 3rd-party will be mostly better on X Series X - apart from games heavily reliant on streaming - so some open-world games may be better on PS5, but GPU effects will be better across the board on X Series X for 3rd-party games.
For first-party, Sony games will look incredible - and I would bet that they would involve more complexity in core design elements. I think MS first-party games will have simpler design elements and will use all the added power of the GPU to scale graphics. By this I mean that games from MS first-party have to take into account XboxX and (potentially) Lockhart - I know people don't like to hear this, but not everything scales like resolution dependent effects - GPGPU compute...
As an aside about Lockhart
Imagine as a dev you're trying to create a game which is based on ridiculous realistic fluid simulations and doing so requires 6TF on it's own, the rest of your budget has to go into how to render your game on the screen - now how do you scale that to work on a XboxX and XSX and Lockhart? Without compromises? I personally think Lockhart is a big mistake - but I can see the business reason it (may) exists.
Another aside about ease of dev
I would imagine that the developers in 1st and 3rd party studios are loving the new hardware. The iteration time on changes must be reduced hugely. Here's one noddy example - imagine you're working at From and you have to tune a boss encounter (current gen), play a bit die, make changes to numbers, wait for game to reload, play a bit die, nope that wasn't a tuning issue I just f'd up (wait.... for...... loading..... screen....), etc. Next gen - play, die, make changes, instantly back into game, die, instantly back into game repeat
The benefits to tuning and QA cycles with SSDs are, I would imagine huge
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Yeah but Richard can not confirm anything, only rumor, which can be discuted.
-12TF can refer to devikit
-Leak can be misinterpreted, you can find easily that developpers even if they are good to dev, don't necessarily be aware about hardware.
-Thing may/do change as journalists said.
Like i said...ms intentionally aimed low cause their priority was elsewhere. Tv nonsense and stuff. When they want power they will get it.
I don't want to believe PS5 only has 36 CUs.
I know Navi / RDNA CUs are significantly better than Polaris CUs, but still, I hope PS5 has at least 44(48) clocked at 1.8 ~ 2.0 GHz.
I know Navi / RDNA CUs are significantly better than Polaris CUs, but still, I hope PS5 has at least 44(48) clocked at 1.8 ~ 2.0 GHz.
Kinda crazy how something that old even today is as relevant as ever, hu? :)
I really dont get all the worry about either consoles specs or differences. 10tflop consoles are fine, especially with current amd hardware not being shit tier failed notebook processors, and the fact that both consoles will have SSDs make both of them game changer.
One or two or 0.5 tlfop difference is fine especially with the way this generation started with the ps4 and xbox one. Hell the original PS4 started with 1.84 so ... people need to chill here about calling either console doomed if ones a little bit faster comapred to the other.
Also I like how insiders have the info but then just censor everything and give vague reponses. Its cool the info gets verified but Klobs picture mockup is the most dissapointing thing in 2019.
One or two or 0.5 tlfop difference is fine especially with the way this generation started with the ps4 and xbox one. Hell the original PS4 started with 1.84 so ... people need to chill here about calling either console doomed if ones a little bit faster comapred to the other.
Also I like how insiders have the info but then just censor everything and give vague reponses. Its cool the info gets verified but Klobs picture mockup is the most dissapointing thing in 2019.
TLDR: This guy goes by the name of Boris Larin aka "oct0xor". He worked with Sony's Interactive Security team in Japan for 2 weeks. The overall discussion was about hacking Sony PlayStation Blu-ray Drives.
If you check the time of the video at 44:08, the wording at the bottom says, "Sony is about to announce something really awesome". The video was streamed yesterday.
How so? You don't have to have the most powerful console every gen
I am saying sony should focus on things beyond power and not lose focus of the overall strategy for that. Power is great but there are other things too. Ms havebeen thirsty for that power crown specifically and sony....imo...cant compete in that area
Thats why i never thought ps5 would be stonger than nextbox. At most they would be close
No disrespect but you blacked out more than half of the specs.
Sony has always gone for power .
Companies coming out later than them taking power crown don't mean that is not what there were aiming for.
Hell power is one of the reasons why PS2 kill dreamcast .
the last TF always matter. Look about One X and Pro with RDR 2. No stutter on X, Pro isn't as good. It's all about the details. The more you have, the more you can get stable FPS for example
Yes. I know. The poster I was responding to said that because Navi hadn't been announced when the 12TF XBSX rumors started that that supported that it could actually not be 12TF, except by some TF conversion matrix.
No power was part of there marketing.
There was more than one reason but power was part of it .
Breaking things stuff down to 1 thing don't really make sense.
The rumors of ps2 was what killed dreamcast...and gc and xbox rumors too. Also ps2 came out after dc too..and so? Ps3 came out a year after 360
Trust me fam, I am the *last* person who would imply that Game Pass' crazy deals are sustainable. MS is 100% in "startup-burning-VC-funds-to-juice-up-the-initial-momentum" mode... but at the end of the day, it works. MS doesn't need to do it forever — they just need to do it for long enough that their perception in the the market changes. Combine it with being able to market having the most powerful hardware and they will have a much stronger perception than they did last gen. MS are working hard and Sony should not underestimate them at all. They won't be doing themselves any favours if the perf gap between the two really does end up being 20-30%.
The only company that does not care about power is Nintendo, and you can see it in the tech that they use.
Sony cares about power just like Microsoft. If they have it, they will talk about it. This is why you used to hear comments like next gen starts when we say so, or 1080p makes you a better gamer. It is why you see Microsoft consistently talking about how the Xbox One X is the best place to play games.
What may have happened if all of this lines up with what the GitHub repository is correct is that someone maybe underestimated just how far the competition may have been willing to go. It is a 50/50 chance that you will have the best hardware, unless you go bat shit crazy on budgetary allocations.
Nobody are telling that RDNA isn't announced. We all know that next gen is RDNA. We are arguing the TF count.
He's a tech journalist with contacts inside MS (and elsewhere) and Brad was publicly accusing him off not knowing what he was talking about. How would you react?
The point is power has always been part of what Sony does in a consoles for value.
It's not a matter of the competition but how they are , it never been just good enough minds set .
Of course you take budget into account but always go for best they can get .
What is it with people responding to posts without following the discussion back? Not going to do this a second time. If you want to understand my post go back and read the whole chain. I'm well aware what is being discussed and what the points of contention are.
It would be great if they are more CUs, but ultimately we're still getting a significantly less conservative console design than we had going into this current gen.
He should probably ignore some random nobody fanboys jabbering
No disrespect to you but his track record is very good compared to certain other "insiders" and that doc confirms lockhart way back.
If the specs not true and Sony close you could also have a gen where there no clear winning power wise.
Time will tell.
That's the sanest take I've seen in this thread for the past week, which isn't something I expected from Jez. Respect.
If they "always go for the best they can get" they would not have went for a jaguar CPU and 1.84 tflop machine when Epic were begging them and MS for a 2.4 tflop machine
They'll go with what gets them a good mass market price and does the job. Yes power matters to them more than Nintendo, but its not a matter of going for bleeding edge at all cost and loosing sight of other factors.
This might have been the wrong place to put my musing on the power of the PS5, i just have never thought it some sort of melt down if PS5 isnt some 12+ RDNA monster, its due to people getting their expectations hyped up that it becomes controversial, especially when we're dealing in the rumor mill
Even as we talk about it being marginally weaker, a 9tflop RDNA chip is still something over 10tflops GCN in terms of the GPU compared to current gen.
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