Black Panther: Wakanda Forever is Now Available on US Disney+

Blader · Feb 2, 2023

It's pretty unwieldy and overstuffed -- the Ross/Val scenes are so easily cuttable and serve no function in the movie, the Namor/Talokan section is obviously essential to the plot but also slowed the pace to a crawl, and I felt like Riri could've been tied more closely into the central story than she is. It made me appreciate how much leaner and propulsive the first movie was.

BUT I really liked Shuri's arc (and performance), I thought it was really well drawn, it felt totally believable and organic as a response to both real-life and in-universe events. I came away so impressed that Coogler was able to stitch that together after losing the central star of the first film, something that should've otherwise broken this movie apart. It's crazy this arc about as a total accident because everything about it, especially down to the Killmonger guidance/parallel, fits so well you could've sworn it was planned. The Shuri/Ramonda stuff makes the movie for me.

Osahi said:
Apart from the grief-part it's thematically empty (which was probably the strongest part of the original, it was about something).

Well yes, if you remove the movie's central theme and focus, it would feel thematically empty!

StreetsAhead · Feb 2, 2023

I might be the only person who likes Iron Heart's suit.

I also don't mind the Ross and Val stuff. It directly ties into Namor's warning that the surface world will inevitably come for Wakanda, as confirmed in the scene where the US official talks about destabilizing the country. Presumably, all of this will play into Black Panther 3.

Blablurn · Feb 2, 2023

Solid movie

Fight on the sea looked terrible

Loved basically everything excepts the fights

BP vs Namor could have been cooler if they didnt switch back to the ship the whole time

Glad i didn't spend any money in the cinema on this one tho

SunKing · Feb 2, 2023

StreetsAhead said:
I might be the only person who likes Iron Heart's suit.

I also don't mind the Ross and Val stuff. It directly ties into Namor's warning that the surface world will inevitably come for Wakanda, as confirmed in the scene where the US official talks about destabilizing the country. Presumably, all of this will play into Black Panther 3.

Thank you. The Ross/Val scenes are there to prove that Namor is RIGHT. The other world powers are scheming sinister plots to destabilize Wakanda in the background the entire time (this is also the pint of the attack on the outreach center in Mali near the beginning of the film).

Flaurehn · Feb 2, 2023

StreetsAhead said:
I might be the only person who likes Iron Heart's suit.

I also don't mind the Ross and Val stuff. It directly ties into Namor's warning that the surface world will inevitably come for Wakanda, as confirmed in the scene where the US official talks about destabilizing the country. Presumably, all of this will play into Black Panther 3.

The suit and the little I saw of her character was really good, it just felt shoehorned.

As for the last part I want the big battle be resolved with Namor arriving like Gandalf taking everyone by surprise lol

Dragon Puncher · Feb 2, 2023

Mezentine said:
I actually really like the early scenes at the UN because there is something satisfying about just quickly reestablishing that the Wakandans are so far ahead in terms of technology and military that they really can just take a "fuck you" attitude to the rest of the global superpowers and they're untouchable and then the Talokans show up and do the exact same thing to them and we get to see how terrifying it is to be on the receiving end of that. But past that point all the stuff with Ross feels genuinely pointless and could be frankly cut entirely

Yeah, agreed. I like that scene and don't want to cut it. Instead of all the Ross scenes I'm just advocating for another UN scene, where Wakanda gets blamed for the attack on the bridge and the Queen suddenly doesn't seem so untouchable anymore since she is legit shock by everything that has happened with Namor.

Wally_Wall · Feb 2, 2023

Ehhh. Idk man... MCU doesn't do much for me anymore. Coming off Thor I expected more. I thought this was only marginally better than Love & Thunder and I thought that was surprisingly bad. We need the X-Men or Fantastic 4 soon because what we've been getting is average at best.

Koddas · Feb 2, 2023

Ooft, I wasn't expecting much given the circumstances the movie was filmed under but I didn't expect to come away disliking it as much as Thor L&T. Though it might just be a case of me losing interest in the MCU post-Endgame.

ShinJohnpv · Feb 2, 2023

I was really looking forward to this one. They did a great job with grief aspect, and paying respect to Chadwick. Everything else was a giant meh though. The whole conflict and push for the battle just felt completely forced to me. Nothing felt organic or legitimate about it. So many parts also felt like how did we get here from the previous scenes. Just kind of a big mess of a movie. Can we just get an M'Baku movie next time.

m_shortpants · Feb 2, 2023

Honestly, I kind of liked it. Definitely up there for the best of this phase, but that speaks more to everything else than this film.

Namor is great. Was rooting for him up until he attacked Wakanda, but even then the Queen/Nakia kind of caused that escalation by infiltrating Talokan and killing two people. His backstory was great, and I really love this Mesoamerican take on Namor. And like Killmonger in BP1, he's kind of right? It's confirmed every country is trying to destabilize Wakanda, that line from Ross about what America would do if it was in the position of Wakandas power was too real. Can't wait to ses Namor return in the MCU and get into shenanigans as he does.

I was hoping Shuri would die or just stand down as BP, just give it to Lupita or Winston so we can move on from Letitia.

Loved the moment of silence for Chadwick, and the potential for his future legacy. That made me emotional.

Overall 7/10.

CountAntonio · Feb 3, 2023

As good if not better than when I saw it in the theater. just a great movie.

pokeystaples · Feb 3, 2023

Little overlong and could have done without Freeman and JLD completely, but I liked it. Wish we'd had some more background in Riri before they snatched her.

Osahi · Feb 3, 2023

Blader said:
Well yes, if you remove the movie's central theme and focus, it would feel thematically empty!

Those themes aren't present in the main plot, nor do they drive it. It often feels disconnected from the rest of the movie, with the only sort of crossover being when Shuri takes on the mantle.

So yeah, you have a B-plot about grieving that works at times but feels a tad undercoocked, and a thematically empty A-plot.

Tathanen · Feb 3, 2023

Silent Chadwick logo opening ruined me again.

I think I liked the film more overall this time, since my expectations were properly in check, not that I hated it the first time or anything but I think I was slightly let down. On second watch I'm pretty into it and its various themes.

Post credits completely destroyed my life again.

Reinhard · Feb 3, 2023

Blablurn said:
Solid movie

Fight on the sea looked terrible

Loved basically everything excepts the fights

BP vs Namor could have been cooler if they didnt switch back to the ship the whole time

Glad i didn't spend any money in the cinema on this one tho

Fight at sea was horrible. The most advanced nation in the world and their plan to fight an underwater army was to stand on top of a large ship with spears / melee weapons for the most part?

Lifejumper · Feb 3, 2023

NookSports said:
The whole of America's intervention just felt unceremoniously dropped. There was a giant naval battle between Wakanda and Talokan with no eyes from any of the other militaries. And at the end Riri just "goes back home" like the FBI won't be looking for her?

Studio notes :p

Alexandros · Feb 3, 2023

Osahi said:
Those themes aren't present in the main plot, nor do they drive it. It often feels disconnected from the rest of the movie, with the only sort of crossover being when Shuri takes on the mantle.

So yeah, you have a B-plot about grieving that works at times but feels a tad undercoocked, and a thematically empty A-plot.

Don't you think you got your A and B plots mixed up there? What do you think the A-plot is?

Osahi · Feb 3, 2023

Alexandros said:
Don't you think you got your A and B plots mixed up there? What do you think the A-plot is?

The A-Plot is all the Namor-stuff. The big external conflict. The B-plot is Wakanda/Shuri grieving for T'Challa.

But it doesn't matter how you label them. It doesn't change a thing about how a huge chunk of this movie feels thematically empty and how both storylines don't thematically mix that well.

Alexandros · Feb 3, 2023

Osahi said:
The A-Plot is all the Namor-stuff. The big external conflict. The B-plot is Wakanda/Shuri grieving for T'Challa.

But it doesn't matter how you label them. It doesn't change a thing about how a huge chunk of this movie feels thematically empty and how both storylines don't thematically mix that well.

Hmm, I can't say I agree. In my opinion the film's A-plot is grief from losing a loved one and what it does to people as every major character in the film is hit by grief and it has a strong effect on their decisions. The B-plot is Wakanda's relations with the rest of the world and that part is a very clear continuation of Black Panther's theme of colonization and wars for precious resources.

Blablurn · Feb 3, 2023

Reinhard said:
Fight at sea was horrible. The most advanced nation in the world and their plan to fight an underwater army was to stand on top of a large ship with spears / melee weapons for the most part?

Hahaha, it's really ridiculous

Sloth Guevara · Feb 3, 2023

Liked everything except the main conflict that felt very forced tbh.

Osahi · Feb 3, 2023

Alexandros said:
Hmm, I can't say I agree. In my opinion the film's A-plot is grief from losing a loved one and what it does to people as every major character in the film is hit by grief and it has a strong effect on their decisions. The B-plot is Wakanda's relations with the rest of the world and that part is a very clear continuation of Black Panther's theme of colonization and wars for precious resources.

Like I said, it doesn't matter what's labeled as what. If I had to make a dramaturgical analysis, I'd call the Namor-stuff the A-plot and the grieving the B-plot.

And I don't agree the grief has a strong effect on their decisions at all. It's mostly contained to those scenes, and it's not linked all that much to the other storyline. Shuri doesn't need to overcome her grief to become BP for instance. She just needs to find the right key to synthesise the whatyacallit. You can feel they've tried to make it thematically stronger, with her pushing away tradition at first, and her anger with the world. But ultimately it's all so undercooked because the Namor-plot is not pushing and testing her enough (because it's so disconnected from the grief part untill the Queen dies at the second act break), so it never comes together in a satisfying way.

And yeah, the Namor-thing is still about colonisation and conflicts about resources. But it has nothing to say about it. There is no big internal conflict or dilemma attached to it. It's there on a surface level, but it's never truly explored. It's a subject, not a theme.

Reinhard said:
Fight at sea was horrible. The most advanced nation in the world and their plan to fight an underwater army was to stand on top of a large ship with spears / melee weapons for the most part?

Somewhere in the movie Martin Freeman (iirc) says something like 'we would be going to war with the most advanced military in the world!', and then the big battle is with one warship and a couple of helicopter thingies, lol.

Alexandros · Feb 3, 2023

Osahi said:
Like I said, it doesn't matter what's labeled as what. If I had to make a dramaturgical analysis, I'd call the Namor-stuff the A-plot and the grieving the B-plot.

And I don't agree the grief has a strong effect on their decisions at all. It's mostly contained to those scenes, and it's not linked all that much to the other storyline. Shuri doesn't need to overcome her grief to become BP for instance. She just needs to find the right key to synthesise the whatyacallit. You can feel they've tried to make it thematically stronger, with her pushing away tradition at first, and her anger with the world. But ultimately it's all so undercooked because the Namor-plot is not pushing and testing her enough (because it's so disconnected from the grief part untill the Queen dies at the second act break), so it never comes together in a satisfying way.

And yeah, the Namor-thing is still about colonisation and conflicts about resources. But it has nothing to say about it. There is no big internal conflict or dilemma attached to it. It's there on a surface level, but it's never truly explored. It's a subject, not a theme.

I strongly disagree with everything you wrote. I think it's not even close to representative of what the film actually did, the themes it explored and how it explored them.

I want to try and understand how you arrived at this conclusion so let's pick one small part of it and examine that. You say that the film has nothing to say about colonization and conflicts about resources. How would you handle it? What should the film have done for you to conclude that it did have something to say?

Osahi · Feb 3, 2023

Alexandros said:
I strongly disagree with everything you wrote. I think it's not even close to representative of what the film actually did, the themes it explored and how it explored them.

I want to try and understand how you arrived at this conclusion so let's pick one small part of it and examine that. You say that the film has nothing to say about colonization and conflicts about resources. How would you handle it? What should the film have done for you to conclude that it did have something to say?

Dude, I'm not going to write a treatment for you how I would've done. For one, those things take thought and iteration. I can only analyse what the film does and how it doesn't work. But maybe ask yourself: what does this movie say about colonisation. What is the core question it asks and what answer does it give to that question? What's the thematic conclusion to the story?

I can't come up with any other answer than that it tells us 'colonisation is bad actually' which, yeah, duh. The film never really challenge the protagonist about it, doesn't really explore it's subject in a meaninfull way to come to a conclusion about it, has no real dillemma at its core tied to it. It's Namor wanting to go scorched earth on the surface world to keep themselves safe, and Wakanda saying nope (of course). There is no revelation here, no growth for the protagonist in terms of this theme, ... It basically has nothing to say.

JayCB64 · Feb 3, 2023

I loved this movie, I'm excited to watch it again (As soon as I mentally prepare myself for that intro)

StreetsAhead said:
I might be the only person who likes Iron Heart's suit.

I like it alot too, felt very Metroidy.

CloudWolf · Feb 3, 2023

Reinhard said:
Fight at sea was horrible. The most advanced nation in the world and their plan to fight an underwater army was to stand on top of a large ship with spears / melee weapons for the most part?

Yeah lol, the ending battle of the first Black Panther was bad, but with this movie they really went "How can we make this somehow worse?".

I like how the final fight in Avatar: The Way of Water unintentionally kinda feels like a criticism on the final confrontation in Wakanda Forever. Like, it's pretty much the exact same setup, only reversed (the heroes are the underwater people, the villains decided to bring a big boat and a single gunship) and it shows exactly how poorly such a fight would go for the people on the boat.

McNum said:
Watched it yesterday, it was pretty good. Though I was distracted a bit by the image quality. Was it just on my TV or does this movie have a messed up black-level? The darkest color is a dark grey, making the entire movie look muddy and unclear. Especially the underwater parts.

This is just how the movie looks. It looked like this in the cinema as well.

It's why I'm baffled when I see people saying this movie looks beautiful. I'm like "Did they watch a different movie? The one I watched looked dark and muddy as shit."

Shemhazai said:
Honestly their inclusion just felt like they decided they couldn't release a movie without some white people in for people to identify with. They were so pointless. Like, at least Riri was there to show her off for Armour Wars (which I don't think they did a very good job selling if I'm being honest, she needed far more time spent developing her and this was emphatically not the movie for that).

I don't think "we need white people" was the reason for it, or maybe it was, but it's not the main reason.

The main reason is obviously because just like Ironheart's inclusion it's MCU worldbuilding. Val and Ross will play important roles in upcoming MCU project (Thunderbolts, Secret Invasion) and probably the US's search for Vibranium or an alternative (Adamantium? Something else?) will play a big role in these movies/shows, so this was setting that up.

It is one of my biggest criticisms with this movie. Where the first Black Panther really stood on its own. Sure, it had ties into Civil War and Age of Ultron obviously, but not watching those movies didn't make you lose any vital information in BP, nor did it go out of its way to set up future MCU projects. Meanwhile, this movie has two plotlines (Riri & Val/Ross) that don't really serve any other purpose than "These are characters and story beats that will be further explored in future installments of the MCU".

S1kkZ · Feb 3, 2023

i did not expect this movie to be more of a mess than love & thunder.

- for all the hype surrounding angela basset, i expected her to have a lot more screentime? she is fantastic but there is not enough of her.
- winston duke is the mvp but also heavily underused.
- the whole movie looks "off". the weird depth of field effect, awful cg & compositing, cheap looking sets etc. bp1 had some awful cg shots but this? it looked awful to me, most of the time. and what was that shitty depth of field thing? was that added in post? pretty sure the trailers didnt have it.
- the imax version looked really off on d+, movie looked a lot better to me in the standard format (its usually the other way around).
- story structure and editing are messy. aside from the early car chase, all of the action was badly shot and edited. i had no idea wtf was going on during that ship battle at the end.
- wakanda does not feel like a place in this. a cheap looking market/harbor set and tons of cg.
- namor was fantastic.
- agent ross should have been removed from the film.
- soundtrack was fantastic.

5/10 and easily the worst mcu film of 2022 (to me). bp1 was a 9/10.

akintheuite · Feb 3, 2023

Blablurn said:
Hahaha, it's really ridiculous

So true. By and large, I was pretty disappointed in the movie. The CGI was not really good, the plot has way too many holes, and the fight choreography did not stand up to scrutiny; happy I did not waste my time seeing this in the cinema.

Alexandros · Feb 3, 2023

Osahi said:
Dude, I'm not going to write a treatment for you how I would've done. For one, those things take thought and iteration. I can only analyse what the film does and how it doesn't work. But maybe ask yourself: what does this movie say about colonisation. What is the core question it asks and what answer does it give to that question? What's the thematic conclusion to the story?

I can't come up with any other answer than that it tells us 'colonisation is bad actually' which, yeah, duh. The film never really challenge the protagonist about it, doesn't really explore it's subject in a meaninfull way to come to a conclusion about it, has no real dillemma at its core tied to it. It's Namor wanting to go scorched earth on the surface world to keep themselves safe, and Wakanda saying nope (of course). There is no revelation here, no growth for the protagonist in terms of this theme, ... It basically has nothing to say.

No problem, I completely understand that you might not be so willing to write a detailed opinion on a franchise you seem to have largely settled on a general position on. I am quite happy to elaborate on my own opinion. I will first tackle the colonization aspect since that is what I asked you to comment on and then once we explore that we can touch on the grief aspect. I'll put the whole thing in spoilers just in case. Here goes:

The biggest issue that I have noticed with traditional film fans trying to critique MCU films is that most of them haven't yet reconciled with the fact that the MCU's films aren't standalone. They still try to fit those films within the framework of what they think is the 'proper' way to construct a film.

As I mentioned in a previous post, colonization and the war about power and resources is a clear theme of the film alongside grief and the way we process it. The movie explores it by asking a very specific question (it is literally spelled out by Namor, which is why I was very surprised by the claim that the plot is thematically empty): Was T'Challa's decision to open up Wakanda to the world the correct one? Can you actually be on friendly terms with the "colonizers" or are they always going to be gunning for you?

Essentially, through both the Val and Ross sequences (that people stranglely claim should have been cut) and Namor and Talokan, the film is very clearly relitigating the conclusion of the previous one in the series. After T'Challa decided at the end of Black Panther that waging war on the rest of the world (as Killmonger wanted) isn't the right thing to do and instead he reached out to the other countries to try to help them, the film is asking whether or not that was the right call to make. On one hand we see the peaceful life that Talokan has had while being completely isolated from the outside world, on the other hand we see the other nations scheming to plunder Wakanda's resources. Did T'Challa make a mistake in having faith in people? We'll find out along the line.

NunezL · Feb 3, 2023

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but having Namor whole origin story being that his land was invaded by spanish conquistador and his desire to avenge his people and then having every underwater scene accompanied by spanish RnB felt very insensitive.

Xavillin · Feb 3, 2023

I watched this on my S21 Ultra, and it was kinda shit. I liked the movie enough that I might want to get the 4K Blu-ray for this if it gets fixed there.

Ramonda's scenes were so freaking good. Acted her ass off, and I felt it. Shuri was good too, and her last scene plus the Rihanna song made hit me right in the feels. It's just too bad her actress is anti-vax, because I would have been more than fine with her in BP3 after this movie if she wasn't. Namor wasn't as much of an asshole like I thought, but this was just his first appearance and he didn't have much characters to do that with. Maybe he'll become a home-wrecker after the F4 gets their debut movie.

PS why did M'Baku go on the waterfall to fight for the throne? Wouldn't the person he need to fight for the throne be Shuri? WTF?

Legacy · Feb 3, 2023

Watching tonight with the wife, first time for her. Can't wait!

Richiek · Feb 3, 2023

Xavillin said:
PS why did M'Baku go on the waterfall to fight for the throne? Wouldn't the person he need to fight for the throne be Shuri? WTF?

Shuri gave up the right to the throne, so it's heavily implied that M'baku will become king.

Osahi · Feb 3, 2023

Alexandros said:
No problem, I completely understand that you might not be so willing to write a detailed opinion on a franchise you seem to have largely settled on a general position on. I am quite happy to elaborate on my own opinion. I will first tackle the colonization aspect since that is what I asked you to comment on and then once we explore that we can touch on the grief aspect. I'll put the whole thing in spoilers just in case. Here goes:

The biggest issue that I have noticed with traditional film fans trying to critique MCU films is that most of them haven't yet reconciled with the fact that the MCU's films aren't standalone. They still try to fit those films within the framework of what they think is the 'proper' way to construct a film.

As I mentioned in a previous post, colonization and the war about power and resources is a clear theme of the film alongside grief and the way we process it. The movie explores it by asking a very specific question (it is literally spelled out by Namor, which is why I was very surprised by the claim that the plot is thematically empty): Was T'Challa's decision to open up Wakanda to the world the correct one? Can you actually be on friendly terms with the "colonizers" or are they always going to be gunning for you?

Essentially, through both the Val and Ross sequences (that people stranglely claim should have been cut) and Namor and Talokan, the film is very clearly relitigating the conclusion of the previous one in the series. After T'Challa decided at the end of Black Panther that waging war on the rest of the world (as Killmonger wanted) isn't the right thing to do and instead he reached out to the other countries to try to help them, the film is asking whether or not that was the right call to make. On one hand we see the peaceful life that Talokan has had while being completely isolated from the outside world, on the other hand we see the other nations scheming to plunder Wakanda's resources. Did T'Challa make a mistake in having faith in people? We'll find out along the line.

Yeah, no. There is no 'jail free' card because this is a franchise that keeps going, especially as this is not a series that is known to explore themes across films to begin with. (The whole 'this is one big story' is seriously overrated. They are not written like that at all) We've discussed before how I feel the universe-idea is often hurting the stories of these movies, and now you argue that the lack of a good theme in WF is okay because it's a universe and it might get resolved or explored later on?

These films, Wakanda Forever included, follow a traditional film structure and all of them (unless when they are a two-parter up like IW and Endgame, and even then) tell full, singular stories with a beginning, middle and end. So you can perfectly criticise them as if they are 'regular' movies. Because they are.

But going to the film itself. You were able to find a thematic question. If you don't care to formulate an answer on the thematic question you ask, or at least explore different sides of that question, you do not explore or develop your theme. If it doesn't at least make your protagonist doubt their own world view and stance, force them to change. Then all you have is a subject. You don't have a theme. Ultimately you are not really asking that question to begin with, because it's not a question that drives the internal conflict of the main character or forces her to (re)act. I don't remember all that much of the first BP, which I saw only once back in 2018, but I remember the theme of oppression and colonisation actually having echo's of actual events and situations, and being concluded with a clear choice and stance of the main character: opening Wakanda up and helping colonised nation.

SunKing · Feb 3, 2023

Forever judging anyone who says this was worse than Thor L&T.

Blader · Feb 3, 2023

Osahi said:
Those themes aren't present in the main plot, nor do they drive it. It often feels disconnected from the rest of the movie, with the only sort of crossover being when Shuri takes on the mantle.

So yeah, you have a B-plot about grieving that works at times but feels a tad undercoocked, and a thematically empty A-plot.

Grief is *the* driving element of the story. Shuri's grief and anger over T'Challa's death and then her mother's death informs everything from her drive to protect Riri to her taking counsel from Killmonger to becoming Black Panther and seeking revenge against Namor. "The only sort of crossover being when Shuri takes on the mantle" -- that's not some tangential aside, it's the climax of the movie! It's what the whole thing is building to, and the final battle spills out the way it does from that moment. If you remove grief from this story, you lose many of the most important plot points and character beats. Shuri's arc is the focal point of the film and it's an arc that hinges around her grief.

If it doesn't work for you then it doesn't work for you, but grief is not some minor incidental thing that has little relevance to the plot. If you take away the grief element, you don't have a movie. It is objectively the theme of the film!

Osahi · Feb 3, 2023

Blader said:
Grief is *the* driving element of the story. Shuri's grief and anger over T'Challa's death and then her mother's death informs everything from her drive to protect Riri to her taking counsel from Killmonger to becoming Black Panther and seeking revenge against Namor. "The only sort of crossover being when Shuri takes on the mantle" -- that's not some tangential aside, it's the climax of the movie! It's what the whole thing is building to, and the final battle spills out the way it does from that moment. If you remove grief from this story, you lose many of the most important plot points and character beats. Shuri's arc is the focal point of the film and it's an arc that hinges around her grief.

If it doesn't work for you then it doesn't work for you, but grief is not some minor incidental thing that has little relevance to the plot. If you take away the grief element, you don't have a movie. It is objectively the theme of the film!

And its objectively not thematically tied to the Namor-plot. I don't believe that the grieving theme is well tied to her becoming Black Panther to begin with either. It's a key of her arc sure, but her overcoming her grief is not in a meaningfull way driven by the main Namor-plot or external conflict. Those really feel like they are standing next to each other. If you take out Shuri grieving you lose her personal litlle arc, but the whole Namor-stuff can just be told basically the same way without losing a thing.

Anyway, lets agree to disagree. I'm not feeling like doing a beat per beat analysis of the story, which would mean I'd need to rewatch it too, which for the love of God I have no intention to do, haha.

Sento · Feb 3, 2023

Decent movie but a bit messy and long.

Angela Bassett was phenomenal

Blader · Feb 3, 2023

Osahi said:
And its objectively not thematically tied to the Namor-plot. I don't believe that the grieving theme is well tied to her becoming Black Panther to begin with either.

Shuri's anger and desire for revenge for her mother, who was killed by Namor, has nothing to do with the Namor plot? Becoming Black Panther or trying to recreate the heart-shaped herb in the first place has nothing to do with her brother or mother's deaths? ok.

Shuri is the main character of the movie. Her "personal little arc" is the spine of the story.

Doran · Feb 3, 2023

It was good, like a 6.5 - 7 / 10 for me.

I might be bored with modern comic book movies though. There is potentially an alternate universe where I saw this movie without seeing 25 other movies and shows before it with a similar flavor and thought it was a masterpiece for the superhero genre.

Tomasoares · Feb 3, 2023

I enjoyed the film a lot, although the final fight was bad and lacking creativity (definitely rushed)

FRANKEINSTEIN · Feb 3, 2023

Watched it last night. It was alright. Definitely the best looking of the phase 4 movies. I didn't care much for Namor, or vengeful Shuri , or the queen. I liked Riri and Okoye is still a bad ass. Definitely should have cut Ross and Valentina.

the mid credit sequence was just a 🙄

At least for me.

Alexandros · Feb 3, 2023

Osahi said:
Yeah, no. There is no 'jail free' card because this is a franchise that keeps going, especially as this is not a series that is known to explore themes across films to begin with. (The whole 'this is one big story' is seriously overrated. They are not written like that at all) We've discussed before how I feel the universe-idea is often hurting the stories of these movies, and now you argue that the lack of a good theme in WF is okay because it's a universe and it might get resolved or explored later on?

These films, Wakanda Forever included, follow a traditional film structure and all of them (unless when they are a two-parter up like IW and Endgame, and even then) tell full, singular stories with a beginning, middle and end. So you can perfectly criticise them as if they are 'regular' movies. Because they are.

But going to the film itself. You were able to find a thematic question. If you don't care to formulate an answer on the thematic question you ask, or at least explore different sides of that question, you do not explore or develop your theme. If it doesn't at least make your protagonist doubt their own world view and stance, force them to change. Then all you have is a subject. You don't have a theme. Ultimately you are not really asking that question to begin with, because it's not a question that drives the internal conflict of the main character or forces her to (re)act. I don't remember all that much of the first BP, which I saw only once back in 2018, but I remember the theme of oppression and colonisation actually having echo's of actual events and situations, and being concluded with a clear choice and stance of the main character: opening Wakanda up and helping colonised nation.

As I said, some film fans are having a very hard time with it. In any case, despite your original claim, the film has a central theme, a secondary theme and it explores both. Maybe not to your satisfaction, although I would argue that this is more of an issue with your own expectations and preconceived notions rather than any actual issue with the film itself.

Pai Pai Master · Feb 3, 2023

Fucking love this movie so much. Gonna watch the T'Challa trilogy this weekend (Civil War, Black Panther, Wakanda Forever)

CloudWolf · Feb 3, 2023

A problem I have with the idea that the central question of the film is "Did T'Challa make the right call in opening Wakanda up?" is that there's no real sense in any of the MCU movies following Black Panther (which includes Wakanda Forever) that Wakanda actually opened up. Like, what did they do? How did they open up? At the end of Black Panther they build one youth center and as far as we can tell, that's it.

- They didn't share Vibranium with other countries, because this is what the UN scene is about.
- They have international research centers, but as far as we can see in the film these only employ Wakandans (and are being kept in total secret).
- They didn't share their vast, groundbreaking medical tech.
- Nor did they share their communication tech.
- Wakanda is still isolated and hidden, people aren't going on Wakandan holidays or what have you.

Nakia built a school in Haiti to help the people there, but did so on her own without Wakandan support or knowledge. So this question 'Did T'Challa make the right call?' falls completely flat as we have no idea what has actually been done in that regard. As far as we know, the UN is totally in the right in criticising Ramonda that Wakanda didn't keep their promise.

The weird thing is, the film totally has a perfect lead-in for introducing what Wakanda has done for (black) communities. Riri Williams could've been a student at some Wakanda-led school. She could've been part of their outreach programme and that could've given us a look in what Wakanda has achieved since the first film. But nope, she's just a student at MIT that has nothing to do with Wakandan people until this movie.

Deleted member 6263 · Feb 3, 2023

oh nice, I'll be watching this weekend

Osahi · Feb 3, 2023

Alexandros said:
As I said, some film fans are having a very hard time with it. In any case, despite your original claim, the film has a central theme, a secondary theme and it explores both. Maybe not to your satisfaction, although I would argue that this is more of an issue with your own expectations and preconceived notions rather than any actual issue with the film itself.

This is not a 'some film fans' problem, lol. I feel like you're making excuses to not adres the actual criticism. Maybe MCU fans put more stock in the 'cinematic universe' idea than it's worth, because if you analyse the whole series as 'one big story' you'll quickly find out it isn't one. Like I said, 'but its a universe and the story continues' is absolutely no jail free card. These are films like any other, that tell a story in three acts. Wakanda Forever does not in any way meaniful explore the themeof colonisation, and 'maybe they'll adress it in the next one' is not an excuse whatsoever. And even if they somehow did in the next one and actually have a character arc and take a clear stance, it would not retroactively make it so that WF explored that theme. No, that next series or film will have done so.

Blader said:
Shuri's anger and desire for revenge for her mother, who was killed by Namor, has nothing to do with the Namor plot? Becoming Black Panther or trying to recreate the heart-shaped herb in the first place has nothing to do with her brother or mother's deaths? ok.

Shuri is the main character of the movie. Her "personal little arc" is the spine of the story.

You can do an easy excersise. If you cut out the grief aspect of Shuri, would the Namor-plot still go through the same beats? Well, I'd say yes. She isn't forced to (re)act because she is grieving and grief isn't really holding her back. Basically the Namor-plot is Namor proposing a deal to Wakanda they must refuse, attacking Wakanda and thus forcing them to react. The Queen could be left alive and it would've gone through the same beats. T'Challa might've been alive and it would've played out very similary. Because the Namor-plot is not built around the theme of grief, nor are Shuri's actions and decisions for the most part of that plot driven by her grief. The movie does not use Namor to explore her grief or to force her to overcome it.

The fact that by the end grief is basically replaced by a wish for revenge to be able to have some final act growth kind of tells it all imo.

DirtyLarry · Feb 3, 2023

I must be really easy to please these days (based on some of the comments in this thread) as I fucking loved it and literally the only thing that bothered me is I did not see it in the theater as the length and the time it was released around my anniversary then the holidays just made it very hard to get to the theater.

Alexandros · Feb 3, 2023

CloudWolf said:
A problem I have with the idea that the central question of the film is "Did T'Challa make the right call in opening Wakanda up?" is that there's no real sense in any of the MCU movies following Black Panther (which includes Wakanda Forever) that Wakanda actually opened up. Like, what did they do? How did they open up? At the end of Black Panther they build one youth center and as far as we can tell, that's it.

- They didn't share Vibranium with other countries, because this is what the UN scene is about.
- They have international research centers, but as far as we can see in the film these only employ Wakandans (and are being kept in total secret).
- They didn't share their vast, groundbreaking medical tech.
- Nor did they share their communication tech.
- Wakanda is still isolated and hidden, people aren't going on Wakandan holidays or what have you.

Nakia built a school in Haiti to help the people there, but did so on her own without Wakandan support or knowledge. So this question 'Did T'Challa make the right call?' falls completely flat as we have no idea what has actually been done in that regard. As far as we know, the UN is totally in the right in criticising Ramonda that Wakanda didn't keep their promise.

The weird thing is, the film totally has a perfect lead-in for introducing what Wakanda has done for (black) communities. Riri Williams could've been a student at some Wakanda-led school. She could've been part of their outreach programme and that could've given us a look in what Wakanda has achieved since the first film. But nope, she's just a student at MIT that has nothing to do with Wakandan people until this movie.

If you remember the ending of the first Black Panther, in the after-credits scene T'Challa made a declaration in front of the UN in which he revealed the true status of Wakanda to the world and calling for "looking after one another as if were one single tribe".

In the last scene of the previous film we saw T'Challa using Wakanda's resources to help youth as you correctly pointed out. Between the last Black Panther film and this one Infinity War happened, a battle in which Wakanda was the last line of defence for the entire world. In the new film we see an example of wakandan outreach centers. You are right that we don't know more details about the full extent to which Wakanda kept its promise, I suspect will get more details in the Wakanda series that is planned.

I know that traditional film fans really hate this sort of answer and I get it, I really do, but they have to come to terms with it. Themes and plot lines being continued in other films and series is a feature, not a bug.

Pai Pai Master · Feb 3, 2023

Osahi said:
This is not a 'some film fans' problem, lol. I feel like you're making excuses to not adres the actual criticism. Maybe MCU fans put more stock in the 'cinematic universe' idea than it's worth, because if you analyse the whole series as 'one big story' you'll quickly find out it isn't one. Like I said, 'but its a universe and the story continues' is absolutely no jail free card. These are films like any other, that tell a story in three acts. Wakanda Forever does not in any way meaniful explore the themeof colonisation, and 'maybe they'll adress it in the next one' is not an excuse whatsoever. And even if they somehow did in the next one and actually have a character arc and take a clear stance, it would not retroactively make it so that WF explored that theme. No, that next series or film will have done so.

How is there no theme of colonization in the movie? It's the defining motivation of the main villain as shown from his childhood, and he wants to team up with Shuri to prevent the outside world from interfering in both Talokan's and Wakanda's affairs. Shuri even begins to side with him until a Talokan woman killed by her own ally and Namor goes to the extreme and murders her mother to force her hand. Valentina is included in the movie specifically to serve this theme, to show that Namor's fears about the international community are not unfounded - they want to take advantage of Wakanda's vulnerability and Namor knows it. The entire movie, Namor is grieving for what is to become of his people and doesn't want them to have to change their way of life, and believes Wakanda was wrong for what T'Challa was attempting to do in opening it up to the world.

If you are looking for something significantly deeper you're looking at the wrong franchise, these are superhero stories first and foremost. And that's totally fine if you don't feel like it's enough for you.

The fact that by the end grief is basically replaced by a wish for revenge to be able to have some final act growth kind of tells it all imo.

You're completely ignoring the fact that Shuri was almost blinded by a need to avenge her mother, but her conversation with Killmonger helped her connect with what Ramonda was telling her earlier in the movie about how to properly grieve someone. In her growth and by actually processing her grief she honors T'Challa by choosing not to kill Namor in the same way he didn't kill Zemo - she was able to look past the loss itself and remember the best of her brother. Her grief wasn't replaced at all, the final scene of the movie (pre-stinger) is her still sitting down with her feelings and processing T'Challa's loss in a more healthy way than before.

Xavillin said:
PS why did M'Baku go on the waterfall to fight for the throne? Wouldn't the person he need to fight for the throne be Shuri? WTF?

He showed to basically proclaim himself king because he knew Shuri wasn't going to be there. They may have had a conversation off-screen about it. I doubt anyone would argue with him about being the right leader for Wakanda for the time being.

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