Separating Games from their Creators - Kingdom Come: Deliverance

hydrophilic attack · Feb 7, 2018

Reckheim said:
post# 570.

Edit: I come from a country where the word carries a lot of weight and I have an issue with the west normalizing the word. You can't call every right leaning person a Nazi cause at that point its loosing its meaning.

ok that's unfortunate, because i agree that we don't have enough evidence to use the word "nazi", as that is a very specific ideology

i do think we have enough to heavily suspect him to be a white supremacist, but that is not exactly the same as nazi

downplaying it as simply being right-leaning, as you are doing here, is not right either

kliklik · Feb 7, 2018

Unclebenny said:
You are mis- reading the overall thrust of my post. I agree, he is completely within his rights to have no ethnic minorities in his game, especially as he is said it focused over a small area covering a few towns and villages.

The problem comes not from that but from his insistence that he is did not include them because they were never there.

What he said is: "The people of Bohemia were certainly also aware that there are people of other skin color or descent, not least thanks to the representation of biblical persons or other works of art, however, it is more than doubtful that under their normal living conditions in rural areas, in the KCD is authoritative, ever had direct contact."

It's also a question of how much documentation is there. If they can find a lot of documentation, even for small Jewish communities and Italian individuals at the time, then the lack of any documentation for a black community being in that location is more convincingly ascribed to there not being any. If there isn't much documentation you can find at all, then maybe the reason there is a lack of evidence of a black community being there is because they weren't very good at recording things.

It seems to me that saying it's "doubtful [they] ever had direct contact" and even asserting there was no black community or individuals in that specific small inland region during that specific timeframe is couched enough in conditions that it seems reasonable.

Unclebenny said:
http://robertwguthrie.com/whats-rac...n-historical-accuracy-is-used-to-deny-agency/

This article was brought up before and I've already read it. This concluding statement from it:
"What's easier to argue against is the idea that Bohemia was exclusively white. The Kingdom of Bohemia lay on several important trade routes and within spitting distance of the Kipchak Khanate, Constantinople, Venice, and the burgeoning Ottoman Empire. While not likely a significant population, Bohemia no doubt saw a fair number of foreign mercenaries of Turkish, Mongol, Cuman, Tatar, or Arab descent, especially during the troublesome 15th century."

There actually are Turkish and Cuman people in the game, though it seems the article is suggesting there aren't. So if the writer considers these to not be white peoples, then the game already includes non-white populations.

Unclebenny said:
If he didn't have a history of associating with obviously racist outlets and people then that would be suspicious at best. However he has been a vocal supporter of gamergate and given an interview to breitbart. So while I don't have a major problem with this articular game having no people of colour, we need to acknowledge that this man may not have the best of intentions when it comes to diversity.

Or... he found their rhetoric seductive because he's frustrated with people hyperbolically criticising a lack of representation in games where it might justifiably not make sense to have such representation. A lot of people slid into that movement and got pulled in deep because of a frustration with "PCness" and "slacktivism". I guess it's a question of what you think came first.

Unclebenny said:
His rhetoric spreads the idea that the only reason people of colour are in historical European fiction is for forced diversity quotas, as opposed to the world actually being much more diverse than is traditionally portrayed in media. this feeds back into the undercurrent of racism I mentioned in my first post. The idea of national purity and it's dilution by recent arrivals.

I don't think it's fair to blame him for all that when he explicitly acknowledges the presence of PoCs in other parts of Europe or at other time periods. He is specifically talking about 8 km^2 of inland Bohemia in 1403. Stating they weren't present in that specific location at that specific time and it's doubtful the people there had direct contact with PoCs is not tantamount to spreading the idea that PoCs are only in historical ficton due to diversity quotas.

Kaxi · Feb 7, 2018

BernardoOne said:
I'm not sure how is loosely defined to call someone that literally follows, likes and retweets every alt-right personality in existence and actively follows extremenfar-right news sources to be, ya know, alt right.
What do y'all need for someone to be called alt-right? A photo of him burning a cross in someone's yard while wearing a swastika, saying "I do declare here to be very racist" while waving around a KKK member card?

The term itself is loosely-defined for me. And unless we know what it means exactly, it's hard to determine if the people he follows are actually that? Even your post is a proof it's a loose term, since you use alt-right and far-right interchangeably. So are these two the same? Alt-right can be far-right, but is far-right always alt-right? I never cared to dig deeper into it because the term is mostly used in USA and UK politics, not so much here in Poland. What complicates the communication even more is that different nations have different ideas what is typically right or left-wing.

It's not exactly clear to me what you have to be like to be called here a right-wing person, but not an alt-right.

Reckheim · Feb 7, 2018

hydrophilic attack said:
ok that's unfortunate, because i agree that we don't have enough evidence to use the word "nazi", as that is a very specific ideology

i do think we have enough to heavily suspect him to be a white supremacist, but that is not exactly the same as nazi

downplaying it as simply being right-leaning, as you are doing here, is not right either

He is definitely alt-right in some regards (although not white-supremacist [imo]) , wasn't talking specifically about him. Just a trend I noticed.

Cranston · Feb 7, 2018

Reckheim said:
I come from a country where the word carries a lot of weight and I have an issue with the west normalizing the word. You can't call every right leaning person a Nazi cause at that point its loosing its meaning.

Hear hear.

My wife's family share the story of the twentieth Century. A family of nearly twenty, they lived in the centre of Magdeburg where they operated a co-operative bank. Following Kristallnacht (look it up for those that don't know), they were stripped of their work. My wife's grandfather managed to arrange payment for two to escape Germany. The rest were deported to Auschwitz (none survived but we have their records) or Treblinka (we can only assume as there are no records). I don't think people who use the term nazi so willingly have even the slightest molecular clue about the depths of human horror and suffering that were endured; the racial eugenics, the death camps, the progroms, the sadistic and ritual slaughter of millions of individuals. Of the two that managed to escape, only one lived a full life. The brother hung himself in a flat in North London.

We're forgetting. Actually, more worryingly, there are many that will never even know. And every time we use a term like 'Nazi' so loosely, we chip away a little more.

Deleted member 1759 · Feb 7, 2018

Probably gonna get the game knowing Vavra's views. Why? Because I love the idea of a non-fantasy medieval RPG and I just want to play it. Will wait for reviews/impressions, though.

How can I live with myself? By being an active member of the Young Socialists (giving talks, information stands, etc.), taking part in anti-nazi demonstrations and doing other stuff like this IRL. I think that outweighs boycotting a video game because of one guy (even when he's head of the studio). I've actuallly talked to some of my fellow party members about this and the response was kinda mixed; some agreed with me, some didn't. And I can understand why some people will/would boycott the game. I even feel a bit like a hypocrite typing this but when it comes to video games, I tend to ignore stuff I otherwise wouldn't.

Menx64 · Feb 7, 2018

I try to avoid products from people of companies that have bad environmental or human practices, but then I realize I have to avoid a good chuck of everything. I dont shop in amazon anymore for example. But, I bought a phone recently (I lost mine), so I hope those responsibility documents are true Huawei!! Nintendo was known for not providing info, but they claim they dont use conflicting minerals, so I hope they are actually enforcing that on their vendors.
Dragon quest is an interesting game, since I grew up playing those games and I love them, but then they have a war denier as their music guy... It is difficult to think I will enjoy DQ11 to the fullest knowing that guy is involved in the game. Apologizing and owning your mistakes can make a big difference.
Again, this is my personal take.

Rosenkrantz · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
There actually are Turkish and Cuman people in the game, though it seems the article is suggesting there aren't

To be fair, the article was written in 2015 and the author probably had no knowledge if there going to be any ethnic minorities in the game. Regardless, it's a piss poor criticism from the historical point of view (I mean, author gives links to Wikipedia for pete's sake) that ends on a strange "Vavra is neither right nor wrong" note.

hydrophilic attack · Feb 7, 2018

Kaxi said:
The term itself is loosely-defined for me. And unless we know what it means exactly, it's hard to determine if the people he follows are actually that? Even your post is a proof it's a loose term, since you use alt-right and far-right interchangeably. So are these two the same? Alt-right can be far-right, but is far-right always alt-right? I never cared to dig deeper into it because the term is mostly used in USA and UK politics, not so much here in Poland. What complicates the communication even more is that different nations have different ideas what is typically right or left-wing.

It's not exactly clear to me what you have to be like to be called here a right-wing person, but not an alt-right.

I would say that the alt-right is a subset of the far-right movement. Everyone who is alt-right is far-right but not necessarily the other way around. The alt-right's defining features is its methods. They deliberately try to muddy the water and by disingenuous arguments, sock-puppet campaigns and other insidious methods provide themselves plausible deniability. By hiding under the guise of trolling, they disingenuously try to push the orverton window further right and comfortably into far-right territory. They are loosely defined, yes, and that is by design, while other non-alt-right far-right organizations, like the party currently in power in Poland, are more explicitly far right

Sloane Ranger · Feb 7, 2018

Clix said:
At the end of the day, what makes me uncomfortable about all this, is that this is not an American game.

Everybody knows people of other cultures interacted with other cultures due to trade, slavery or other reasons. It does not mean it was a multiracial society as we see in the Americas. There is a difference between displaying a true multiracial society, like American society, but to say that other societies were multiracial because traders would come in is not on the same level.

But this is a game coming from people telling a story about themselves.

And I am not saying everyone, but I can bet your ass that if a developer from an Asian country, a middle eastern country, etc, made a game about themselves set in their history and they did not include people from Europe (who also went to many of those areas for trade and would be found in a merchant coastal area especially) most people here would not bat an eyelash.

This is what is making me uncomfortable.

The developers have every right, especially slavs who have been historically looked down upon by the rest of Europe and still to this day, to make their own game about themselves, their history, their folklore, their whatever.

At the end of the day, it makes me uncomfortable to see someone like Gies, hammering foreign developers making games about their own cultures to make their games inclusive with outside cultures.

Couldn't agree more. Perspective is important here.

kliklik · Feb 7, 2018

hydrophilic attack said:
could you please provide evidence of anyone here literally calling him a nazi

thanks

Kaxi said:
The term itself is loosely-defined for me. And unless we know what it means exactly, it's hard to determine if the people he follows are actually that? Even your post is a proof it's a loose term, since you use alt-right and far-right interchangeably. So are these two the same? Alt-right can be far-right, but is far-right always alt-right? I never cared to dig deeper into it because the term is mostly used in USA and UK politics, not so much here in Poland. What complicates the communication even more is that different nations have different ideas what is typically right or left-wing.

It's not exactly clear to me what you have to be like to be called here a right-wing person, but not an alt-right.

You're right they're not the same. I made a wall-o-text post in the other thread explaining the difference in response to a question about that.

Rosenkrantz said:
To be fair, the article was written in 2015 and the author probably had no knowledge if there going to be any ethnic minorities in the game. Regardless, it's a piss poor criticism from the historical point of view (I mean, author gives links to Wikipedia for pete's sake) that ends on a strange "Vavra is neither right nor wrong" note.

You're right. I guess it's more that this article is still being put forward as an argument now, when we do already know that ethnic minorities acknowledged by the author as non-white will be in the game. (Also, some of the links are dead, like the one about there being precedent for female warriors, which I was actually interested in.)

Lime · Feb 7, 2018

Medievalpoc is currently getting harassed by the gamer bigots once again because of the story resurfacing

hydrophilic attack · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
Nazi:
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4257048/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4259164/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4258795/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4257982/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4255043/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4243618/

https://www.resetera.com/posts/4255869/

Neo-nazi:
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4266571/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4246032/

only one of these explicitly calls Vavra a nazi (and I already acknowledged that because someone else already pointed that post out). Others say that he has nazi viewpoints, i.e. shares some ideas with nazis and that people he follows are nazis. Neither of these are examples of people calling Vavra a nazi.

Deleted member 11995 · Feb 7, 2018

Cranston said:
Hear hear.

My wife's family share the story of the twentieth Century. A family of nearly twenty, they lived in the centre of Magdeburg where they operated a co-operative bank. Following Kristallnacht (look it up for those that don't know), they were stripped of their work. My wife's grandfather managed to arrange payment for two to escape Germany. The rest were deported to Auschwitz (none survived but we have their records) or Treblinka (we can only assume as there are no records). I don't think people who use the term nazi so willingly have even the slightest molecular clue about the depths of human horror and suffering that were endured; the racial eugenics, the death camps, the progroms, the sadistic and ritual slaughter of millions of individuals. Of the two that managed to escape, only one lived a full life. The brother hung himself in a flat in North London.

We're forgetting. Actually, more worryingly, there are many that will never even know. And every time we use a term like 'Nazi' so loosely, we chip away a little more.

I have to ask, from your perspective, surely you would agree that we should come down hard on fuckboys like Vavra?

I mean, you've saw the shit he's all over on social media, right? We should at least try and put a stop to these vile ideologies before they take root and spread, again.

Imagine those horrors from history repeating, again. We've got to speak out against people, even if they just flirt with that shit, right?

flyinj · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
Sure no problem.

Nazi:
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4257048/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4259164/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4258795/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4257982/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4255043/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4243618/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4255869/

Neo-nazi:
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4266571/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4246032/

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for people to back up their claims that he is a white supremacist, nazi, racist, and sexist. It's been pages and I'm still waiting. Do you understand my concern now?

You're right they're not the same. I made a wall-o-text post in the other thread explaining the difference in response to a question about that.

You're right. I guess it's more that this article is still being put forward as an argument now, when we do already know that ethnic minorities acknowledged by the author as non-white will be in the game. (Also, some of the links are dead, like the one about there being precedent for female warriors, which I was actually interested in.)

He tweets the Kekistan flag and other pepe/Kekistan memes

That is a white supremacist flag modeled off of a Nazi flag

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch...symbols-used-far-right-groups-charlottesville

Reckheim · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for people to back up their claims that he is a white supremacist, nazi, racist, and sexist. It's been pages and I'm still waiting. Do you understand my concern now?

honestly, I don't think you'll be getting an answer to this.

nillansan · Feb 7, 2018

Lime said:
Medievalpoc is currently getting harassed by the gamer bigots once again because of the story resurfacing

And we have capital G Gamers in here bending over backwards to defend someone who is openly associating with a harassment campaign and signal boosting far right movements.

Unclebenny · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
Or... he found their rhetoric seductive because he's frustrated with people hyperbolically criticising a lack of representation in games where it might justifiably not make sense to have such representation. A lot of people slid into that movement and got pulled in deep because of a frustration with "PCness" and "slacktivism". I guess it's a question of what you think came first.

I don't think it's fair to blame him for all that when he explicitly acknowledges the presence of PoCs in other parts of Europe or at other time periods. He is specifically talking about 8 km^2 of inland Bohemia in 1403. Stating they weren't present in that specific location at that specific time and it's doubtful the people there had direct contact with PoCs is not tantamount to spreading the idea that PoCs are only in historical ficton due to diversity quotas.

I could get into the other points you raised but these are the most important. The fact you and others are willing to give this guy slack despite being obviously involved in the alt right community is disappointing at best, astounding at worst.

It is one thing to be annoyed by "PC-ness" but you can do that without being a vocal proponent of incredibly harmful rhetoric and ideas.

I am not suggesting he is at fault for all the right wing media he associates himself with but he adds to a perception that is incredibly negative to people of colour. To excuse him because he hasn't said a massive racial slur is ridiculous. If we can only identify racists by overt racist statements then it gives the racists a pretty powerful opportunity to hide themselves in plain view.

If you people want to buy the game, that's fine. Just let's not pretend that this guy is not involved in some problematic stuff and that there is a possibility it has slipped into the game he helped create.

CannonFodder52 · Feb 7, 2018

Reckheim said:
Edit: I come from a country where the word carries a lot of weight and I have an issue with the west normalizing the word. You can't call every right leaning person a Nazi cause at that point its loosing its meaning.

North American here, but I never heard anyone panic over the normalization of this word when feminists were being called Nazis & feminazis or when black radicals were called Nazis, or any other time this was frequently thrown around.
It seems only now, when white dudes with far right, often bordering on ethnocentric ideology are getting called Nazis that suddenly people are incredibly concerned with the use and history of the term.

Edit:
Over here, it just feels like since the recent US election and events like Charlottesville, there's been a huge moral panic over the use of the word Nazi, something that people have been throwing around for decades.

kliklik · Feb 7, 2018

hydrophilic attack said:
only one of these explicitly calls Vavra a nazi (and I already acknowledged that because someone else already pointed that post out). Others say that he has nazi viewpoints, i.e. shares some ideas with nazis and that people he follows are nazis. Neither of these are examples of people calling Vavra a nazi.

1- "nazi viewpoints"
2 - refers to him as a nazi
3 - "nazi viewpoints"
4 - "embrace nazi garbage"
5 - saying he turned out to be a nazi
6 - saying he is a nazi
7 - rebuttal of point saying we shouldn't equate Vavra to a Nazi with guilt-by-association attempts to show he's a nazi
8 - saying following neo-nazis is proof of him being a nazi
9 - saying following neo-nazis is proof of him being a nazi

What exactly are you looking for lol. And don't you think it's hyperbolic to say someone holds nazi viewpoints or even bandy about the term "nazi" when there is no point of him, yknow, actually holding nazi viewpoints? That's the problem.

BernardoOne · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
Sure no problem.

Nazi:
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4257048/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4259164/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4258795/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4257982/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4255043/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4243618/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4255869/

Neo-nazi:
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4266571/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/4246032/

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for people to back up their claims that he is a white supremacist, nazi, racist, and sexist. It's been pages and I'm still waiting. Do you understand my concern now?

You're right they're not the same. I made a wall-o-text post in the other thread explaining the difference in response to a question about that.

You're right. I guess it's more that this article is still being put forward as an argument now, when we do already know that ethnic minorities acknowledged by the author as non-white will be in the game. (Also, some of the links are dead, like the one about there being precedent for female warriors, which I was actually interested in.)

People have actually backed it up plenty, it's just you that seem to continuously ignore it and make up some really weird and high standards where no alt-right person can ever be considered alt-right in any way.

But sure, direct endorsement of gamergate totally doesn't make him a sexist at all no sir

I'll have you know I support them harassment campaigns because of all the

uNrElAtEd CoNtEnT

BernardoOne · Feb 7, 2018

Edit:duplicated post

Morrigan · Feb 7, 2018

Sarah The Great said:
This place really needs some European mods. Our cultures are all very different and they need to be represented so that moderation is more balanced and less US centric

I don't know why you're under the impression that we don't have European mods. We have mods from the US, Canada, Europe, Asia, Australia, South America... all over the world really.

As a member of the staff who is not American, I don't appreciate people spreading falsehoods about the staff.

vicisac said:
As long as he's not actually following racists hiring practices

Who knows. He endorses James Damore, who certainly does.

kliklik said:
And if pizzagate conspiracies were the worst thing that the alt-right believes, that would be a mercy. I'm looking for something a bit more intolerant and harmful than ignorant.

Pizzagate is harmless to you? Harassment and even a shooting is not "harmful"?

BernardoOne said:
What do y'all need for someone to be called alt-right? A photo of him burning a cross in someone's yard while wearing a swastika, saying "I do declare here to be very racist" while waving around a KKK member card?

I'm sure we'd find someone willing to handwave that too. "He's sarcastic, he's joking, he's just brainwashed and it's not his fault, he's not American and doesn't speak English well so it's not his fault".

kliklik said:
It's been pages and I'm still waiting.

You were shown evidence and just handwaved it over and over. Calling James Damore a hero and being a fan of Mike Cernovich and other MRA figures is not evidence of sexism. Supporting a harassment campaign targeting women is not evidence of sexism either, apparently. Endorsing Breitbart and Gavin McInnes, a white nationalist, is not evidence of racism. Endorsing Pizzagate and all the alt-right talking points, endorsing all of the most prominent alt-right figures, isn't evidence of being alt-right. Well, OK then.

Do you understand my concern now?

Honestly, I really don't.

nillansan · Feb 7, 2018

Sarah The Great said:
This place really needs some European mods. Our cultures are all very different and they need to be represented so that moderation is more balanced and less US centric

Yeah fuck off with this shit.

kliklik · Feb 7, 2018

Unclebenny said:
It is one thing to be annoyed by "PC-ness" but you can do that without being a vocal proponent of incredibly harmful rhetoric and ideas.

Which specifically are you referring to?

BernardoOne said:
People have actually backed it up plenty, it's just you that seem to continuously ignore it and make up some really weird and high standards where no alt-right person can ever be considered alt-right in any way.

But sure, direct endorsement of gamergate totally doesn't make him a sexist at all no sir

They literally did not back it up plenty. A number literally either refused to respond or responded by saying they wouldn't provide examples. It's not a high standard to ask for an example of him stating or promoting content that is itself openly racist or sexist (for example), rather than content about gun control or socialism that is written by people who might be racist or sexist.

flyinj said:
He tweets the Kekistan flag and other pepe/Kekistan memes

A pepe meme is not a nazi/sexist/racist viewpoint. I also do have difficulty understanding that it is white supremacist if there are non-whites in the picture? The article you linked states that it is used for trolling purposes. Again, I'm looking for viewpoints, not associations.

BernardoOne · Feb 7, 2018

Sarah The Great said:
This place really needs some European mods. Our cultures are all very different and they need to be represented so that moderation is more balanced and less US centric

This is an amazingly stupid post. As a European, I can tell you Vavra's bullshit is less accpeted, not more.

Banana Aeon · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
A pepe meme is not a nazi/sexist/racist viewpoint. I also do have difficulty understanding that it is white supremacist if there are non-whites in the picture? The article you linked states that it is used for trolling purposes. Again, I'm looking for viewpoints, not associations.

Boy, have I seen this used as a defense so many times.

hydrophilic attack · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
1- "nazi viewpoints"
2 - refers to him as a nazi
3 - "nazi viewpoints"
4 - "embrace nazi garbage"
5 - saying he turned out to be a nazi
6 - saying he is a nazi
7 - rebuttal of point saying we shouldn't equate Vavra to a Nazi with guilt-by-association attempts to show he's a nazi
8 - saying following neo-nazis is proof of him being a nazi
9 - saying following neo-nazis is proof of him being a nazi

Only #6 literally calls him a nazi (which is what I asked for) (and only with context from other posts in that quote chain is it clear that they were explicitly calling him a nazi and not asking a hypothetical question)

BernardoOne · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
Which specifically are you referring to?

They literally did not back it up plenty. A number literally either refused to respond or responded by saying they wouldn't provide examples. It's not a high standard to ask for an example of him stating or promoting content that is itself openly racist or sexist (for example), rather than content about gun control or socialism that is written by people who might be racist or sexist.

A pepe meme is not a nazi/sexist/racist viewpoint. I also do have difficulty understanding that it is white supremacist if there are non-whites in the picture? The article you linked states that it is used for trolling purposes. Again, I'm looking for viewpoints, not associations.

...him directly promoting gamergate isn't openly sexist content?
Like I said, you have some hilariously high standards that don't seem that will ever be fulfilled in any way.
Also good lord do some fucking research on what Kekistan is.
Not that I expect you to do any research or follow rational logic when you go "they have non white friends so they can't be white supremacists lulz"

Cranston · Feb 7, 2018

Steve.1981 said:
We've got to speak out against people, even if they just flirt with that shit, right?

The single most important point, reading about Nazism and how it took hold, was the total and utter dehumanisation of the Jewish people. When you listen to the testimony of German people who supported the Third Reich they always say the same thing 'Firstly, they didn't realise what was happening. Secondly, they had always been told that the Jews were to blame for everything. They lost them their land after World War One. They took all the positions in finance and law and all their jobs. They were to blame for the International Bolshevik conspiracy'. But it was wholly racial. That is the key distinction. They could never escape their fate, because it wasn't an idea they espoused. Rather, it was the core of who they were.

And when you no longer see someone as an equal human, that's when you can do whatever you want with them.

I honestly have no idea what to do and I'm the last person that should be giving advice (I focus on my own flaws) but I do know that Nazism is pure, distilled evil. You have to be awfully certain when you make that claim.

flyinj · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
Which specifically are you referring to?

They literally did not back it up plenty. A number literally either refused to respond or responded by saying they wouldn't provide examples. It's not a high standard to ask for an example of him stating or promoting content that is itself openly racist or sexist (for example), rather than content about gun control or socialism that is written by people who might be racist or sexist.

A pepe meme is not a nazi/sexist/racist viewpoint. I also do have difficulty understanding that it is white supremacist if there are non-whites in the picture? The article you linked states that it is used for trolling purposes. Again, I'm looking for viewpoints, not associations.

Wait, pepe memes are not racist? What are they then?

Dazraell · Feb 7, 2018

CannonFodder52 said:
North American here, but I never heard anyone panic over the normalization of this word when feminists were being called Nazis & feminazis or when black radicals were called Nazis, or any other time this was frequently thrown around.
It seems only now, when white dudes with far right, often bordering on ethnocentric ideology are getting called Nazis that suddenly people are incredibly concerned with the use and history of the term.

This is really disrespectful in every example. But here's the thing. Vavra lives in Central Europe in one of the countries that were forced to suffer through nazi occupation. There's a big probability that his father or grandfather was in concentraction camp and suffered nazi cruelty first hand. It's a big deal to use this term and it's probably hurtful not only to him, but his co-workers at Warhorse as well.

Unclebenny · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
Which specifically are you referring to?

They literally did not back it up plenty. A number literally either refused to respond or responded by saying they wouldn't provide examples. It's not a high standard to ask for an example of him stating or promoting content that is itself openly racist or sexist (for example), rather than content about gun control or socialism that is written by people who might be racist or sexist.

A pepe meme is not a nazi/sexist/racist viewpoint. I also do have difficulty understanding that it is white supremacist if there are non-whites in the picture? The article you linked states that it is used for trolling purposes. Again, I'm looking for viewpoints, not associations.

OK, this is going nowhere, what you want me to provide is him being an explicit awful racist. You know that doesn't exist.

If you are trying to argue that his retweeting of racist memes, associations with far right organisations, happily be interviewed by Brietbart, a well known nazi supporting organistion, is not in some way negative, you are not worth talking to.

Using your logic, I can appear on stage with the KKK but as long as I am talking about something not related to being a big old racist, then I am completely inculpable for anything that happens with them and I am somehow completely dissociated with their wider message.

If you want to support his ideas just come out and say it.

Banana Aeon · Feb 7, 2018

flyinj said:
Wait, pepe memes are not racist? What are they then?

"lol memes are just jokes man. learn to have a sense of humor snowflake"

I shouldn't have to put a /s but some of the posts in this thread...

flyinj · Feb 7, 2018

Dazraell said:
This is really disrespectful in every example. But here's the thing. Vavra lives in Central Europe in one of the countries that were forced to suffer through nazi occupation. There's a big probability that his father or grandfather was in concentraction camp and suffered nazi cruelty first hand. It's a big deal to use this term and it's probably hurtful not only to him, but his co-workers at Warhorse as well.

Then why in the hell would he tweet a flag that was based on a Nazi war flag? It seems like he would be absolutely disgusted by such a thing.

kliklik · Feb 7, 2018

Morrigan said:
Pizzagate is harmless to you? Harassment and even a shooting is not "harmful"?

Apparently liking a tweet about it isn't harmful – it's not an endorsement to shoot someone, just like me vehemently hating Trump and sometimes wishing he were dead is not an endorsement of political assassination.

Morrigan said:
You were shown evidence and just handwaved it over and over. Calling James Damore a hero and being a fan of Mike Cernovich and other MRA figures is not evidence of sexism. Supporting a harassment campaign targeting women is not evidence of sexism either, apparently. Endorsing Breitbart and Gavin McInnes, a white nationalist, is not evidence of racism. Endorsing Pizzagate and all the alt-right talking points, endorsing all of the most prominent alt-right figures, isn't evidence of being alt-right. Well, OK then.

Well let's be clear, he retweeted someone calling Damore a hero, rather than saying something himself. He's seen as a martyr by being fired over his 'politically incorrect' viewpoints. That doesn't mean Vavra shares those viewpoints, only clearly he thinks he shouldn't have been fired over them. Again this is guilt-by-association. Damore is the sexist one, but this isn't evidence of Vavra saying something sexist.

He didn't participate in any campaigns of harassment within the movement as far as I'm aware. If he actually attacked female devs like Notch later did, then I will revise my opinion. Again, this is guilt-by-association. It doesn't make them automatically sexist by supporting or associating with the movement.

You're saying his retweet of McInnes as pictured saying: "After ruining movies and comedy, PC has finally attacked the last bastion of American meritocracy: sports" is evidence of racism...

No sorry, I want to see an example of him actually stating or promoting something sexist, racist, white supremacist, or nazi. Not associations or insinuations. As I stated before condemning someone for "membership in, affiliation with or sympathetic association" with groups and people deemed to be subversive elements is a bit too Truman-McCarthy for me.

Banana Aeon · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
No sorry, I want to see an example of him actually stating or promoting something sexist, racist, white supremacist, or nazi. Not associations or insinuations. As I stated before condemning someone for "membership in, affiliation with or sympathetic association" with groups and people deemed to be subversive elements is a bit too Truman-McCarthy for me.

What's the point when all you'll do is handwave it? Seriously?

flyinj · Feb 7, 2018

So retweeting a known white supremacist flag that was literally waved in the tiki-torch Nazi marching line in Charlottesville is just a little harmless thing that should by no means be taken as an endorsement of it.

What?

dlauv · Feb 7, 2018

I'll just post what I posted in another thread about separating creator ideologies from product.

To me:

It depends on the severity of the ideology and whether or not the product conveys a disagreeable message.

Ultimately, the product is more important than the creator. You may be lining his/her pockets, but they're still the ones producing -- perhaps cynically -- a palatable enough message via a team effort to market on a large scale. The message is what carries on -- not the personal views of one member of authorship.

But, this is just a hard and fast rule. It has exceptions. Like, I can't watch the Cosby Show anymore. I loved that shit.

I'll probably pick up Kingdom Come if it gets good reviews. Vavra strikes me a nerdy white man from a country without diversity who may or may not be a different person having grown up in the United States. I think his views are benign to the United States, and to a larger degree, the game will be as well. I don't condone his attitude or hostility, but in technical terms, I don't see what's truly wrong with his stance on the game itself. It seems like people halfway around the world are bullying him to conform to an American perspective of diversity and he smugly believes himself to be in the right, backed up by a local historian, although it's more likely that the thought never occurred to him to include black people at all. Gamergators would rather double down with sarcasm and chaos than admit they were wrong, which is churlish and stupid, but not damningly indicative of what message the game will send.

sensui-tomo · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
Apparently liking a tweet about it isn't harmful – it's not an endorsement to shoot someone, just like me vehemently hating Trump and sometimes wishing he were dead is not an endorsement of political assassination.

Well let's be clear, he retweeted someone calling Damore a hero, rather than saying something himself. He's seen as a martyr by being fired over his 'politically incorrect' viewpoints. That doesn't mean Vavra shares those viewpoints, only clearly he thinks he shouldn't have been fired over them. Again this is guilt-by-association. Damore is the sexist one, but this isn't evidence of Vavra saying something sexist.

He didn't participate in any campaigns of harassment within the movement as far as I'm aware. If he actually attacked female devs like Notch later did, then I will revise my opinion. Again, this is guilt-by-association. It doesn't make them automatically sexist by supporting or associating with the movement.

You're saying his retweet of McInnes as pictured saying: "After ruining movies and comedy, PC has finally attacked the last bastion of American meritocracy: sports" is evidence of racism...

No sorry, I want to see an example of him actually stating or promoting something sexist, racist, white supremacist, or nazi. Not associations or insinuations. As I stated before condemning someone for "membership in, affiliation with or sympathetic association" with groups and people deemed to be subversive elements is a bit too Truman-McCarthy for me.

So in your belief, liking/retweeting a tweet means nothing? like if i said i liked/retweeted a tweet that said" Death to all black people" I then by no means(in your thought process) should be considered racist because i liked a tweet that said it just because i didnt say/type it myself? Am i reading this right?
On subject though, I can seperate the work from the creator as long as stuff doesnt bleed through, example of a shitty person's views bleeding into their shitty product Jeepers creepers.

Kudo · Feb 7, 2018

BernardoOne said:
This is an amazingly stupid post. As a European, I can tell you Vavra's bullshit is less accpeted, not more.

I don't think anyone is defending Vavra himself with those post, at least I hope.

Morrigan · Feb 7, 2018

kliklik said:
Apparently liking a tweet about it isn't harmful – it's not an endorsement to shoot someone, just like me vehemently hating Trump and sometimes wishing he were dead is not an endorsement of political assassination.

Well let's be clear, he retweeted someone calling Damore a hero, rather than saying something himself. He's seen as a martyr by being fired over his 'politically incorrect' viewpoints. That doesn't mean Vavra shares those viewpoints, only clearly he thinks he shouldn't have been fired over them. Again this is guilt-by-association. Damore is the sexist one, but this isn't evidence of Vavra saying something sexist.

He didn't participate in any campaigns of harassment within the movement as far as I'm aware. If he actually attacked female devs like Notch later did, then I will revise my opinion. Again, this is guilt-by-association. It doesn't make them automatically sexist by supporting or associating with the movement.

You're saying his retweet of McInnes as pictured saying: "After ruining movies and comedy, PC has finally attacked the last bastion of American meritocracy: sports" is evidence of racism...

No sorry, I want to see an example of him actually stating or promoting something sexist, racist, white supremacist, or nazi. Not associations or insinuations. As I stated before condemning someone for "membership in, affiliation with or sympathetic association" with groups and people deemed to be subversive elements is a bit too Truman-McCarthy for me.

I know you're banned now (wasn't me, for the record, but I can't say I disagree with it) but I want to respond to this.

What you are doing is constantly moving the goalposts. Like the pizzagate thing. You initially said you want something "more harmful than ignorant". I explain to you how harmful the pizzagate conspiracy theory has been. Now you say "liking a tweet isn't harmful". Same with Damore. If someone "likes", as in, endorses a tweet promoting a sexist person known and fired for his sexism, that is the same thing as being sexist yourself. I don't see how anyone could disagree with that. There is really no meaningful difference here, and your continued insistence of otherwise is so bizarre, it comes across as outright trolling. There isn't even the caveat here of "well, I don't like ___'s stance on X, but I agree with them on Y".

Handwaving that as "guilt by association" is fallacious because... well, this isn't what guilt by association means. "Guilt by association" as a fallacy doesn't include examples where the person is willingly and openly associating themselves with the "guilty group".

"Guilt by association" here might be a valid point with regards to Warhorse employees with regards to Vávra. Not with regards to Vávra choosing to associate himself with almost every alt-right figure out there.

Einherjer · Feb 7, 2018

Kitsunelaine said:
So you're okay with supporting the work of a nazi?

So this is acceptable behavior here but klikklik got banned? I honestly cant say i fully agree with any of those 2 but that are some double standards if i ever saw some...

sensui-tomo · Feb 7, 2018

tet666 said:
So this is acceptable behavior here but klikklik got banned? I honestly cant say i fully agree with any of those 2 but that are some double standards if i ever saw some...

its not like he's permabanned, hell its only for 3 days.

Unclebenny · Feb 7, 2018

Morrigan said:
I know you're banned now (wasn't me, for the record, but I can't say I disagree with it) but I want to respond to this.

What you are doing is constantly moving the goalposts. Like the pizzagate thing. You initially said you want something "more harmful than ignorant". I explain to you how harmful the pizzagate conspiracy theory has been. Now you say "liking a tweet isn't harmful". Same with Damore. If someone "likes", as in, endorses a tweet promoting a sexist person known and fired for his sexism, that is the same thing as being sexist yourself. I don't see how anyone could disagree with that. There is really no meaningful difference here, and your continued insistence of otherwise is so bizarre, it comes across as outright trolling. There isn't even the caveat here of "well, I don't like ___'s stance on X, but I agree with them on Y".

Handwaving that as "guilt by association" is fallacious because... well, this isn't what guilt by association means. "Guilt by association" as a fallacy doesn't include examples where the person is willingly and openly associating themselves with the "guilty group".

"Guilt by association" here might be a valid point with regards to Warhorse employees with regards to Vávra. Not with regards to Vávra choosing to associate himself with almost every alt-right figure out there.

This is important since the concept of only being culpable for the worst of your crimes seems to be a growing "get out" for many undeniable bad people in the world today.

Trump equivocal response to the Charlotesville murder can be disregarded because he didn't proclaim "Nazis are great!" Nigel Farage can go and speak on Trump's platform but he is not promoting his terrible ideas as he didn't speak directly on any of them.

There needs to be push back on those who are trying to weasel out of responsibility for other people. It usually belies their own beliefs, that they are unwilling to espouse for fear of rightful blowback.

Fisty · Feb 7, 2018

God that Vavra response is pure bullshit. There is a perfectly valid reason that publicly-facing companies impose restrictions or guidelines for social media, and if he was SOOOOOOO concerned with the rest of the team suffering for his edgelord alt-right bullshit, then maybe he should have kept his fucking mouth shut.

Wont be buying this game until it's in the bargain bin, and even then I won't be buying it at all if it's got problematic shit strewn throughout, even if its $10 and game of the century.

Reap what you sow, asshole

decoyplatypus · Feb 7, 2018

Flips said:
Probably gonna get the game knowing Vavra's views. Why? Because I love the idea of a non-fantasy medieval RPG and I just want to play it. Will wait for reviews/impressions, though.

How can I live with myself? By being an active member of the Young Socialists (giving talks, information stands, etc.), taking part in anti-nazi demonstrations and doing other stuff like this IRL. I think that outweighs boycotting a video game because of one guy (even when he's head of the studio). I've actuallly talked to some of my fellow party members about this and the response was kinda mixed; some agreed with me, some didn't. And I can understand why some people will/would boycott the game. I even feel a bit like a hypocrite typing this but when it comes to video games, I tend to ignore stuff I otherwise wouldn't.

I'm not planning to get the game, but I don't think you need to feel bad about buying it even while opposing Vavra's politics. There aren't a whole lot of hard and fast rules about when buying a ticket becomes meaningfully supporting a person you'd rather not. You can see all the movie critics debating this among themselves wrt writers and directors with histories of committing abuse or holding reprehensible views. There's no unified theory of how to think about seeing Mel Gibson or Woody Allen movies. (Granted, Vavra is a harder case because he is supporting an active harassment campaign).

The fact that we can all separate art from artist (something that time will eventually do for most art, anyway) doesn't make the immediate issue of supporting a repulsive person any easier. It's just not the kind of moral question where people tend to feel a lot of confidence telling others the right answer. You can see in this thread, wherever people come down on KC:D, they tend to caution that it's a personal decision and not something they're stating as a rule for others.

Separately, on the representation issue: it's absolutely true that videogame developers should design more inclusive games and that the industry broadly should support more diverse creators so that the kinds of stories that get told are more representative, but it's awkward to have that fight over a Czech developer's simulation of a tiny portion of medieval Bohemia, featuring several cultures that have not had frequent (or flattering) representations in videogames. Of course the blame belongs entirely with Vavra. His statements and political views naturally provoke suspicion of bad faith. But I think other arguments against Kingdom Come: Deliverance are more persuasive.

Einherjer · Feb 7, 2018

sensui-tomo said:
its not like he's permabanned, hell its only for 3 days.

As a German myself i'm disgusted how easily some ppl are branded as Nazis, there is a huge difference between someone right-leaning and a Nazi which are the personification of evil if there ever was something like that in this world, so the nonchalant use of this word here is really offensive to me.

MrNelson · Feb 7, 2018

Fisty said:
Wont be buying this game until it's in the bargain bin, and even then I won't be buying it at all if it's got problematic shit strewn throughout, even if its $10 and game of the century.

I'd say if you want to buy it, buy used. Even in the bargain bin he still gets a cut.

Or on PC, wait for a Humble Bundle with it, and change the contribution so you donate all of it to charity.

tet666 said:
As a German myself i'm disgusted how easily some ppl are branded as Nazis, there is a huge difference between someone right-leaning and a Nazi which are the personification of evil if there ever was something like that in this world, so the nonchalantly use of this word here is really offensive to me.

Normal people with right-leaning political beliefs don't make a habit out of following Neo-Nazis on social media.

BernardoOne · Feb 7, 2018

Morrigan said:
I don't know why you're under the impression that we don't have European mods. We have mods from the US, Canada, Europe, Asia, Australia, South America... all over the world really.

As a member of the staff who is not American, I don't appreciate people spreading falsehoods about the staff.

Who knows. He endorses James Damore, who certainly does.

Pizzagate is harmless to you? Harassment and even a shooting is not "harmful"?

I'm sure we'd find someone willing to handwave that too. "He's sarcastic, he's joking, he's just brainwashed and it's not his fault, he's not American and doesn't speak English well so it's not his fault".

You were shown evidence and just handwaved it over and over. Calling James Damore a hero and being a fan of Mike Cernovich and other MRA figures is not evidence of sexism. Supporting a harassment campaign targeting women is not evidence of sexism either, apparently. Endorsing Breitbart and Gavin McInnes, a white nationalist, is not evidence of racism. Endorsing Pizzagate and all the alt-right talking points, endorsing all of the most prominent alt-right figures, isn't evidence of being alt-right. Well, OK then.

Honestly, I really don't.

Honestly, photos of Vavra at alt-right even could pop up, and that poster would still be crying "guilty by associatiooooooon" . The goalpost moving is amusing and it's pretty clear the poster won't accept anything short of Vavra signing some kind of official alt-right join contract or some shit lmao

tet666 said:
As a German myself i'm disgusted how easily some ppl are branded as Nazis, there is a huge difference between someone right-leaning and a Nazi which are the personification of evil if there ever was something like that in this world, so the nonchalant use of this word here is really offensive to me.

the only thing offensive here is how little fucking research you did about this in any capacity, tbh. No, Vavra isn't simply "right leaning"

Separating Games from their Creators - Kingdom Come: Deliverance

User requested account closure

Banned for use of an alt account

User requested account closure

Spear of the Metal Church

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account

Spear of the Metal Church

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account

Community Resettler