Shenmue 3 Kickstarter Backers will not receive preorder/Deluxe Edition bonuses

Zafir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,802
Ok I get that Steam/PC users are pissed. And I don't really have an issue with people complaining about it , you can read my posts on this thread and its mostly only been that I am not upset at this. But people do need to understand how kickstarter works. It is not the same as preordering. The product barely exists outside of being an idea. 90% of the time you are going to get a worse deal than the rest of the people.
You need to stop assuming people don't know how kickstarter works. You also need to stop suggesting people can't complain because "that's just how kickstarter is".

As I said earlier in the thread, I've backed over a 100 projects on Kickstarter. I'm a fan of the model, I think it's great for smaller companies to be able to bring their ideas into fruition. 2 of those were failures, which was disappointing not gunna lie, but it happens. Sometimes projects fail, that's life. I didn't stop kickstarting after those failures, and you know what I'm probably not going to after this. I don't think other indie developers/project creators should be punished for a few bad apples.

What I do have a problem with, is companies stomping all over those backers without much of a consideration for them. Which is absolutely what happened with the PC backers, and the pre-order bonus is just pouring more fuel on the fire.

Of course they don't have to give backers anything more than the bare minimum, but that besides the point. Offering the pre-order bonus could have gone towards mending that bridge they just burned. But they couldn't even be bothered to do that.
 

s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,014
Birmingham, UK
Countdown to thread becoming Epic exclusive.


YS Net have nothing to do with preorder bonuses. As far as the retail version is concerned, YS Net are just the developer. Unfortunately, Deep Silver have not taken backers into account in any of their decisions.
Ys Net created the content used for pre-order bonuses, and we only have faith that it was actually created with Deep Silver's money specifically for that purpose; so little of the game has been shown that we have no way of knowing for certain if that's the case.

Ys Net signed the contracts seemingly ceding complete control of their own game to Deep Silver, did this after the funding campaign, and either didn't consider how this might affect backers or didn't care. That's the most generous case for them too; we really have no idea whether Deep Silver have complete control.

Ys Net refused to issue refunds to backers that they had either directly, or as a consequence of their deal with Deep Silver, screwed over with the EGS deal. It required Epic's intervention before they changed that decision.

Whether directly or as an indirect consequence of their business decisions, Ys Net are at the very least partially responsible for the issues with this campaign, and that includes the pre-order bonus situation. They shouldn't be absolved just because Yu Suzuki's a personal hero to some people.
 

BronsonLee

it me
Member
Oct 24, 2017
15,550
Did we point out that the base Kickstarter backers that got a digital copy was at a 30$ price point (which is what I backed it at)
Right now Shenmue 3 is 50$ on the stores
Is this preorder DLC worth 20 extra bucks cause that's some expensive ass shit
 

newyokohama

Member
Jul 10, 2018
312
I just wanted to play more Shenmue, so I backed for $100. I've been wondering if maybe what I really wanted all along was to be 21 again. Once all this minutiae clears, I look forward to the answer.
 

ianpm31

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,975
Did we point out that the base Kickstarter backers that got a digital copy was at a 30$ price point (which is what I backed it at)
Right now Shenmue 3 is 50$ on the stores
Is this preorder DLC worth 20 extra bucks cause that's some expensive ass shit
I believe it's a "blazing kick" move (potentially an early unlock but not confirmed), Kenpogi training outfit, and a starter pack.
 

Bowl0l

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,291
As I said smart backers no need to split hairs *eye roll*.
Going to look forward when all these smart backers rise up and bring 10 million to the shenmue 4 kickstarter. That'll show all the dumb backers to adjust their expectations properly.
Did you get the update from Ys Net on what happened to above $60 tier rewards?
I surely didn't.
 

Peff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
692
I mean, in the case of Shovel Knight and Hollow Knight, the updates have been stretch goals. It would be trash if it weren't free for backers.
This is what Yacht Club had as a stretch goal:

Play the full game as a member of the Order of No Quarter! If we meet this stretch goal, we’ll hold a vote to see who it will be. Expect the game to play differently! For example, Propeller Knight could have the ability to hover for short distances, but would be a low health ‘glass cannon’ of sorts. Even the story and dialog will change a little bit to reflect the changes!
Instead of that, they've basically been working on three new campaigns with remixed music, new level design, stories, hubs, challenges... they've basically been working on delivering that for five years and they would have been justified in charging more, but they didn't. Likewise, Team Cherry set a stretch goal for a "second playable character with their own unique quests and abilities". They're now giving away a full game to all backers instead.
 

Maximo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,319
You got a company like this, then you got a company like Team Cherry who promised Hollow Knight DLC but since it was such a huge project it turned into its own game and is giving it free to those who backed a copy of Hollow Knight.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,150
I'm not saying that alone should mean they offer refunds.

I'm saying that the delay would reasonably impact which format people want.

Like I backed Sportsfriends, and by the time they came around to delivering the game I had bought a PS4, so I asked to switch to a PS4 version. They let me because they didn't have total contempt for their backers.

In fact they actually just gave me a PS4 code in addition to my steam code, which was obviously very nice of them but not at all required.
Wow. There is entitled, then there is this.

Just because another developer offered something above and beyond, you're gonna hold contempt for YsNet because they aren't offering the same.

Probably wise to check what you were paying for when you Kickstarted it. It's not shitty if they're not going above and beyond for all of the original backers. That's just so unreasonable.
 

Lothars

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,154
Did we point out that the base Kickstarter backers that got a digital copy was at a 30$ price point (which is what I backed it at)
Right now Shenmue 3 is 50$ on the stores
Is this preorder DLC worth 20 extra bucks cause that's some expensive ass shit
what about the backers who spent more than that? Nothing being asked is unreasonable here

Wow. There is entitled, then there is this.



Just because another developer offered something above and beyond, you're gonna hold contempt for YsNet because they aren't offering the same.



Probably wise to check what you were paying for when you Kickstarted it. It's not shitty if they're not going above and beyond for all of the original backers. That's just so unreasonable.
you know what's unreasonable is the insane defense that you and others seem to rush to give them when they don't deserve that. They fucked up multiple times but you seem to think that's entitlement.
 

BronsonLee

it me
Member
Oct 24, 2017
15,550
what about the backers who spent more than that? Nothing being asked is unreasonable here
Then they can have their own come to Jesus moment about what's more important to them content wise
I said in the beginning that they really should just throw in the pre-order stuff to give backers a bone

Kinda weird people keep bringing up Team Cherry & other Kickstarter devs throwing in bonuses, those are outliers and should be applauded as such, not the norm and definitely not an expectation
 
May 25, 2019
184
I mean that's unfair. I have a lot of fondness for Kickstarters, and a lot of great games have been made because of them. As much as I'm massively disappointed in what transpired from this particular one, I'm still goint to participate in kickstarters.

The problem here is Ys Net decided to sell out the backers to a publisher who doesn't give a damn about said backers.
Not every kickstarter treat their fan/backer as sub-consumer who are only good enough to give them loan a 0% interest while they hunt for proper investor who will require contract to protect their interest at the cost of those who kickstarted the game with little to no protection.
You guys are going to keep being taken advantage of if that is your lesson/takeaway from this.

There is almost no benefit for crowdfunding a game. The minimal discount you may receive is offset by the fact that they have your money for years ahead of time. On the other hand, we have seen broken promises time and time again, especially with games promising Steam keys and then going exclusive to the Epic Store for a year. If you are somebody who gets upset over that, why are you still crowdfunding games years ahead of release?
 

Lothars

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,154
Then they can have their own come to Jesus moment about what's more important to them content wise
I said in the beginning that they really should just throw in the pre-order stuff to give backers a bone

Kinda weird people keep bringing up Team Cherry & other Kickstarter devs throwing in bonuses, those are outliers and should be applauded as such, not the norm and definitely not an expectation
yeah but what they have done is not typically because they have killed any good will they had because of decisions they made. Other kickstarters are perfect examples of how to do it right and should be held to a better standard.

You guys are going to keep being taken advantage of if that is your lesson/takeaway from this.



There is almost no benefit for crowdfunding a game. The minimal discount you may receive is offset by the fact that they have your money for years ahead of time. On the other hand, we have seen broken promises time and time again, especially with games promising Steam keys and then going exclusive to the Epic Store for a year. If you are somebody who gets upset over that, why are you still crowdfunding games years ahead of release?
you do realize that this kickstarter and point Phoenix where kickstarted years ago and because of what's happening with these and epic that it has turned off people from backing projects and might even result in some games not being made because of it.
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,204
I still don't get how Yacht Club even stayed profitable. Plague of Shadows already took them a year or something, then they slapped another campaign on it for free that had completely different gameplay and levels, and now they are still working on another one. It's kind of crazy tbh.

Team Cherry is going there, but I think they will actually stop giving stuff away fro free once Silksong is out.
The thing about Team Cherry giving away Silksong to backers is...they only had 2100 backers. Giving Silksong for free to 2000 people who helped them out is nothing compared to the millions who have/are going to buy Silksong.

Yacht Club, on the other hand....they don't make any sense to me. They even said on a podcast that development of Plague of Shadows was like a million dollars. I can't imagine Spectre of Torment was less. I guess they've built up a lot of good will at least!
 

Raoh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,415
Im just glad that despite of the daily articles that put shenmue 3 in a negative light, that the game is a best seller in Japan and Uk and some point the U.S.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,150
what about the backers who spent more than that? Nothing being asked is unreasonable here

you know what's unreasonable is the insane defense that you and others seem to rush to give them when they don't deserve that. They fucked up multiple times but you seem to think that's entitlement.
how exactly am I rushing to the defense of YsNet by pointing out that there was never any obligation to allow backers a refund in the event that they simply changed their mind ?

here are the terms and conditions for backing this Kickstarter. if you agree to them, please continue.
3 years later you change your mind because you bought a PC, still have a PS4, want it on PC but they won't swap for you.
"i want a refund"

like literally what? please explain it to me. just because you want something doesn't mean you get it. and just because they aren't bending over backwards for you, does not make them shitty.

if you didn't even back S3...stop posting.
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,858
Athens, Greece
I could have seen a ton of goodwill generated if they offered the preorder content as a gift to backers, especially after the mess the exclusivity deal created.

They do not have to but that's what happens with all the free stuff, they give them for a purpose.

And if the game is not as good as people want it to be, oh boy, we are going to have another round.
 

Zafir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,802
You guys are going to keep being taken advantage of if that is your lesson/takeaway from this.

There is almost no benefit for crowdfunding a game. The minimal discount you may receive is offset by the fact that they have your money for years ahead of time. On the other hand, we have seen broken promises time and time again, especially with games promising Steam keys and then going exclusive to the Epic Store for a year. If you are somebody who gets upset over that, why are you still crowdfunding games years ahead of release?
I have to ask, do you even back things yourself? As I just said before, I've backed over one hundred projects across kickstarter/fig/indiegogo, I've only been really annoyed at two projects, and funnily enough, Epic can be thanked for both of those. Phoenix Point, and Shenmue 3.

I'll maybe be more cautious over games in the future, but I'm certainly not going to paint every single developer out there with the same brush because two out of over a hundred projects decided to sell their soul to epic.
 
May 25, 2019
184
I have to ask, do you even back things yourself? As I just said before, I've backed over one hundred projects across kickstarter/fig/indiegogo, I've only been really annoyed at two projects, and funnily enough, Epic can be thanked for both of those. Phoenix Point, and Shenmue 3.

I'll maybe be more cautious over games in the future, but I'm certainly not going to paint every single developer out there with the same brush because two out of over a hundred projects decided to sell their soul to epic.
No, I don’t. Because crowdfunding is not even on the same level as preordering a game - the team can take your money and give you nothing.

You seem to be comfortable with trusting every developer and publisher to make good on their word.
 

Lothars

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,154
how exactly am I rushing to the defense of YsNet by pointing out that there was never any obligation to allow backers a refund in the event that they simply changed their mind ?

here are the terms and conditions for backing this Kickstarter. if you agree to them, please continue.
3 years later you change your mind because you bought a PC, still have a PS4, want it on PC but they won't swap for you.
"i want a refund"

like literally what? please explain it to me. just because you want something doesn't mean you get it. and just because they aren't bending over backwards for you, does not make them shitty.

if you didn't even back S3...stop posting.
i backed it because i wanted to support them but now with how they have treated backers. I am not going to get a refund but a refund is the bare minimum that they required after the epic deal.
 

Arttemis

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
2,549
Countdown to thread becoming Epic exclusive.


YS Net have nothing to do with preorder bonuses. As far as the retail version is concerned, YS Net are just the developer. Unfortunately, Deep Silver have not taken backers into account in any of their decisions.
Thanks for the clarification. I'm not actually very familiar with either company and assumed ysnet was a publisher.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,150
i backed it because i wanted to support them but now with how they have treated backers. I am not going to get a refund but a refund is the bare minimum that they required after the epic deal.
note: lol at you not even replying to anything i said after claiming i was rushing to their defense.

if you backed a PC copy you're getting a refund.
if you backed a PS4 copy literally what is your problem? ethics? the principle?

get your money back and move on. the constant shitting on + campaigning for this game to fail is fucking tiresome my dude. Yu could cut his index finger off at this point and it still wouldn't be enough to the most blood thirsty here.

get yours and let it go. and let the people who want to enjoy it, play it, and see it succeed, be.
 

Lothars

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,154
note: lol at you not even replying to anything i said after claiming i was rushing to their defense.

if you backed a PC copy you're getting a refund.
if you backed a PS4 copy literally what is your problem? ethics? the principle?

get your money back and move on. the constant shitting on + campaigning for this game to fail is fucking tiresome my dude. Yu could cut his index finger off at this point and it still wouldn't be enough to the most blood thirsty here.

get yours and let it go. and let the people who want to enjoy it, play it, and see it succeed, be.
Your are defending them and you haven't made any good points regarding it.

It is the principle even if I was getting a ps4 key but I'm sure not getting an epic key.
 

Ingueferroque

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
10,324
Im just glad that despite of the daily articles that put shenmue 3 in a negative light, that the game is a best seller in Japan and Uk and some point the U.S.
The articles aren't putting Shenmue 3 in a negative light. Ysnet and Deep Silver are putting Shenmue 3 in a negative light.
Stop assuming people who are upset/have something negative to say have an agenda.

How can anyone defend this?
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,852
The thing about Team Cherry giving away Silksong to backers is...they only had 2100 backers. Giving Silksong for free to 2000 people who helped them out is nothing compared to the millions who have/are going to buy Silksong.

Yacht Club, on the other hand....they don't make any sense to me. They even said on a podcast that development of Plague of Shadows was like a million dollars. I can't imagine Spectre of Torment was less. I guess they've built up a lot of good will at least!
Oh I didn't know Team Cherry only got so few backers back then. Their threads on the old forum were pretty small though for sure. I'm so glad it payed off for them. Same with you by the way, 2 of my favourite games this gen. I still need to double dip on Switch for yours.

But yeah now I recall that 1 million statement of Yachtclub as well. I just hope they start cashing in on that good will at some point. Nobody expected anything more of them for free after Spectre and they are doing it anyway, the madmen. Seems like their Treasure Trove model helped at least.
 

Zafir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,802
No, I don’t. Because crowdfunding is not even on the same level as preordering a game - the team can take your money and give you nothing.

You seem to be comfortable with trusting every developer and publisher to make good on their word.
No I'm just smart with what I back hence why I have a good track record with only 2 failures and 2 EGS buyouts. I couldn't have predicted epic going crazy with their money trying buy backers to get them to use their storefront that's lacking in features. No one could have.
 

Kneefoil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,510
Season pass I could understand but why no preorder bonuses?
This is kind of where my head is at. It's hard for me too get too mad about this, because the only part of the pre-order bonus I'd personally ever even potentially use would be the attack scroll, but just as a principle, excluding backers from basic pre-order bonuses is kind of weird and shitty. Like, I know backing isn't exactly pre-ordering, but backing a game at certain tiers is basically pre-ordering. Now it's like "buy two copies of the same thing, or screw you."

Season pass not being free is totally alright, though.
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,149
What I do have a problem with, is companies stomping all over those backers without much of a consideration for them. Which is absolutely what happened with the PC backers, and the pre-order bonus is just pouring more fuel on the fire.

Of course they don't have to give backers anything more than the bare minimum, but that besides the point. Offering the pre-order bonus could have gone towards mending that bridge they just burned. But they couldn't even be bothered to do that.
I never said people can't complain. Also the damage done by EGS far exceeds this. They would have to give something far more substantial to mend that bridge.
Good to know we are done here then lol. Have a nice day/good evening.
That wasn't really related to the discussion , it was some inside reference or w/e lmao . But I still stand by what I said to understand Kickstarter better , its not the best place to spend your money and its not the same as preordering.

Its great that other devs are able to offer free Season pass and stuff. Perhaps they are able to afford it , Its all relative. The difference between Bloodstained and Shenmue KS isn't that much. But just look at the difference in scope. The PC issue did burn bridges, but i don't think this would help really. It is far too insignificant. Maybe a Free season pass might. But then they would have to give it to PS4 and PC backers , which would be a big number.

Also if this isn't a retailer exclusive deal and is just a regular preorder bonus. I can't help but think everyone is going to get it. Most "Day 1 editions" are like this. Seems super weird that they are going to make different physical copies.
 
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Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,150
Lol you just backed up my point.
Do you actually think you're smart?
You've proven you don't have any interest in engaging in actual discussion about this topic considering you have addressed 0 of what I have posted.
A troll, plain and simple. A sad one too.
You're just coming off as angry, most likely about something else in your life, and you're taking it out on this topic and others in the thread. Bit boring, no?

When you're ready to engage properly, let me know.
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,204
Oh I didn't know Team Cherry only got so few backers back then. Their threads on the old forum were pretty small though for sure. I'm so glad it payed off for them. Same with you by the way, 2 of my favourite games this gen. I still need to double dip on Switch for yours.

But yeah now I recall that 1 million statement of Yachtclub as well. I just hope they start cashing in on that good will at some point. Nobody expected anything more of them for free after Spectre and they are doing it anyway, the madmen. Seems like their Treasure Trove model helped at least.
I totally understand Yacht Club wanting to generate content to validate bumping up the base price of their game, mainly for going physical. I'm not sure you could even make money selling a physical copy at $20, and they likely make only $5-6 on each physical copy as it is.
 

bsigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,241
This is kind of where my head is at. It's hard for me too get too mad about this, because the only part of the pre-order bonus I'd personally ever even potentially use would be the attack scroll, but just as a principle, excluding backers from basic pre-order bonuses is kind of weird and shitty. Like, I know backing isn't exactly pre-ordering, but backing a game at certain tiers is basically pre-ordering. Now it's like "buy two copies of the same thing, or screw you."

Season pass not being free is totally alright, though.
I would assume it has something to do with standard and deluxe edition extra content likely being funded by 505 Games who technically can't count/won't receive any portion of a sale from any of the backers.

Remember Kickstarter isn't the purchase of a item, it's a pledge to an idea with the hope that the campaign runners actually deliver on that idea.
 

Erekiddo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
360
I think it’s time for me to come clean based off of recent events.

I cancelled the $10,000 jacket tier on purpose.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,640
You guys are going to keep being taken advantage of if that is your lesson/takeaway from this.

There is almost no benefit for crowdfunding a game. The minimal discount you may receive is offset by the fact that they have your money for years ahead of time. On the other hand, we have seen broken promises time and time again, especially with games promising Steam keys and then going exclusive to the Epic Store for a year. If you are somebody who gets upset over that, why are you still crowdfunding games years ahead of release?
Before this whole Deep silver debacle I have been involved with a grand total of 1 game which didn't deliver as expected ( Sealark ), not counting delay.

Other projects allowed the revival of a dead licence like Toejam and Earl and Tex murphy gave me a better game than diablo 3 with grim dawn, gave me an amazing coop RPG with divinity original sin, etc etc... with pretty much no complaints about the way backer were treated with those projects ( bad communication usually being the biggest problem I could have ).

Participating in something which has some risk associated to it, does not give it a "no complaints can be made" pass, otherwise you pretty much can't complain about anything.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,852
I totally understand Yacht Club wanting to generate content to validate bumping up the base price of their game, mainly for going physical. I'm not sure you could even make money selling a physical copy at $20, and they likely make only $5-6 on each physical copy as it is.
Oh for sure, I just hope they still have enough funds to realise their next project after they finished their third free campaign. Because as you said, I can't imagine Spectre of Torment or King of Cards costing less than Plague of Shadows did, either. Even without the next campaign the Treasure Trove would already be a steal.
That wasn't really related to the discussion , it was some inside reference or w/e. But I still stand by what I said to understand Kickstarter better , its not the best place to spend your money and its not the same as preordering.

Its great that other devs are able to offer free Season pass and stuff. Perhaps they are able to afford it , Its all relative. The difference between Bloodstained and Shenmue KS isn't that much. But just look at the difference in scope.
I know, I just figured that since you answered others but not me that you didn't want to continue the discussion. I think there's a huge difference between the two Kickstarters and how they turned out for their customer base, because at this point for some people it doesn't even matter anymore how the actual game turns out in case of Shenmue. but let's leave it at that. Because I actually need to go to sleep lol. Way too late here. Was nice having a non-toxic talk with you, anyway.
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,149

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,556
I don't understand why people are saying "PS4 backers", platform choices have not been locked in, and Ys Net have even said people can still change their mind. Kinda feels like people just want to disagree with anything anyone says that is critical of how Ys Net have handled things, even if by doing so they are even contradicting what Ys Net have said.

I get it, you're in to deep into the Shenmue 3 defence force that you can't back down now, but please at least try to keep some grip onto basic logic.

Wow. There is entitled, then there is this.

Just because another developer offered something above and beyond, you're gonna hold contempt for YsNet because they aren't offering the same.

Probably wise to check what you were paying for when you Kickstarted it. It's not shitty if they're not going above and beyond for all of the original backers. That's just so unreasonable.
I don't think you have understood any of what I said or any of what is actually going on here.

I also don't think you understand what the word entitled means.
 

Lothars

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,154
Yes its going to be really unfortunate if the game turns out great but this entire PR debacle destroys it. But hey wouldn't be the first time Shenmue failed because of signing deals with the devil.
.
id love the game to succeed.

Do you actually think you're smart?

You've proven you don't have any interest in engaging in actual discussion about this topic considering you have addressed 0 of what I have posted.

A troll, plain and simple. A sad one too.

You're just coming off as angry, most likely about something else in your life, and you're taking it out on this topic and others in the thread. Bit boring, no?



When you're ready to engage properly, let me know.
none of what you've said in this thread has had warrented discussion and you came into the middle of it and basically said we were all entitled. If you read other posts you could grasp the issues but you decided to shit on everyone.
 
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Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,150
I don't think you have understood any of what I said or any of what is actually going on here.

I also don't think you understand what the word entitled means.
you said:

I don't see why they wouldn't let all backers get a refund. Someone might have originally gone for PS4, but ended up buying a gaming PC in the 18 months that the game has been delayed by.
how don't you see why it's entitled to think that such an event warrants a refund?
how is not offering a refund in this circumstance "contempt for their backers" ?

id love the game to succeed.
then why are you continuing to bash them over "the principle" ?
bit counter intuitive don't you think?
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,556
you said:



how don't you see why it's entitled to think that such an event warrants a refund?
how is not offering a refund in this circumstance "contempt for their backers" ?



then why are you continuing to bash them over "the principle" ?
bit counter intuitive don't you think?
The refunds are not being offered because people are entitled to them.

The refunds are being offered because Ys Net want to put out the PR fire that they themselves started.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,150
The refunds are not being offered because people are entitled to them.

The refunds are being offered because Ys Net want to put out the PR fire that they themselves started.
mate, you did not even answer my question.
can you try again?

you're saying I haven't understood anything you've said, so when I ask you to clarify...you answer with something I already know.