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Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,406
This meshes with my line of thought. As old Cap doesn't return via the platform, but seems to be part of the main timeline anyway. This is how I imagine it playing out:

-Traveling back in time means you were always part of the main timeline, unless you drastically alter course. 2012 Loki escaping, Thanos & Friends leaving 2014 entirely, these create new branches.
-Cap is able to navigate these new branches in order to return the stones.
-Goes back further before any possible branching to be with Peggy, doesn't do anything to interfere with established events and remains in the main timeline. So yes, he was always Peggy's husband.

The main issue being why doesn't Cap interfere with things like Bucky, Hydra within SHIELD etc.. Well, he would for sure create a new branch, which he may ultimately doom by stepping out of line. They have failures, but end up saving countless lives with the way things play out, the stakes are too high to risk. He wanted a life and got one, knowing things will be all right.

This is sloppy because how do you define "drastically alter course" the mere presence of a time traveler, would likely set off a chain of events that lead to the timeline ultimately taking a different course. Is the universe just observing every situation and saying "nah you know what, this universe is 'close enough' to this other universe that I'm going erase all these people from existence.

For example, alternate Jane foster was attacked by a space Raccoon. that's a life experience that could eventually lead to some very different things happening in that timeline. Maybe this puts her In different place when the dark elves arrive, or puts Asgaurd on high alert, so they are better prepared for the attack.

Same With Alternate Quill, he got knocked the fuck out prior to getting the powerstone. Who know what the chain reaction of this would be going forward. Would this leave him in a bad spot when Ronan's guy shows up for the Stone?

Same with the 1970 timeline. Even though cap returned the Stone, shield suffered a security breach, and would likely be trying to figure out wtf happened. What if the investigation lead to some security protocols that ended up changing how they do business, ultimately preventing/causing things that would have occurred differently otherwise. Hell, what if they look at security footage, and see the tesseract being taken, then replaced moments later by Cap. That's not insignificant!
 
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Fuzzy

Completely non-threatening
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,143
Toronto
60261953_2296474460446358_3849638153010806784_n.jpg


What could have been...
Didn't include Misty and Colleen? Horrible.
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
Obviously he is Steve, so unless you're arguing some kind of essentialism he's the same guy with substantially the same experiences.
You can't have two Steve Rogers in one timeline and say they're the exact same person. If Old Man Steve has been in the MCU the whole time then he's not the same Steve that 2 seconds prior got on the platform.
 

ZeroCDR

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,144
This is sloppy because how do you define "drastically alter course" the mere presence of a time traveler, could likely set off a chain of events that lead to the timeline ultimately taking a different course. Is the universe just observing every situation and saying "nah you know what, this universe is 'close enough' to this other universe that I'm going erase all these people from existence.

For example, alternate Jane foster was attacked by a space Raccoon. that's a life experience that could eventually lead to some very different things happening in that timeline. Who's the judge?

Same With Alternate Quill, he got knocked the fuck out prior to getting the powerstone. Who know what the chain reaction of this would be going forward.

I'm just basing this off of if it's "the rules" that time travelers themselves don't set off branches until there's a big divergence. Time Travel doesn't exist so the logic is never perfect, but I'm resigned to believe the Marvel universe would course correct small changes in the main timeline without branching.

We didn't see how exactly Rocket interacted with Jane, depending on the severity it may cause a new branch where Jane is now terrified of Raccoons and Thor is wondering why his hammer disappeared for a minute, but probably not.

Alternate Quill getting clocked is from the same branch where Thanos completely disappears by going into the future, so yes that's a huge alternate branch (And very worth exploring someday I hope).
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,406
I'm just basing that off of it is indeed "the rules" that time travelers themselves don't set off branches until there's a big divergence. Time Travel doesn't exist so the logic is never perfect, but I'm resigned to believe the Marvel universe would course correct small changes in the main timeline without branching.

We didn't see how exactly Rocket interacted with Jane, depending on the severity it may cause a new branch where Jane is now terrified of Raccoons and Thor is wondering why his hammer disappeared for a minute, but probably not.

Alternate Quill getting clocked is from the same branch where Thanos completely disappears by going into the future, so yes that's a huge alternate branch.

Jane got attacked by a racoon just prior to Dark Elves attacking and killing Thor's mom, so guards are probably on higher alert. Also, Frigga has now be gotten a hint from Thor that something bad may be about to happen. You don't think that could have any effect on how the "surprise attack" plays out?

Again, the question is, what are the forces that determine if simple "course correction" is sufficient. What if Tony's convo with Howard, changes where he ends up in traffic, and that inadvertently causes some random person to NOT die in traffic, like they otherwise would have- is that a big difference? The butterfly effect would be all over this.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
You can't have two Steve Rogers in one timeline and say they're the exact same person. If Old Man Steve has been in the MCU the whole time then he's not the same Steve that 2 seconds prior got on the platform.

It depends what you mean by "exactly the same person." When Steve ends up fighting himself I guess you can say that the 2012 Steve has the same past as 2023 Steve up to that point, but not the same future, because 2023 Steve didn't meet and fight himself in 2012 in the timeline he comes from. They're clearly the same person, they just have histories that diverge in 2012.
 

ZeroCDR

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,144
Jane got attacked by a racoon just prior to Dark Elves attacking and killing Thor's mom, so guards are probably on higher alert. Also, Frigga has now be gotten a hint from Thor that something bad may be about to happen. You don't think that could have any effect on how the "surprise attack" plays out?

It could, and it could create a new branch, but that's entirely irrelevant to Cap's situation.

Again, the question is, what are the forces that determine if simple "course correction" is sufficient. What if Tony's convo with Howard, changes where he ends up in traffic, and that inadvertently causes some random person to NOT die in traffic, like they otherwise would have- is that a big difference? The butterfly effect would be all over this.

Also irrelevant to Cap and Peggy, but ultimately since nothing major changed, this whole sequence could still be a part of the main timeline too.

I don't worry about forces and butterfly effects unless the movie tells me to, it's whatever the writers want to do, really. I don't make up the rules, I'm only inferring with the information presented to me that results in an answer I'm satisfied with, because time travel never makes perfect sense. If you don't like it, that's cool.

Folks saying Cap wont create a new timeline if he's careful need to go watch Sliding Doors.

It depends on the writers' logic, not the time travel rules of other films.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
Jumped back into this thread to maybe talk about this movie but all I see is back and forth about time travel :(

Is that really going to be the lasting legacy of this film?
 

perry0718

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 6, 2019
108

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
Sorry, I'm still still a few pages out from the end of this thread but I gotta say, this just makes things unnecessarily complicated. Cap goes back to the 40s and lives through to the end of the movie. Why make it more complex?
I agree with you. The film implies something that works with what the screenwriters are saying and Joe is unnecessarily complicating things.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,624
A lot of people are going to disagree with me probably but the way the movie is written, going back in time alone doesn't cause a split.

If they can return the stones to fix the timelines they took the stones from, that means that either they could go back without a split necessarily happening, or that the timeline just remain doomed and a new branch was fixed, which would be pointless.
 

perry0718

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 6, 2019
108
It's not that complicated though.

I'm 45 years old. If we're all hanging out in a park and I go back to 1974 and suddenly you see my 90 year old ass sitting on a bench, isn't the most logical explanation that I lived through those 45 years again and caught up with everyone hanging out in the park?
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,052
I'm 45 years old. If we're all hanging out in a park and I go back to 1974 and suddenly you see my 90 year old ass sitting on a bench, isn't the most logical explanation that I lived through those 45 years again and caught up with everyone hanging out in the park?

Only thing I'm saying is that their explanation, that he was in another timeline, isn't that hard to grasp. You preferring another interpretation or whatever is besides the point.
 

perry0718

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 6, 2019
108
Only thing I'm saying is that their explanation, that he was in another timeline, isn't that hard to grasp. You preferring another interpretation or whatever is besides the point.

I guess, but I just don't see the point of their explanation. He caught up with them, end of story. Just like the DeLorean from 1885 caught up with Doc & Marty in 1955 in BTTF 3.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,406
I'm 45 years old. If we're all hanging out in a park and I go back to 1974 and suddenly you see my 90 year old ass sitting on a bench, isn't the most logical explanation that I lived through those 45 years again and caught up with everyone hanging out in the park?

The branching timeline idea is simpler to me.

Throughout the whole movie, everytime someone travelled back to relive a moment in time , it happened in an alternate timeline..

Now I'm supposed to assume in this single instance he was able to relive moments in the main timeline then sneak his old ass past some trained killers to sit in a bench.

Nah the simplest explanation is he answer, based on the rest of the movie, is he traveled there from another timeline....
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
No,what I'm saying is that when Cap went back to 194...7?, that became his present and he lived through the MCU events until the end. He caught up. He didn't change anything.

Yes, I know. I think it's a bit more complicated in the Many Worlds interpretation, but statistically you could be correct (all experimental data from QM experiments tends to be statistical.) I was referring to a famous scene in the film where, after much exposition, Scott summarises it with a line like "So you're saying Back to the Future is bullshit?"
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,624
The branching timeline idea is simpler to me.

Throughout the whole movie, everytime someone travelled back to relive a moment in time , it happened in an alternate timeline..
But that means that the timelines they removed the stones from really were doomed, which neither Banner or the Ancient One thought would be the case.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,406
But that means that the timelines they removed the stones from really were doomed, which neither Banner or the Ancient One thought would be the case.

No it doesn't. he returned to The PRESENT of those timelines, moments after the stones were taken. It's as if the stones never left.

Then he lived in an alternate with Peggy. Then he returned to the PRESENT of the main timeline.

Returning to the present of a timeline doesn't create branches. Branches are created by trying to relive a moment in time.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
It is bullshit. A time loop / time paradox isn't impossible in a quantum multiverse theory. One can live in his own timeline WITHOUT making an alternate timeline. That's what me and the screenwriters of the films think.

Yeah, I agree. It's only when you try to fit this thing into a classical model that it all goes weird. The catbox was originally a paradox invented by a classical physicist to disprove the Copenhagen model through absurdity. It failed in everything except demonstrating that quantum mechanics is very odd.
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
Yeah, I agree. It's only when you try to fit this thing into a classical model that it all goes weird. The catbox was originally a paradox invented by a classical physicist to disprove the Copenhagen model through absurdity. It failed in everything except demonstrating that quantum mechanics is very odd.
Learning quantum physics to make conversation is cool, like Nat taught me.
 

Kin5290

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,390
Been thinking about this a lot. IMO Hawkeye should have died in this movie. Reasons:
  1. It would be more interesting for Natasha to have to tell Clint's family of his death and deal with the aftermath instead of the reverse, which is Clint going home to his family and exiting the story. Imagine Nat picking up Barton's phone after the Snap
  2. Given that Natasha's defining character trait is guilt, being guilt ridden over Barton's death as well as the remainder of the "red in her ledger" could make for a powerful arc moving forward into Black Widow where she resolves her guilt and finds something to live for. As it stands a prequel Black Widow movie following her death is nothing but a Solo-esque dud (so I'm hoping it's not a "Explain the noodle incident" prequel).
  3. By contrast Hawkeye's story is completely over. There is zero reason for him to leave his family again, especially for him to mentor Kate Bishop. A Hawkeye Squared series could happen in the 5 year timeskip post Snap however.
  4. This could have allowed Nat to be part of the A-Force scene where she is the one running the gauntlet while the other female Avengers clear the way and Carol holds off Thanos. This is similar to Nando v Movies's alternative but with added resonance to the "She's not alone" message of the scene.
  5. You wouldn't be killing off two token female characters of two separate teams for the same exact reason in two consecutive movies this way.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,133
Chile
Hey, can I time travel and create an alternate timeline (that also isn't, because that would be my future) where Iron Man theme from IM3 plays in the movies after?



Do anyone remember if it plays somewhere in Endgame?
 

DMVfan123

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,362
Virginia
Watched it again today, just as amazing the second time!
Gonna end up watching it one or two more times before its theatrical run is over, further contributing to it beating Avatar (hopefully)
 

Jhey Cyphre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,099
Jumped back into this thread to maybe talk about this movie but all I see is back and forth about time travel :(

Is that really going to be the lasting legacy of this film?

I think we've entered the backlash period.

I just go by whats in the movie regarding the time travel.

What I assumed happened is once Cap returned the stones and Mjolnir he went back in time and lived his life. When that life was over he traveled back to the point were the timeline diverged and just chilled knowing that he would have to wait until the events of endgame were over. Yeah, it probably sucked, but he knew he had too. I personality like to think that in the alternative timeline he did a lot of good with what he knew. Probably avoided most of the crap that happened in the main timeline too. But I'm perfectly happy to never know anything about that.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,624
I don't think I can hear it. It sounds more antman, and then goes into the avengers theme remix.

My mistake, yeah that's the Avenger's theme at 0:55.

And I'd never realized Markus and McFeely had also written The Dark World. Maybe that's another reason why it's so prominent in Endgame.
 
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Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,406
Did anybody here enjoy the movie?

I was fantastic. My only criticism is that there was so little action during the heists.

I know they were supposed to be stealth missions, but the spell between action sequences was a bit much. I think maybe 2012 should have gone FUBAR in a more action oriented way, rather than a humorous one.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
If Thanos is as powerful as he is in Endgame without any stones, how did his species die off so easily?

It's like the Saiyans all dying off without a Freeza blowing them up.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,065
If Thanos is as powerful as he is in Endgame without any stones, how did his species die off so easily?

It's like the Saiyans all dying off without a Freeza blowing them up.
Hard to say because it was quite different in the comics. Marvel are working on an Eternals film (Thanos' species, sort of, he was half Eternal and half Deviant in the comics but don't know if they'll do that) so it'll likely be explained there.