• To celebrate the release of Halo: The Master Chief Collection on Steam, Xbox Games Studios has provided 5 Steam copies of the game and 5 Xbox One copies of the game! We will be giving these away in the Gaming Giveaways |OT|. Some Steam copies will also be given away to the PC Gaming Era community.
  • An old favorite feature returns: Q&ERA is back! This time we'll be collecting questions for Remedy Entertainment, makers of Max Payne, Alan Wake, Quantum Break, and Control. Members can submit questions for the next 3 days, 15 hours, 28 minutes, 57 seconds. Submissions will close on Dec 12, 2019 at 12:00 AM.

Rewatching Star Wars 4-6: TLJ got Luke Right.

Jan 3, 2018
757
I don’t even get how Luke’s impulse to kill Kylo in TLJ goes against what we saw in ROTJ.

He nearly murdered Vader, well past the point where he could defend himself, over the insinuation that he’ll try and get Leia to switch sides.

Then he took a moment to cool off and realize that wasn’t the right thing to do. Just like he did with Kylo, except even faster. He ignited the blade and then immediately decided against it.

But yeah keep saying TLJ Luke murders children (Kylo looked like a teenager by that point anyway, not exactly a defenseless youngling) or whatever.
Luke was baited into it with manipulation by an opponent with a weapon.

Kylo was asleep.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
21,478
Luke only saw that because he pulled out his lightsaber on Ben.
He saw a force vision of what Kylo would become, (that came true btw), he reacted on instinct to said vision before immediately coming back to his senses.

He’d never done anything prior to Luke going into his bedroom.
You don't do something that devastating if you weren't already messed up in some way. The reason Luke went to check on him in the first place was because he knew something was up.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,090
Nah, your wrong. Luke was a completely different character by RotJ and he grew into a good Jedi.

Rian Johnson got the character wrong. Simple. It wasn’t awful, but it wasn’t right.
People's hate boner for Rian is so weird. What about TLJ characterization of Luke went against what JJ set up in TFA? Luke let the First Order run wild for 6+ years, didn't stop 5 planets from blowing up and let Han die. Where was Luke? Was he supposed to be deep in Jedi meditation and just lost track of time? Dude was sulking on an island at the end of TFA.

At the end of the day Luke was always an imperfect emotional boy scout. Between Empire and Return of the Jedi, less than a year went by. Dude was not a good Jedi by RotJ but his connection with Vader allowed him to bring balance to the force. Just like with Anakin Luke started his training too late in life. He was never going to be the perfect zen figure like Yoda or Qui-Gon Jinn because he never learned to control his emotions fully. Thus how we got his failing with Kylo. He had a moment of weakness were he contemplated killing his nephew because he had a premonition of what was to come. Luke didn't go through with it but he threw himself in exile out of guilt for allowing it to get to that point. Add to the fact that while in exile he learns all the shit the jedi's did during the prequels and Lukes depression for not only wasting his life trying to join this broken system but dragging his nephew into makes sense.

This all comes from a casual fan who only watches the films and not any of the EU stuff but Lukes character tracks.

 

Haloid1177

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,498
the man who played Luke hates how Luke was portrayed in TLJ

I don't know what else you people want
Yeah because actors know best when it comes to character arcs and scripts and everything in general. I adore Mark but nah his idea of what he should be was clouded by being a god in the old EU. There’s nothing in the original trilogy or new trilogy to point towards that.
 

Plum

The Fallen
May 31, 2018
7,957
Your interpretation of Luke's character isn't fact, it's just what you believe to be the case based on your own judgement (and what TLJ told you). The idea that any character flaws are what that character is 'forever' is just as equally valid as the idea that characters shouldn't repeat the flaws of their past when they've already grown past them; saying that either is objectively 'correct' is a fool's errand in the end because you cannot factually 'prove' anything in regards to who Luke Skywalker 'is.'
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,929
The same Luke who thought Vader could be redeemed just gave up on Kylo. "Lost cause, not worth the time, let the Sith have the Galaxy instead."
You do realize Luke was close to killing Vader before he regained his composure? Luke has always been a very impulsive character, it's a major flaw of his. It's why it's understandable that he had that 1 second thought of killing Ben until realizing that it was a stupid move. Unfortunately for him, Ben woke up and interprets that event differently.
 
Jan 3, 2018
757
You do realize Luke was close to killing Vader before he regained his composure? Luke has always been a very impulsive character, it's a major flaw of his. It's why it's understandable that he had that 1 second thought of killing Ben until realizing that it was a stupid move. Unfortunately for him, Ben woke up and interprets that event differently.
Luke was baited into it with manipulation by an opponent with a weapon.

Kylo was asleep.
 

Mengy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,202
His perspective on the idea of redemption changed after he personally lost everything he had built and witnessed the death and destruction firsthand. This all makes complete sense.
It might make sense to you but it does not to me. The character of Luke from the OT was a hopeful and positive one by the end of RotJ. He strived to see the best in people, not the worst, and the Luke from RotJ would not have tried to kill the son of Han and Leia in his sleep. He also would not have given up hope and fled to hide on a faraway planet in solitude to leave his friends and family to fend for themselves. Not in my opinion at least, and not in Mark's opinion either I might add.

Maybe you enjoyed Luke from TLJ, but he was terribly disappointing to me. It felt like Luke's character had been written by someone who hated the character IMHO.
 

Burrman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,953
The Last Jedi killed all the hype I had for Episode 9. Not being hyperbolic here.

And the reason why The Last Jedi killed all my hype for Episode 9 was precisely for they way Luke was portrayed. Before TLJ happened, Luke was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever. It really hurt when Rey was able to defeat him on the island.

And Luke should not have been a projection in the final scene against Kylo. He should have been there, showing lots of Jedi skills... maybe defeating all those AT-AT vehicles by himself using the Force or something.
Are you being sarcastic?
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,556
It might make sense to you but it does not to me. The character of Luke from the OT was a hopeful and positive one by the end of RotJ. He strived to see the best in people, not the worst, and the Luke from RotJ would not have tried to kill the son of Han and Leia in his sleep. He also would not have given up hope and fled to hide on a faraway planet in solitude to leave his friends and family to fend for themselves. Not in my opinion at least, and not in Mark's opinion either I might add.

Maybe you enjoyed Luke from TLJ, but he was terribly disappointing to me. It felt like Luke's character had been written by someone who hated the character IMHO.
I agree it makes sense for those who say it does. It was just written poorly as shit. Their failure was in selling me on half their ideas in The Last Jedi.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,985
People were exposed to over 3 decades of EU material where Luke didn't do much of anything besides be the SW equivalent of goku. A near flawless man who did hilariously ludicrous things with the force.
I guess that kind of contextualizes some of the complaints for me in a different way. I was wondering why so many people saw Luke as an interesting hero and wanted something that sounded really corny and unnuanced to me.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,090
He’d never done anything prior to Luke going into his bedroom.
Kylo burned down the Jedi temple, gathered the future Knights of Ren and massacred the remaining students that night. It's implied the Kylo was already scheming something before Luke came into his bedroom. Luke just moved up the timetable.
 

spootime

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,497
I think I'm OK with Luke being a failure at the start of TLJ. However, the Luke at the end of ROTJ would not have ignited his lightsaber over his sleeping nephew. People can talk about the "force vision" he received but I hope people can understand that there's just an absolutely massive leap between having a vision of something possibly occurring in the future and then pulling a weapon on your own blood while they're sleeping.
 

Hagi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,248
He saw a force vision of what Kylo would become, (that came true btw), he reacted on instinct to said vision before immediately coming back to his senses.


You don't do something that devastating if you weren't already messed up in some way. The reason Luke went to check on him in the first place was because he knew something was up.
Luke’s actions or inactions depending on how you look at it are why that force vision came true. I actually really liked that it was Luke that pushed him off the edge in a moment of weakness. Snoke (or Palpatine?) might have had their tendrils in him but it was Luke that made him into what he is.

The only parts of the film I liked were the scenes with Luke, Rey and Kylo. I only wish the rest was that good.
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,892
Luke is a good person who can be reckless and often panics when he’s afraid.

ESB: Suddenly abandons his Jedi training after he sees a vision of Han and Leia on Bespin, falls into Vader’s trap, loses his hand and barely escapes capture.

ROTJ: The Emperor taunts him which causes him to lash out and try to decapitate him, Vader has to stop him. Later when Vader threatens to turn Leia he attacks in a blind rage, cuts his fathers arm off and is seconds away from killing him before he comes to his senses.

TLJ: A vision of his nephew’s murderous future frightens him into drawing his lightsaber which he immediately regrets.

I don’t really see any inconsistency in the character. Sure you can say that OT Luke would never give up, and he probably wouldn’t, but 30 years have passed and Luke made a terrible mistake that destroyed his academy and pushed his nephew to the dark side. It’s understandable that he would become depressed and think the galaxy was better off without him. Eventually he got over it, accepted his mistake and rejoined the fight in a tremendous display of his skill with the Force. I thought it was a poignant and bittersweet way to handle the character.
 

Burrman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,953
I think I'm OK with Luke being a failure at the start of TLJ. However, the Luke at the end of ROTJ would not have ignited his lightsaber over his sleeping nephew. People can talk about the "force vision" he received but I hope people can understand that there's just an absolutely massive leap between having a vision of something possibly occurring in the future and then pulling a weapon on your own blood while they're sleeping.
You know people change in 30 years? How do you know what Luke would or wouldn’t do? I get shocked daily how many good people I grew up with turn out to be garbage later on in life. One of my best friends growing up is serving life for shooting someone in the head. When I was told, I didn’t believe it. People change.
 

Bragg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,546
Arkansas
He saw a force vision of what Kylo would become, (that came true btw), he reacted on instinct to said vision before immediately coming back to his senses.


You don't do something that devastating if you weren't already messed up in some way. The reason Luke went to check on him in the first place was because he knew something was up.
Which is exactly the situation I just explained rings false.

Nothing Kylo does is worse than Vader.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,090
I think I'm OK with Luke being a failure at the start of TLJ. However, the Luke at the end of ROTJ would not have ignited his lightsaber over his sleeping nephew. People can talk about the "force vision" he received but I hope people can understand that there's just an absolutely massive leap between having a vision of something possibly occurring in the future and then pulling a weapon on your own blood while they're sleeping.
Skywalker eventually became aware of the darkness which threatened his nephew's soul. He felt a dark movement in the Force, which eventually brought him to his nephew's bedroom one evening. Standing over his sleeping student, Skywalker reached out and sensed an evil, corrupting influence within Ben. The immediacy and severity of the threat caused the Jedi Master to instinctively draw his lightsaber, intending even for a brief moment to kill his apprentice, though the desire to kill his nephew vanished in an instant, and Skywalker was immediately filled with shame.
Between ESB and RotJ Luke had less than a year of actual Jedi training. I don't know why people think he'd become a zen jedi master. Like Anakin before him Luke was too old to start his training. At that age Luke was never going to be able to master his emotions.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
21,478
It might make sense to you but it does not to me. The character of Luke from the OT was a hopeful and positive one by the end of RotJ. He strived to see the best in people, not the worst, and the Luke from RotJ would not have tried to kill the son of Han and Leia in his sleep.
I swear people only paid attention to Kylo's version of events and nothing else. Luke didn't attempt to murder Kylo. He instinctually reacted to a force vision of death and destruction. Force visions are incredibly visceral and realistic:


Luke's initial instinct passed in an instant.

He also would not have given up hope and fled to hide on a faraway planet in solitude to leave his friends and family to fend for themselves
That Luke hadn't experienced the tragedy that his older incarnation would, we don't know how we'd react to trauma unless we experience it ourselves.

Which is exactly the situation I just explained rings false.

Nothing Kylo does is worse than Vader.
Luke never saw the things Vader did, hell I don't think he even saw the dude force choke anybody. He personally experienced what kylo had done.
 

TheGhost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,190
Long Island
Glover wasn't a good Lando, he was a good impersonator.

But yeah, Luke at the end of Jedi was not the Lule shown in TLJ. The Luke in TLJ is a new hope Luke.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,929
Luke is a good person who can be reckless and often panics when he’s afraid.

ESB: Suddenly abandons his Jedi training after he sees a vision of Han and Leia on Bespin, falls into Vader’s trap, loses his hand and barely escapes capture.

ROTJ: The Emperor taunts him which causes him to lash out and try to decapitate him, Vader has to stop him. Later when Vader threatens to turn Leia he attacks in a blind rage, cuts his fathers arm off and is seconds away from killing him before he comes to his senses.

TLJ: A vision of his nephew’s murderous future frightens him into drawing his lightsaber which he immediately regrets.

I don’t really see any inconsistency in the character. Sure you can say that OT Luke would never give up, and he probably wouldn’t, but 30 years have passed and Luke made a terrible mistake that destroyed his academy and pushed his nephew to the dark side. It’s understandable that he would become depressed and think the galaxy was better off without him. Eventually he got over it, accepted his mistake and rejoined the fight in a tremendous display of his skill with the Force. I thought it was a poignant and bittersweet way to handle the character.
Precisely. People have deified Luke Skywalker and almost forgot that he has human flaws that are rather consistent.

Luke was baited into it with manipulation by an opponent with a weapon.

Kylo was asleep.
So? Both acts are still impulsive. Being baited into almost killing someone is just as bad as almost killing someone because you were reacting negatively to visions of your pupil being the next incarnation of death, and destruction.
 

Bragg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,546
Arkansas
Kylo burned down the Jedi temple, gathered the future Knights of Ren and massacred the remaining students that night. It's implied the Kylo was already scheming something before Luke came into his bedroom. Luke just moved up the timetable.
It’s also fact that Luke standing over Ben with his saber drawn pushed Kylo over the edge. That’s why Luke’s so torn up. He partly caused it.

Again the film is trying to have it both ways.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
21,478
Take it up RJ. The film literally calls him a boy.
Yet we see kylo as a man, it's clearly Adam Driver, right there in the scene, very clearly an adult, I suppose kylo is a child during the battle on crait too because Luke calls him a kid,


it's almost like adults tend to refer to people half their age as kids. People have by far the strangest reading of dialogue when it comes to the last two films like, rational thought at zero. Like I know we got three movies full of terrible stilted dialogue so bad that literally every line is meme status but good grief. :|
 

phanphare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,866
Luke whining about the sacred Jedi texts was the kind of nostalgia I needed but didn't know I needed

totally agree, Luke in The Last Jedi was pitch fucking perfect
 

SG-17

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,747
Nah dude, this is an extremely cynical reading of the character in order to justify TLJ's bullshittery and character assassination.

TLJ portrayed Luke as a coward and a quitter who was willing to abandon his friends and family. That's utter bullshit.
 

Haloid1177

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,498
Glover’s performance as Lando was weird and dude had an accent and lost an accent at will. It wasn’t great.
 

Contramann

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,668
It might make sense to you but it does not to me. The character of Luke from the OT was a hopeful and positive one by the end of RotJ. He strived to see the best in people, not the worst, and the Luke from RotJ would not have tried to kill the son of Han and Leia in his sleep.
We have no idea he if actually strove to see the best in people because he spent RotJ only trying to redeem Vader and the only reason he was doing that was because he could, and I quote, "sense the good in Vader." Bearing in mind Vader at that point was responsible for a ton of horrific War Crimes in addition to the horrible things he was still trying to do (like help create another Planet Destroying Weapon) and it only took Luke to just "sense" the good to suddenly have his mind made up on Vader.

So what did he sense about his Nephew?


well that certainly wasn't the good in him.

Not in my opinion at least, and not in Mark's opinion either I might add.
If Hamil has some fanfiction then you go read that, but Hamil's opinion should hold so much weight. That should also be especially true when he's been so dodgy on what he's actually trying to say and everyone only takes 1 or two words of what he does say.

And again, if we wrote movies based on what actors wanted, Han Solo would have died in Return of the Jedi.
 
Last edited:

Hagi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,248
Ben was around 23 when he left Luke for dead and destroyed the temple. Child he was not.

Bloodlines was set 6 years before TFA and he was still training with Luke then.
 

Bragg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,546
Arkansas
You know people change in 30 years? How do you know what Luke would or wouldn’t do? I get shocked daily how many good people I grew up with turn out to be garbage later on in life. One of my best friends growing up is serving life for shooting someone in the head. When I was told, I didn’t believe it. People change.
So is he the same or is he different?

To me it makes more sense that Luke would be even more in control of his emotions in his old age but still have his belief in the good in people since he’s seen it first hand in the most vile person.

But what I’m supposed to believe is that Luke is still struggling with his emotions from his youth but has lost his belief in people.

It’s not an easy sell.
 

Kadey

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,524
Southeastern PA
Luke is supposed to be like Kenshin's master. OP and behind the scenes and rarely used because of how badass he is. When he does show up, asses will be whupped. Instead we get the wack chicken wuss Uncle who runs away from his problems and let's the whole Galaxy go to crap until it takes 99% of the republic to die before he finally decides to do something. Luke didn't die in TLJ, he teleported away to another planet to cry some more.
 

Astandahl

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,121
By the way i didn't "feel" anything when Luke killed himself to "save" Rey and the others. Again another out of place scene.

Darth Vader killing himself to save his son was much much more powerful. The pay off was amazing and fully earned.
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,420
Plus the movie kind wants it both ways. The reason Luke is off in exile and depressed and cut off from the force is because of his guilt in playing a part in pushing Ben to the dark. But then it also wants you to buy that Ben was bad from day one so its not really Luke's fault.
I don't think so. Luke is responsible and he tells Ben he failed him and he's sorry.

Ben hadn’t yet acted upon his dark thoughts. If Luke hadn’t pushed him over the edge, it is possible that he never would have. The battle over Ben was between Snoke in one corner and Luke, Han, and Leia in the other.

Rey correctly points out to Luke that he made the choice for Ben, when Ben had, in fact, done nothing yet. (whether you accept Luke would need to learn this lesson is another story).

There is no doubt that the scene in the hut occurred before Ben’s betrayal, so it is then also true that that event was the actual fork in the road for Ben. Regardless of whether or not Ben's betrayal and and burning would have happened, Luke igniting the saber DID happen.

So connecting the two events creates a fait accompli in a deterministic way, and further proves Ben’s “damnation”, as opposed to creating sympathy for him, the fact that the first of those occurrences (Luke ignition) was predicated on a latter occurrence that hadn’t even yet happened (but had been insinuated to Luke via visions) creates a big problem for Luke, and I believe was definitely intended by the writers.

That problem concerns free will versus determinism. A classic conundrum. Yoda says “difficult to see the future is”, “always in motion." Rey redirects those truths to Luke and to Ben. Luke made a huge error, fell into the trap laid by Snoke. He's responsible.
 
Last edited: