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Retro AV Thread |OT| RGB, CRTs, Upscalers, and More

flyover

Member
Oct 26, 2017
596
Yeah, I don’t even know who he is, but I thought the video was useful for the captures of various consoles over the last several minutes. Skimmed the rest of it.
 

flyover

Member
Oct 26, 2017
596
He’s made some laughable capture comparisons before. Don’t know about this video specially though
Compared to the other videos I saw on the mClassic earlier today (maybe more are up now), his comparisons were actually the most useful. As far as what he and anyone else were saying about the device, I barely even listened, because it seemed they were all sponsored. (“But that won’t stop me from being objective.”)
 

Kyle Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,134
There actually maaaaay be some cases you'd want to do so. But it probably depends on the systems you're using. My experience is mostly with the Framemeister, though, so ymmv.

You likely wouldn't need it for a lot of 2-D 8- and 16-bit games without scanlines. Not as much point in smoothing many NES and Genesis games, though it can be fun.

But for scanlines, the mCable sometimes comes in handy for me--not because of the system or upscaler, but because of my Sony 4k TV. My TV does its own thing (i.e., not 1:1 nearest-neighbor) when upscaling 720p content to 4k. It tries to outsmart the FM's scanlines based on their surrounding colors, and, as a result, sometimes puts them too close together or too far apart. Using the mCable upscales the 720p content to 1080p and keeps the scanlines looking pretty good and evenly spaced--unlike the FM itself at 1080p. My TV does nearest-neighbor for 1080p to 4k, so it looks pretty great. A little soft, but nice scanlines. (That said, the OSSC's scanlines already work better out of the box, for me.)

I do like the way the mCable makes 3D games look, especially PS1 games or 480i PS2 and Wii games from the FM. Same for 480p Wii component through the OSSC. But I would be interested to see how the mCable affects the OSSC's bob deinterlacing (and its flicker) on 480i content. Might be an improvement! Gonna have to try it myself, sometime.

Edit: By the way, Marseille just put their new device, the mClassic, on Indiegogo for $70: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mclassic-the-first-plug-play-graphics-processor#/

Might be a better option than the cable. Definitely cheaper, at least in early access. This video gave a decent overview of it, with examples:
Why is the blacks crushed in his Luigi's Mansion example? Is this an error on his end or an issue with the mClassic?
 
OP
OP
ShinJohnpv

ShinJohnpv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
654
Can we please not link Koralick videos in this thread. We strive for accuracy here, not what ever bullshit Adam is pulling out of his ass on any given day. Dude is a fuck wit that doesn't know what he's talking about in 99% of his videos and is just spreading miss information.
 

flyover

Member
Oct 26, 2017
596
Can we please not link Koralick videos in this thread. We strive for accuracy here, not what ever bullshit Adam is pulling out of his ass on any given day. Dude is a fuck wit that doesn't know what he's talking about in 99% of his videos and is just spreading miss information.
Sorry, I honestly didn't even know who he was! Dumped the link from my post:
Edit: Removed video link to some guy who sucks and that everyone hates!
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
For the record, I don’t hate Adam. I just think he’s out of his depth when he’s not talking about his enthusiasm for Dreamcast. It’s an annoyance when people initially come in here having been uninformed by him, but it’s not hard to set people straight.

Back on to the mCable, I actually like the concept, but I think the execution needs a lot of improvement. The new dongle solves one problem. As for picture quality, I’m gonna need more comparisons not done by Adam that aren’t crushed into oblivion.
 
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flyover

Member
Oct 26, 2017
596
Thanks. Just felt guilty, because I had no idea about the guy. So, has anyone reliable posted any thoughts on and/or comparison shots of the mClassic?
 
OP
OP
ShinJohnpv

ShinJohnpv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
654
Sorry, I honestly didn't even know who he was! Dumped the link from my post:
It's all good and I'm sorry if that came out harsher than I meant it. It wasn't directed at you and at Adam. I really can't stand that dude or his videos. He just spreads so much miss information, and refuses to back down on so much of it. It's frustrating.

Bob from RetroRGB did a video on the mCable to see if it added lag.

Linus from Linus Tech Tips also did a video on it.


I don't think My Life In Gaming has looked at it but I could be wrong.

It looks like Digital Foundry did one as well.

 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Wait for either John Linneman from DF or MLiG for more thorough analysis.

What I’ve been able to gather from some videos out there is inconclusive. You just gotta have captures from people who at least know the basics of matching color spaces. Otherwise it’s hard to rule out user error when you catch a difference.
 
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DarknessTear

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,192
I've had an OSSC for a while but I've been stuck on just the simple 2x (bob) setting on PS2 exclusively. I've heard you can tweak some settings to get up to 5x with some TVs but I haven't figured anything out yet. I don't even know what resolutions my Vizio P50-C1 supports. Must not be many though if it blacks out on most things... I wonder if my receiver is related to the problem? Maybe I should try hooking up directly to my TV.

Edit: Well, I got passthru to work finally by hooking up to my TV directly at least...!
 
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Belker

Member
Oct 27, 2017
139
Today I decided that I wanted to go through my Wii and GC backlog (maybe PS2). THing is, I have a Samsung 4K TV without component inputs.

At the same time, I read on here about the Marseille mClassic. I ordered one hoping it would make games tolerable to look at.

What should I get to use my consoles with the mClassic on my TV?

I'm not a super retro gamer, so something I can buy on Amazon for £20 or less would be ideal. I did think about the Wii2HDMI as I can get one for £6. I've got a bigger Nintendo backlog than PS2.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Finally have time to play with the OSSC in my main entertainment hub... Disappointment.

My plasma does not like line multiplied 480p. Ugh... I’m gutted! I won’t be buying a new TV for a good while as I’m currently unemployed (hence why I finally had time to seriously tinker with my toys, lol).

Also my goddamn og XBox’s disc tray is going nuts. Stuff rarely ever just works.
 

flyover

Member
Oct 26, 2017
596
That sucks about the OSSC and your TV. My TV can't handle some outputs from mine (e.g., [email protected]), which I can live with, but failing at 480p is a bummer. Does it just not work at all?
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
That sucks about the OSSC and your TV. My TV can't handle some outputs from mine (e.g., [email protected]), which I can live with, but failing at 480p is a bummer. Does it just not work at all?
I’ve yet to try multiples of 240 as I use the AVS, Nt, and Sg for most 2D stuff. Maybe I’ll try out the Saturn later though. I get the test pattern on start up and I can see 480p passthrough and the line doubled 1080i Xbox dashboard just fine.

Before now, I’ve been making light use of the OSSC to familiarize myself with it more easily, on what little free time I used to have, on a POS pc monitor I have and it worked more broadly on that.

Edit: ... Maybe the TV has a PC mode? ...
 
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Ogs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,508
Man, I’m gutted. I got a SCART to HDMI adapter today to hook my PS2 to my TV. Output set to 1080p and 60Htz, which on my TV, then acts in PC mode, so no nasty post processing stuff and additional input lag. First thought ? Picture quality is great (as great as it can be for a £30 converter I guess). TV set to 4:3, this thing is perfect let’s go ......

R-Type Delta was in the tray already so fired it up. Yup loving this picture...... then I moved the ship. So much damn input lag ! Playable, but for games that require twitchy movement it’s ...... horrible.

So close to having the perfect solution without splooging way more money. Gutted.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Man, I’m gutted. I got a SCART to HDMI adapter today to hook my PS2 to my TV. Output set to 1080p and 60Htz, which on my TV, then acts in PC mode, so no nasty post processing stuff and additional input lag. First thought ? Picture quality is great (as great as it can be for a £30 converter I guess). TV set to 4:3, this thing is perfect let’s go ......

R-Type Delta was in the tray already so fired it up. Yup loving this picture...... then I moved the ship. So much damn input lag ! Playable, but for games that require twitchy movement it’s ...... horrible.

So close to having the perfect solution without splooging way more money. Gutted.
Everyone that asks, I tell to avoid that scaler. You got that scaler, it’s not just a converter, I already probably know the one. lol

It lags, it smears, it’s just plain terrible. If you aren’t too picky about RGB Vs Component and SVid get the RetroTink. That’s actually a proper and true converter.
 

Ogs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,508
Everyone that asks, I tell to avoid that scaler. You got that scaler, it’s not just a converter, I already probably know the one. lol

It lags, it smears, it’s just plain terrible. If you aren’t too picky about RGB Vs Component and SVid get the RetroTink. That’s actually a proper and true converter.
This is the one - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01MU6Y5J8?pf_rd_p=330fbd82-d4fe-42e5-9c16-d4b886747c64&pf_rd_r=D4GKQJEJ9E5FKD6MG99Q

Does anywhere sell this retro tink in the UK that you know of?

Edit - Found one, still a bit on the expensive side for my liking, although I guess theres not much of a choice if I want input lag free device.
 
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Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
This is the one - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01MU6Y5J8?pf_rd_p=330fbd82-d4fe-42e5-9c16-d4b886747c64&pf_rd_r=D4GKQJEJ9E5FKD6MG99Q

Does anywhere sell this retro tink in the UK that you know of?

Edit - Found one, still a bit on the expensive side for my liking, although I guess theres not much of a choice if I want input lag free device.
Yep, that’s exactly the Adam Koralic special I was thinking of. lol

It’s like I say: You can flush money in the toilet getting something that is not up to task and have to keep looking to no avail, or spend a bit more money for a one and done deal on a device designed to work in the actual manner you’re looking for.
 

Ogs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,508
Yep, that’s exactly the Adam Koralic special I was thinking of. lol

It’s like I say: You can flush money in the toilet getting something that is not up to task and have to keep looking to no avail, or spend a bit more money for a one and done deal on a device designed to work in the actual manner you’re looking for.
Think thats my only real choice (or the OSSC seing as its its not too far off RetroTink price in the UK at least - just under £120 vs £170ish for kitted out OSSC ... when its in stock). Especially with modern TV's no longer taking scart, or 240p over component.

This is probably one of those ye olde battles of yore, but which is better, component or RGB (SCART) ? I always sticked with SCART as thats what I had with my PS1 decades ago and the quality was the shit. I only heard about component around the Xbox 360 days because it allowed higher resolutions, but people were also saying it was better than RGB SCART ..... and of course there is no definitive answer I can find, mainly people saying they are basically exactly the same.

I ask as when I decide to get either Tink or OSSC, I also need to buy a high quality cable to go with it, and they aint cheap either so id rather just buy 1.

How does the Tink and OSSC deal with games that switch resolutions in-game (like Silent hill) ?
 
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Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Think thats my only real choice (or the OSSC seing as its its not too far off RetroTink price in the UK at least - just under £120 vs £170ish for kitted out OSSC ... when its in stock).

This is probably one of those ye olde battles of yore, but which is better, component or RGB (SCART) ? I always sticked with SCART as thats what I had with my PS1 decades ago and the quality was the shit. I only heard about component around the Xbox 360 days because it allowed higher resolutions, but people were also saying it was better than RGB SCART ..... and of course there is no definitive answer I can find, mainly people saying they are basically exactly the same.

I ask as when I decide to get either Tink or OSSC, I also need to buy a high quality cable to go with it, and they aint cheap either so id rather just buy 1.

How does the Tink and OSSC deal with games that switch resolutions in-game (like Silent hill) ?
This is a very informative vid on RetroTink straight from the horse’s mouth.

It shows the switch delay is pretty much the same as an OSSC. Tink has a leg up on OSSC in compatibility. Seems more devices are fine with the Tink’s line doubling. Which leads to my next point... the OSSC’s line multiplication isn’t guaranteed to work with your equipment. This makes it difficult for me to recommend for noobies looking for something easy to use and that just works without worry. There’s a small TV compatibility list that should make things easier if your TV is listed. https://www.videogameperfection.com/forums/topic/tv-compatibility/

Otherwise, I would say that if you have multiple TVs to use it on and since you say it’s closer in price in the UK it could be worth the chance. If all goes well, you could get more use out of the OSSC since it will also process 480p to a higher resolution. A feature not available at all on the Tink - I believe it flat out doesn’t accept 480p even to passthrough.

As for component Vs RGB... RGB is better, buuuuuut... People who say there is no difference are wrong, and most people who say they notice a difference in X Y Z characteristics during playback are also wrong. lol

“It’s sharper” Wrong
“It’s richer” Wrong
“One is more washed out than the other/I like the black detail in one more than the other” Wrong

Component compression has very specific artifacts (and regardless of what people tell you, standard component does have artifacts/loss) that are visible in test patterns and you’ll likely only ever notice them during actual playback only if you really know what to look for. So for most people they are effectively the same.
 

Ogs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,508
This is a very informative vid on RetroTink straight from the horse’s mouth.

It shows the switch delay is pretty much the same as an OSSC. Tink has a leg up on OSSC in compatibility. Seems more devices are fine with the Tink’s line doubling. Which leads to my next point... the OSSC’s line multiplication isn’t guaranteed to work with your equipment. This makes it difficult for me to recommend for noobies looking for something easy to use and that just works without worry. There’s a small TV compatibility list that should make things easier if your TV is listed. https://www.videogameperfection.com/forums/topic/tv-compatibility/

Otherwise, I would say that if you have multiple TVs to use it on and since you say it’s closer in price in the UK it could be worth the chance. If all goes well, you could get more use out of the OSSC since it will also process 480p to a higher resolution. A feature not available at all on the Tink - I believe it flat out doesn’t accept 480p even to passthrough.

As for component Vs RGB... RGB is better, buuuuuut... People who say there is no difference are wrong, and most people who say they notice a difference in X Y Z characteristics during playback are also wrong. lol

“It’s sharper” Wrong
“It’s richer” Wrong
“One is more washed out than the other/I like the black detail in one more than the other” Wrong

Component compression has very specific artifacts (and regardless of what people tell you, standard component does have artifacts/loss) that are visible in test patterns and you’ll likely only ever notice them during actual playback only if you really know what to look for. So for most people they are effectively the same.
Thanks mate, your posts have been really helpful. I think I will be going with the OSSC (when they are back in stock, with a lower price when they are apparently!), as I like the idea of having a few more options to make a cleaner image, should the TV support it. Guess its the only way going forward (if I dont want additional input lag anyway).

Only thing that niggles me is that, over SCART currently, if I play a game that switches resolution (like Silent Hill) mid game, there is zero wait between the switch, acts just like it would back in the day, I'm guessing because of the nature of how the AV socket works, but its nice anyway. But scart aint happening no more so I will just have to get over it :) Looks like the OSSC can do it rapidly, but then its down to the TV with how it deals with it. I wonder if thats something they will ever overcome (without resulting to frame buffering).

Anyway its only a few games that do this so i'm making it a bigger issue than I need to. Roll on VGP getting some in stock.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,772
Thanks mate, your posts have been really helpful. I think I will be going with the OSSC (when they are back in stock, with a lower price when they are apparently!), as I like the idea of having a few more options to make a cleaner image, should the TV support it. Guess its the only way going forward (if I dont want additional input lag anyway).

Only thing that niggles me is that, over SCART currently, if I play a game that switches resolution (like Silent Hill) mid game, there is zero wait between the switch, acts just like it would back in the day, I'm guessing because of the nature of how the AV socket works, but its nice anyway. But scart aint happening no more so I will just have to get over it :) Looks like the OSSC can do it rapidly, but then its down to the TV with how it deals with it. I wonder if thats something they will ever overcome (without resulting to frame buffering).

Anyway its only a few games that do this so i'm making it a bigger issue than I need to. Roll on VGP getting some in stock.
I've found the delay to be pretty acceptable on my Sony Bravia, games like Chrono Cross are playable for me but I know for others the delay can up to four or five seconds before their TV picks up the signal.

There isn't any reason to go component over SCART if you already have some cables and are leaning towards the OSSC, I have six consoles setup with retrogamingcables.uk and they've been great.
 

Ogs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,508
I actually ordered a SCART CSYNC cable from them today as soon as they were in stock, so I'm set for when the OSSC is available again. Should be interesting seing how much better it looks on my current HDTV until then (current SCART cable as I have now seen is actually composhit).
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,772
I actually ordered a SCART CSYNC cable from them today as soon as they were in stock, so I'm set for when the OSSC is available again. Should be interesting seing how much better it looks on my current HDTV until then.
PS1 looks amazing at line 3x on my Sony Bravia, that said be prepared for some dithering which may not have been visible on your CRT. The only other frustrating thing is that the PS1 has a tonne of output resolutions; 320x240, 384x240, 512x240 etc etc so if you're like me and want to set up optimised modes in profiles you'll end up using three or four just for PS1.
 

kubev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,519
Pacifica, CA
Anyone here have any experience in getting a Razer Ripsaw HD capturing device to detect either 640x480 or 1280x960 from a Dreamcast running through an OSSC? The image passes through the Razer Ripsaw HD to my TV without any issues, but I can't seem to get OBS to detect the video signal from the OSSC. Very briefly, the Razer Ripsaw HD detected SOMETHING at 1280x960, which I assume to be the OSSC when set to 2x mode (as opposed to passthrough) for the 480p signal coming from the Dreamcast. Any thoughts?
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
I’ve been wondering about these DVDO video processors. Does anyone here own one?

I hear people can use them to normalize output from the OSSC, but I’d only find that really worth it if it allows for full aspect control and framing of 960p in 1080p windows to circumvent interpolation.
 
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Astral/H3X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,395

This took forever. Tried to
take advantage of the wire mesh for cable management, and I think it's worked out really well.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
lol! It just now occurred to me that the solution to my my OSSC compatibility issues was right under my nose... The goddamn Framemeister! It can normalize 960p from the OSSC. Even better, because it can probably allow me to maintain the integer without interpolation. God, what a dunce I can be. Took me this long to make that connection. 😆
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,054
Japan
So apparently even d-terminal (component) is gone from Japanese TVs now.

The screen blacking out for a few seconds upon resolution change isn't a thing for monitors when not connected via HDMI, is it?
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,054
Japan
If they treat 240p the same as 480i (and most probably do), no.
But for games like silent Hill and Chrono cross (games that switch to higher resolutions) they might? I own an xrgb3 (frameneister precursor) and it never did it with my tv in the past, but but I'm worried that I could get burned by a new monitor if I jump in without knowing what I'm doing.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Well yeah, 480i is the higher resolution they switch to. If a monitor just deinterlaces 240p like 480i, it shouldn’t have any interruption because it doesn’t care whether it has one field or 2 in the process. It’ll be mishandling 240p, but that’s another issue.

Edit: Oh, are you still using the xrgb3? IDK, much about it. Having digital out might change things.
 
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Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,054
Japan
Yeah, I'm just worried I might get burned.

I bought a Sony Wega before, which was fine, but strange scrape like figures started appearing that grew over time. They weren't too noticable (less so than a crack in a screen), but I stupidly got rid of it. Now I'm thinking about picking up another.
 

Jimnymebob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,602
This is a gonna be a very vague question, because I can't really remember what I'm trying to do exactly, but I remember there being a button combination for playing certain PAL Wii VC games that altered the picture setting in someway (may have been setting it to 480p, but I know it was something).
Does anyone know what it is?
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
This is a gonna be a very vague question, because I can't really remember what I'm trying to do exactly, but I remember there being a button combination for playing certain PAL Wii VC games that altered the picture setting in someway (may have been setting it to 480p, but I know it was something).
Does anyone know what it is?
Pretty sure it was to make old 2D VC games output native 240p. Don’t know the combination myself because I never played 2D games on Wii VC
 

Kyle Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,134
Are OSSC timings worth doing for 480p (PS2 through PS3/Xbox/Wii) or should I leave them at default settings?
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,772
In my experience they’re not really worth it. The OSSC does a brilliant job at default settings.

That said they’re definitely worth doing for 480i PS2 games.
 

Kyle Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,134
So I've been considering the MClassic while you can still get it cheaper on their IndieGoGo, but two things are keeping me from grabbing it:

1. The sharpening filter. It really is quite strong, to the point of haloing text.
2. The pixel aspect ratio issue that I saw showed off in a video review.

Hopefully if they do a third version of this device, it fixes these issues.

In my experience they’re not really worth it. The OSSC does a brilliant job at default settings.

That said they’re definitely worth doing for 480i PS2 games.
I have my setup for my launch PS3 to do deinterlacing on my PS2 library, so it sends a 480p signal via component to the OSSC, so I thankfully don't have to worry about timing then from the sounds of it.