You can. But not all Israelis' voted for this government, so you shouldn't criticize all Israelis.
Sorry for your loss.
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BBC: Israeli Supreme Court upholds ruling to raze Palestinian Village to the ground.
- Thread starter VectorPrime
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I do agree some of the rhetoric monitoring in the OP is odd, but I think it's more about avoiding generalization. There are some isrealis and jewish people within Israel fighting against this, even if a minority.
Here's my galaxy brain take on this. It's not that anyone even disagrees that maybe the comparison could be logically valid, but that in a hyper sensitive society filled with discrimination off every sort, any sort of historically uncomfortable label of a sensitive nature might need to be avoided to ease the burden of unpaid internet moderators who already struggle with a heavy workload of terrible things to moderate.
For example, in the Black Panther movie, you have the character M'Baku who in the old comics was known as MAN APE. A tribal black man villain character called Man Ape seems really racist! But they didn't change the character all that much - he leads a tribe that worships a giant ape god, there are tons of ape motifs, his battle cry is ape like, there's no shying away from associating his character with the ape animal. BUT at no point does anyone call him Man Ape, or any sort of ape. Because that would be a no no even if we understood it is not intended to be racially insensitive.
So for example we can certainly talk about how the prime minister of Israel and his government are genocidal pieces of human refuse, abusing nationalism to perform ethnic cleansing in their backyard. We can condemn the Israeli people who continue to vote them into power, much like how most of the police in America who protect their own are guilty by association. That does not mean all Israelis are bad, just like it doesn't mean all American cops are bad. But the society itself is complicit in genocide by lack of empathy and action for their fellow man. We can talk about Bibi's bizarre association with people who seem to admire Hitler, and talk about how hypocritical or ironic that is. Just don't have to say something like "Israel is turning into Nazi Germany" or whatever because even if you're thinking it, that comparison doesn't need to be made to derail the conversation further when we can focus on shitting on the unbelievably horrific things Israel does day to day in the Gaza strip.
Just my two cents.
The very first point in the OP, you talk about not conflating civillians with their government. The actions of the military and their oppression of Palestine has widespread support among Israelis. The vast majority are fine with what is happening. The ones who oppose it are a minority and they are fighting a losing battle. This is the reality.
Your second point is talking about not condoning violence yet we all know Hamas ain't shit and hasn't been for a long time. Meanwhile the IDF has been killing freely for a long time now. There is a huge power imbalance here.
Yet your whole policy statement in the OP reads as if you're trying to project these parties as if they're on equal ground.
If this is the starting point, it's already fucked up.
What are you doing if not disallowing criticism by trying to make it seem like everything is because of the Israeli government while perpetuating this facade that it's out of the hands of her citizens to do what is right?
What are you doing if not disallowing criticism by trying to project this narrative that the IDF and Hamas are on equal ground when the IDF has killed far, far more people?
This is the fucking hypocrisy I'm talking about with you mods.
When a black kid gets shot and we harp on the police, ain't none of you drawing a line.
When Trump does something shitty and people are outraged and talking about Americans fucking up and causing these problems, no one is drawing a line.
When conservatives are shit on by the minorities, no one is drawing a line.
Somehow you sons of bitches are able to recognize the imbalance of power and not allow it to affect the natural path of discourse.
But these threads right here have niggas jumping through hoops.
If Godwin's Law is invoking Hitler to win an argument about something rather meaningless, what should we call invoking something rather meaningless to win an argument about Hitler?
We absolutely have actioned those examples before.
For the fourth time, we don't generally allow blanket statements for all residents of a nation, that is not an Israel exclusive policy. No matter how many times you say it, that doesn't make it true.
No one is stoping you from criticizing the people who voted for the current government of Israel.
I thought, Milo, Kushner, and Miller were fair game since they've been associating themselves with Nazis and pushing Nazi policies
good thing you can't say that about anyone in the israeli government or this whole thing would look pretty stupid
Milo is fair game, as is Miller.
Kushner we are talking about.
Just being transparent here.
EDIT: Apologies, I jumped the gun here. There hasn't been any detailed discussion about this across the team. We'll talk it over and figure it out.
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This is not a coherent argument. It's the equivalent of a shitty parent telling its child to shut up or it gets smacked. It's condescending and quite insulting. There is no discussion to be had when this is the starting and end point.
The entire point of this policy is 'say whatever the fuck you want as long as what you want is mince words towards Israel and its actions.'
This is not the same standard as any other issue on Era, no matter how many times you say the opposite.
Bullshit you have.
I am a regular lurker of cop threads and not once has there ever been an issue about the charged rhetoric surrounding cops. And when some random poster tries to go the "not all cops" route, posters shut their ass down quickly and there's never been mod action.
And similary, I have not seen this kind of action in practice in a lot of heated discussions about America and their place in this world.
The fact that you dudes have created this huge semantics argument for this particular topic reeks of asshattery. And especially so when you directly ignored the greater context of my point which is that there is a huge imbalance here that you're subtly trying to have people ignore because you want them to be careful about their language.
it'll be hilarious once you can call kushner a nazi but not netanyahu, considering that they're close personal friends and their politics completely overlap
Fuck the police
Fuck republicans/conservatives
Fuck moderates
Fuck Reddit
Fuck anime avatars
Etc.
Are any of these actionable offenses, or is the rule exclusive to citizenship only?
What's the functional difference between Milo/Miller and the Israeli government? Just trying to understand the thought process here and to know where admin is coming from.
But here is the thing, in every other countries' politics, we are allow to criticize an administration ALONG with its voters. When it comes to Israel, it is a big no-no. It is the double standard that most forum inherited gets people frustrated.
Don't worry, when the Palestininian people are wiped out my kids will get to read in their histroy books how people were more concerned with not too rudely reminding the Israeli people of their history vs. giving a fuck about the ever increasing death and destruction. It's such an insane way to think I'm worried they will fall into Alex Jones 2.0 conspiracy theories explaining it away.
What's the difference between Kushner and the other two?
And how are any of them worse than those who vote for Netanyahu?
Kushner is only a fan of genocide for profit while they other two masturbate to the idea of it is the only thing I can think of.
In a democracy, there's another, far more suitable word for "leadership". It's "representatives". Dear mods, do you have ANY idea why - in a democracy - the government is called that way? I'm inclined to believe you actually do not because if you did you wouldn't have started this litany with this "hey, don't blame citizens in general for the actions of their leaders!" statement which - and this is the funny part - derailed this thread before I even got to read the actual OP.
*ring, ring* "1946 Germany there? Good news!"
Yeah, real life doesn't work that way.
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National Socialism is an ideology built on anti-Semitism. You cannot disassociate the two, as there is very little in terms of ideology for the Nazis. Racial purity, violence, and anti-Semitism. That's the belief system.
This policy lead to a genocide perpetuated against the Jewish people. Six million Jews (2/3rds of the European population) were killed in the Holocaust, along with many others.
Comparing Jewish people to Nazis is just about the worst thing you can say of a Jewish person. We do not allow racial epithets or insults on Resetera, and that protection has extended to the Jewish people and the term and ideology of Nazis.
Since the Israeli government is entirely staffed by Jewish people, that protection extends to the state of Israel as well.
You can disagree with our decision, but it is not a random one.
As I said, the rather specific policing is strange.
That said, you can criticize isrealis who support these policies or complacent with them. Less efficient, but it's what people mean generally.
What sense does this make? a regime can be compared to and act like their former oppressors real easy. We humans do it almost all the time.
If anything their history is why noone should be fucking shy to make the obvious comparison.
If any group in the world should be avoiding repeating the literal worst thing it should be the Israeli people.
The actions of the Israeli gov is why my father/grandma/aunt's/uncle REFUSE to go back to Israel after leaving in the 70s. Every single one of them would spit in Bibi's face if they had a chance if not worse.
I was typing a similar message but you did it so much better. I don't respond much but this bothers me so much on how the mods are acting. Look at the red text and the first point its making. Has that ever happen in any other "problematic" thread. Change a couple of the words and put it in another "problematic" thread and you can see how something like that just feels so disappointing. It's something that should be implied that people are not talking about everyone and in everyone other thread it is except when its about Israel. Feels more like you need to walk on eggshells in threads about Israel.
OT: I don't know how to respond without becoming emotional about it. People lives are going to be destroyed/killed....for what? So called defense, rights?
The Israeli government and the people who chose them are just plain evil.
I'm going to stop here since i don't know how to stay back on this crooked line. This whole situation is disappointing.
If it talks like a nazi, moves like a nazi and acts like a nazi you're banned for pointing it out. Now let's move on to what Resetera 2.0 will bring!
This was the argument i was replying to:
I don't see how these statements differ. What makes one acceptable and the other one not acceptable? They are fundamentally saying the same thing, although one is worded more carefully.
The bolded makes no sense whatsoever. So if the Israeli State were to have a Tibetan monk as a Minister, it would be ok to compare it wholesale to Nazis? Is it predicated on a percentage?
What happens when Netanyahu fully embraces Orban as 'a friend of Israel', a man who speaks of actual, literal Nazis as 'great statesmen'? Or what happens when Netanyahu revises the Holocaust?
The more the arguments roll, the more convinced i get that this moderation policy was thought up without much care or reasoning.
While I understand the notion of not painting all isralies as being responsible for what the government does. Their hands aren't completely clean. A good portion of them put the government in power. And it's those same civilians are the ones living in those those settlements.
Just as Trump is a reflection of a big part of America. The Israeli gonverment is a reflection of the poeple who put them there.
Just as Trump is a reflection of a big part of America. The Israeli gonverment is a reflection of the poeple who put them there.
Hey guys, are you more interested in the actual story here, or in beating your heads against the only wall the mods have put up? Because all this complaining is doing is derailing the thread and distracting from the issues.
Now, to add some context to the article, it should be noted that yes, there is technically a process by which Palestinians could be granted permission to build on land in the West Bank. The BBC notes, however, that this is rare, while vaguely attributing this remark to some Palestinians and dropping the discussion. So, just how rare is it? Well, have a look for yourselves:
Less than two percent. Palestinians looking for places to live are basically damned if they do, damned if they don't when it comes to seeking out government permission. Of course, the Israeli government doesn't care about this. After all, while they already have a very lenient policy toward the Israeli settlements that encroach on Palestinian land, somehow the reverse is practically impracticable in the law's biased eyes. It only "makes sense" if such policies are taken as the preamble to outright displacement, including genocide, and annexation—and at this point, it's hard to see the current Israeli government's motives in a more positive light than that.
This maneuvering over building permits is completely transparent and craven, and if the Israeli courts don't force a more equitable interpretation of the law (and this case was a major litmus test), there's very little hope for the Palestinians barring a shift to a more liberal and tolerant Israeli government.
Now, to add some context to the article, it should be noted that yes, there is technically a process by which Palestinians could be granted permission to build on land in the West Bank. The BBC notes, however, that this is rare, while vaguely attributing this remark to some Palestinians and dropping the discussion. So, just how rare is it? Well, have a look for yourselves:
Less than two percent. Palestinians looking for places to live are basically damned if they do, damned if they don't when it comes to seeking out government permission. Of course, the Israeli government doesn't care about this. After all, while they already have a very lenient policy toward the Israeli settlements that encroach on Palestinian land, somehow the reverse is practically impracticable in the law's biased eyes. It only "makes sense" if such policies are taken as the preamble to outright displacement, including genocide, and annexation—and at this point, it's hard to see the current Israeli government's motives in a more positive light than that.
This maneuvering over building permits is completely transparent and craven, and if the Israeli courts don't force a more equitable interpretation of the law (and this case was a major litmus test), there's very little hope for the Palestinians barring a shift to a more liberal and tolerant Israeli government.
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Just a point of clarification, the bolded is not accurate; although underrepresented proportionally, Israeli citizens of Arabic background are employed in the public sector. Even if by "staffed" you mean elected members of the Knesset in the ruling coalition, there are a few Druze politicians among that number.
So we're to assume "Nazi" is a racial epithet or insult? Simple question, because that's what you are broadly saying.
A random decision would have been better, as those tend to naturally not make sense.
Well if it's decided to be a racial epithet it should be banned from use all togheter.
EDIT: It's not a racial epithet btw.
EDIT: It's not a racial epithet btw.
Yup the only way to use it as even remotely in the class of a racial epithet would be against a non genocidal German who happens to be strict or angry about something. Not when the direction of it's use is someone perpetrating genocide who should fucking not since a. It's genocide and b. Their own people experienced genocide.
Nazi as an epithet for a Jewish person is one of the most insane things I've ever heard. It's on the level of flat earthers/alternative facts level of nonsense.
So Nazi is a racial epithet now. I love how trying to justify a bad policy just makes things worse.
Yet this doesn't extend to actually protecting all Jewish individuals and is only inforced when Israel is the topic.
Makes the purpose behind it pretty clear.
Israel going full Fire Nation trying to eradicate the Air Nomads
Hope that's not too fucking on the nose
Hope that's not too fucking on the nose
Did I miss the info in WW2 documentaries where it clearly informed us about 100% of the country standing behind Hitler?
Did every civilian home have a micro-gasery, like Finish people do with saunas?
Because if not, your defence about "not all Israelis" falls flat on its face, shitting its pants in the process.
Your rule disgusts me.
Indeed. Seems all you need to do to be safe from being called a Nazi is to find yourself a job with the government of Israel and get on that ethnic cleansing.
The comparison clearly isn't helpful in as much as it is inappropriate. It's derailed this thread and all the ones before it. I know I've definitely made the comparison before when I've been emotional about it, thinking I'm comparing fascist regimes to others - but I can understand why the mods have taken their stance and I've been reflecting about it myself. And then Godwin's Law is a thing - because even with all of the Israeli government's atrocities and massive bag of bullshit - it's still nothing on the scale of Nazi atrocities. Nothing is. We managed to condemn Pol Pot and Pinochet without having to compare them to Nazis.
It's just kinda frustrating that these discussions devolve into a circus that distracts everyone from the main focus of Palestinian plight and Israeli apartheid.
It's just kinda frustrating that these discussions devolve into a circus that distracts everyone from the main focus of Palestinian plight and Israeli apartheid.
Israel is clearly an apartheid state. This is clearly ethnic cleansing. And every citizen of Israel not fighting these policies is complicit. As is every American Jew that donates to Israel and every American politician that does the bidding of AIPAC. It's time for civilized nations to divest from Israel like they did South Africa. Companies doing business with Israel should be boycotted. Politicians supporting Israeli actions should be tossed the fuck out, regardless of party.
I fucking hate Godwin's law. No, just because someone made something up on the internet doesn't mean it's real, or even valid in every kind of discussion. Sometimes evil things can be compared to nazism, because surprise! Nazis did those same exact things in a similar way (not necessarily same scale, of course), and it makes for an accurate comparison.
Invoking Godwin's law is such a cop out, both from people who want to discredit someone else's argument and those who feel uncomfortable thinking about it and would rather pretend bad things aren't happening.
Invoking Godwin's law is such a cop out, both from people who want to discredit someone else's argument and those who feel uncomfortable thinking about it and would rather pretend bad things aren't happening.
Careful in much of the west this makes you somehow both a Nazi and a terrorist while those terms are too mean for people doing the killing
I can only speak for myself. The part about the Nazi comparisons is the least of the problems with that wall of text. It effectively tries to stifle criticism of the people responsible for voting these policies in, while also bringing some both sides bullshit into the conversation that's worthy of the BoogieMan. As for the comparisons, i fully understand the why, i just think it's a very misguided and opaque attempt at tone policing the criticism of a fascist regime that gets worse and more murderous by the week. It's not helpful or beneficial to anyone and it sends a message that is pretty much the opposite of what is intended. It doesn't help when further attempts at clarification only muddy the water some more.
Here's the problem.
If i said there are a whole fucking lot of shitty people in Russia that agree with Putin's persecution of gay people, not a single mod would give me shit about it.
If i said there are a whole fucking lot of shitty people in the Philippines that agree with Duterte's persecution of political enemies, i wouldn't hear a word about it.
If i said there are a whole fucking lot of shitty people in the US that agree with all the vomit that comes out of Trump's mouth, most mods would agree with me.
But if i say there are a whole fucking lot of shitty people in Israel that agree with Netanyahu's extermination of the Palestinian people i'm risking a ban for 'conflating civilians with their leadership'.
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Guys guys it's ok prominent members have decided you can call jews in the trump admin nazi's but not jews in a party whose policy is ethnic cleansing.
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