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Qikz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,559
This thread is filled with too much passive anti semitism and Nazi comperesens from people who don't have a single clue about what's going on. I think it's important to bring context to this story.

The story of Sheikh Jarrah is extremely complicated and involves the extreme of the extremes of the Israeli right wing, the worse kind of people like Itamar Ben Gvir. But this saga didn't started with Palestinians driven from their homes, it started with Jews driven from their home. 150 years ago when Sheikh Jarrah just formed, just a few years later, right next to it, a Jewish neighborhood was formed by some near by Jewish Kollels looking to have Jewish presents next to Tomb of Simeon, that neighborhood was called Nachalat Shimon. To be clear, this Kollels that built Nahalat Shimon aren't the extremists that own it now.

In 1947, during the 1947-8 war, the British kicked out all 100 Jewish families living in Nahalat Shimon. When the 1947-8 war was over, the the new owner of East Jerusalem, Sheikh Jarrah, and Nahalat Shimon was Jorden which seized control over the now empty Jewish homes. The Jordenin rented these Jewish homes to Palestinian refugee from the 1947-8 war for 1 dinar per month and all the Palestinian families leaving in these houses today are still in that status, renting their homes by paying 1 dinar a month to Jorden. To be clear, it's just these houses on an area of 4 acres, all of Sheikh Jarrah and the rest of Nahalat Shimon have nothing to do with this story.

In 1967, after the six day war, Israel had conquered East Jerusalem from the Jordanians and in it Sheikh Jarrah and Nahalat Shimon. At that point there are zero Jews in these neighborhoods, they were cleansed by Palestinian violence and the British in 1947. Then, in 2003, the owners of these 4 acres of land and homes, the original Kollels that bought the land and built Nahalat Shimon, sold the land and houses to a company from Delaware USA (it's from Delaware because in that state the source of funds can remain hidden. It's probably funded by right wing American Jews or Evangelicals, or both) which gave the land to right wing extremist organization.

Today, these houses and land are owned by right wing extremists, but the Palestinians living there are protected by Israeli tenant protection laws, they are still paying 1 dinar to Jorden for the house lease. So the right extremist take their time and slowelly, using legal detective work, waiting for one of the house tenants to make lease-breaking move (not paying the 1 dinar for a few years, building an illegal extension to the house, etc.), nullifying the contract. Then, using a lawsuit, evicting them from the house. That's why you see the Sheikh Jarrah story going on for almost 20 years, the right wing extremists are playing the long game. They already own the land and homes, and using the court they are evicting the houses one by one once a tenant fucks up somehow.

I realise you're sitting there saying this started 150 years ago, but do you not understand how utterly stupid it is that people are using something that happened 150 years ago to justify doing something that's happening today? There isn't even a human alive who remembers that happening at this point. Israel by basing all of their hate on revenge is insanity. Revenge just breeds more hate on both sides of the border.

People will say including my family who are from Israel (step family) will sit and say that the reason Israel strikes back is because the Palestinians always strike first. They completely ignore why the Palestinians are fighting back against the oppression in the first place and why they feel the need to lash out. They've tried everything else and it all failed. My family also say that Palestinians are terrorists who are being controlled/manipulated by Hamas, but then they ignore why Hamas even got the point it could take over in the first place. When people see their families killed and their homes demolished by an invading force who seems hellbent on the utter destruction of their entire people they will become radicalised, especially when every peaceful option that was tried all fails.

It's also incredibly hypocritical. Israel as a state only exists now because of Zionist terrorism in the British Mandate for Palestine. The British Government fucked up dealing with everything so bad that rather than fix the issue they gave into terrorism and then together with the US put together the literal worst plan I've ever seen for setting up a new country. From there isn't been nothing but wars on and off with one side clearly being the major power who is never under any major threat from the other side and one side that just gets stomped on over and over again just for trying to fight for their freedom.

I don't think there'll ever be peace in the region and that pains me to say, but the constant cycle of revenge seems never-ending.
 

hamghost

Member
Sep 1, 2019
271
I'm honestly shocked to see somebody attempting to both-sides ethnic cleansing - probably the worst thing I've seen in my time here.
 

Buzzth

Member
Jan 15, 2018
732
Japan
As a Palestinian, it's truly a pity that I see more support being voiced on a gaming enthusiast forum than my own friends and acquaintances on social media. Many of those who consider themselves 'woke' have been astonishingly silent on this matter and that even goes for many of Arab origin.

Unfortunately, the move to legitimize relations between a few of the gulf states seems to have further negated criticism of Israel in the region. I can only see things get worse from here onwards. I'd love to be wrong, but like many of you have already mentioned, this is an issue that has gone been largely ignored for so long that I don't see a chance of recovery.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,095
Imagine having had the hindsight of the genocide in the americas, the Jim crow South and apartheid South Africa and still choosing to use the legal argument to justify ethnic cleansing.
 

Jeb

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Mar 14, 2018
2,170
You see, attacking worshipers while they're praying is a very complex subject.
 

Aliand

Member
Oct 28, 2017
893
Just listened to the French news. It is presented as clashes due to Israel celebrating their take over of East Jerusalem. No mention of the families evicted or why these people are acting that way. Nothing unexpected to be honest. Not too sure if it's because of fear for retaliation or because they're accomplices of the whole process.
 

Fezan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,274
Really sad to see this happening and it not being covered more by mainstream media. The issue of Palestine and Kashmir just shows that the world doesn't care much about human rights violations unless it is happening in the west.

Also, many of my friends posted videos on Instagram and Facebook got deleted and this is not the first time
 

Deleted member 2840

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,400
The moment you try to criticize Israel you're called anti-Semitic. People have to walk on eggshells when talking about this shitty fucking fascist state
So apparently that happened here as well, of course. At least he got banned but what a shitty fucking thing to do, to use a horrible, traumatizing event in history like the Holocaust as a "shield" for any kind of criticism of their fascist government.
 

jeelybeans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,948
Really sad to see this happening and it not being covered more by mainstream media. The issue of Palestine and Kashmir just shows that the world doesn't care much about human rights violations unless it is happening in the west.

Also, many of my friends posted videos on Instagram and Facebook got deleted and this is not the first time

Israel has a cyber unit that very aggressively reports this stuff.

"but it's complicated". Sounds totally like something someone not guilty of war crimes would be paying to do...
 

Keru_Shiri

Member
Oct 26, 2017
121
It's telling that the first and only staff communication is to tone-police people criticizing a genocidal apartheid state. Shows where the priorities are.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,387
I just want to say that these legal and historical complexities around the conflict are used to obfuscate the very simple end goal of Israel's government, which is ethnic cleansing. The "complexities" are simply a complex justification for deliberate bigotry driven cruelty. While the tensions that precede such actions might be complex, the rest really isn't.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
I for one appreciated the context on the situation even if it remains indefensible. Knowing the history and legal claims of the oppressor is important.
???

Are you talking about the banned user's "context"? He forgot to mention quite a few important things. Jordan resettled the refugees legally under UN guidelines between 1948 and 1954. The families have been living there since. Israel illegally occupied East Jerusalem in 1967 war, and their claim over East Jerusalem and West Bank is NOT recognized, ostensibly, even by USA. The settler colonization is illegal under international law. The theory he provides that boils down to "Sephardic Jews in 18th century left their homes, but now are reclaiming it back after 150 years because it belongs to them" is woefully inaccurate and removes the important legal and social context. Under international law (including America's foreign stance), Israel has ZERO claim to East Jerusalem. The claim of the state of Israel are the 1949 Armistice Lines (Green Line), which is recognized by international law, and this excludes East Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The only way you can justify the banned user's post is if you ignore everything and pretend Israel owns the entire land.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,275
NYT's alert about the rockets shot today at Jerusalem mentions a "sudden crescendo of violence". I'm certainly not gonna celebrate civilians seeing rockets falling on them, I find it abhorrent, but this is absolutely a predictable continuation of the cycle of violence initiated here, and is yet another reason to not start these kinds of cycles.

It's not coming out of nowhere, thank you NYT.

edit : the article is actually worse :
In a sudden crescendo of violence on Monday evening, militants in Gaza fired rockets toward Jerusalem after a police raid that morning on the Aqsa Mosque, one of Islam's holiest sites, left hundreds of Palestinians and a score of police officers wounded, capping weeks of unrest in the city.
 
Last edited:

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
NYT's alert about the rockets shot today at Jerusalem mentions a "sudden crescendo of violence". I'm certainly not gonna celebrate civilians seeing rockets falling on them, I find it abhorrent, but this is absolutely a predictable continuation of the cycle of violence initiated here, and is yet another reason to not start these kinds of cycles.

It's not coming out of nowhere, thank you NYT.
Also, the IDF attacked Gaza today and killed Palestinians there (including 3 children), but the NYT only report on Palestinian rockets that killed no one.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,870
NYT's alert about the rockets shot today at Jerusalem mentions a "sudden crescendo of violence". I'm certainly not gonna celebrate civilians seeing rockets falling on them, I find it abhorrent, but this is absolutely a predictable continuation of the cycle of violence initiated here, and is yet another reason to not start these kinds of cycles.

It's not coming out of nowhere, thank you NYT.

edit : the article is actually worse :
Someone mentioned there's some similarities with how BLM protests are covered and this matter.

It's always "two oppositional forces clashing" to make some sort of faux balanced narrative.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,785
???

Are you talking about the banned user's "context"? He forgot to mention quite a few important things. Jordan resettled the refugees legally under UN guidelines between 1948 and 1954. The families have been living there since. Israel illegally occupied East Jerusalem in 1967 war, and their claim over East Jerusalem and West Bank is NOT recognized, ostensibly, even by USA. The settler colonization is illegal under international law. The theory he provides that boils down to "Sephardic Jews in 18th century left their homes, but now are reclaiming it back after 150 years because it belongs to them" is woefully inaccurate and removes the important legal and social context. Under international law (including America's foreign stance), Israel has ZERO claim to East Jerusalem. The claim of the state of Israel are the 1949 Armistice Lines (Green Line), which is recognized by international law, and this excludes East Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The only way you can justify the banned user's post is if you ignore everything and pretend Israel owns the entire land.
This is all also good to understand so thank you. I think he made the point that the legal position taken by Israel is unfounded (at least that's how I read it), but understanding their stance is still important, even if only to be able to better counter it factually.

Saying something is complicated is not a defense. It's clearly a complicated issue and talking about it without understanding the bogus underpinnings makes it harder to fight against.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,275
Also, the IDF attacked Gaza today and killed Palestinians there (including 3 children), but the NYT only report on Palestinian rockets that killed no one.
It goes to show how effective their framing is, as I felt the need to take every precaution regarding one case (because I genuinely don't want to celebrate civilian killings, even inadvertently) while completely ignoring the case where people were killed. And I'm someone who does care about the Palestinian cause and what's going on.

So the average American who could give two shits about it will come away thinking how hard it must be to share a land with Palestinians. Rinse and repeat for decades and here we are.
 

m_shortpants

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,412
You will soon see the "Israel has the right for self defense" headlines from US politicians and government officials.

Like clockwork.
 

Raftina

Member
Jun 27, 2020
3,713
You will soon see the "Israel has the right for self defense" headlines from US politicians and government officials.
"Soon" seems to be about 10 minutes: https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news...acks-launched-from-gaza-towards-israel-667782

The United States condemns in the strongest terms the barrage of rocket attacks fired into Israel in recent hours, said Ned Price, the State Department Spokesperson. "This is an unacceptable escalation," he said.

"While we urge de-escalation on all sides, we also recognize Israel's legitimate right to defend itself, to defend its people and its territory," Price added.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
GracefulEvilBlackandtancoonhound-size_restricted.gif
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
Israel committing literal ethnic cleansing
USA: I sleep
Gaza shoots 3, non injury rockets one of which falls in desert
USA: CONDEMNATION OF THE HIGHEST ORDER ISRAEL HAS RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF
I vividly remember the first time I saw this in action. It was during the 2009 Gaza conflicts when the death toll on each side was something absurd like 1400 vs 10 but those handful of casualties got live video coverage from American news while the hundreds of dead Palestinians were basically just a number on screen. This all just feels like deja vu now because obviously nothing is going to change.
 

carlosrso

Member
Oct 27, 2017
828
Ipatinga, Brazil
I'm completely ignorant in this subject. Why doesn't Israel just annex the whole area and grant everybody human rights. I'm sure that if you have a full democracy with everybody having the same rights, voting in the same elections, it might work better than the current situation.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,667
Tel Aviv
Bibi mentioned "this violent conflict can take some time" today - Well no shit you fucking war criminal, who is the only person in the entire fucking world who would want this thing to go on I wonder???
 

Consensual

Member
Oct 25, 2017
863
Weird how Israel is the only one that has the right to defend itself, and not the Palestinians being murdered by the army, being forced from their own homes, and being attacked whilst in the highly instigating act of... Peacefully praying in a mosque.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I'm completely ignorant in this subject. Why doesn't Israel just annex the whole area and grant everybody human rights. I'm sure that if you have a full democracy with everybody having the same rights, voting in the same elections, it might work better than the current situation.
That would mean granting people rights and that isn't something the government and their supporters want. They would rather continue on like this and take over anyway.
 

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
Literally lost a friend over this. But not what you'd expect.

I've made my disgust for the Israeli government and policies clear. But I was awakened today to someone sharing a days old tweet to harrass me for being Jewish and making a bizarre implication that all Israelis and jews (they constantly make no distinction) are responsible for this.

I'm just so tired. I fight, support and advocate for those that are fighting oppression and occupation, notably the Palestinian people. It just hurts when Im attacked for something I didn't do.

I'm clearly not the major victim here, those that lost their lives and have been injured are (I'm safe in California) but this conflict just sucks and I hate it. Why can't we all just eat hummus and felafel together?
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,667
Tel Aviv
Weird how Israel is the only one that has the right to defend itself, and not the Palestinians being murdered by the army, being forced from their own homes, and being attacked whilst in the highly instigating act of... Peacefully praying in a mosque.
I mean, this is one of those "where do I even start" posts.
Let's start with the practicality, since we all know the morality is not something the Israeli government cares about when it comes to annexing stuff -Most of the Israeli public doesn't want to annex these lands, for various reasons: some, because they understand that will kill any chance of a two-state solutions. Some, because they don't want to give Palestinians any rights but also they want to pretend to be democratic or whatever. Then, you also have the Palestinians residents - Many of them don't want to live as Israeli citizens, even if they could vote, and annexing a whole bunch of people who don't want to is generally not a good idea.
Whatever the solution will be - It can't be done through "Israel annexes X". since the immediate result would probably be one hell of a civil war.
 

carlosrso

Member
Oct 27, 2017
828
Ipatinga, Brazil
I think the arguments pro and against are valid, but if it is made as a compromise between the two parties, even with some kind of division "a la" Yugoslavia under Tito (rotating presidency, self governing states) I think it would work well. Specially because it is impossible for Palestine to be fully independent now, as it is a kind of bantustan due to Israeli ocupation and settlements, an also due to the western support of Israeli state.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,095
I'm completely ignorant in this subject. Why doesn't Israel just annex the whole area and grant everybody human rights. I'm sure that if you have a full democracy with everybody having the same rights, voting in the same elections, it might work better than the current situation.
Last time this was suggested on this forum as being better than the completely impossible 2 state solution you had banned boy bringing up national character and basically saying Palestinians are incompatible with a democratic Israeli state that has to stay Jewish lest it loses its soul.
And that was the least bad shit that was spouted.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,667
Tel Aviv
A one state solution would be ideal, sadly it's currently impossible. It might happen as some sort of federated state of Israel and Palestine - but a single unitary state is simply science fiction and wishful thinking right now :\
If the popular opinion in Israel and Palestine change, it might be possible, but I feel like this is the sort of change that would require at least one whole generation if not two.