Black Panther: Wakanda Forever is Now Available on US Disney+

[CloudWolf]

If you remember the ending of the first Black Panther, in the after-credits scene T'Challa made a declaration in front of the UN in which he revealed the true status of Wakanda to the world and calling for "looking after one another as if were one single tribe".

In the last scene of the previous film we saw T'Challa using Wakanda's resources to help youth as you correctly pointed out. Between the last Black Panther film and this one Infinity War happened, a battle in which Wakanda was the last line of defence for the entire world. In the new film we see an example of wakandan outreach centers. You are right that we don't know more details about the full extent to which Wakanda kept its promise, I suspect will get more details in the Wakanda series that is planned.

I know that traditional film fans really hate this sort of answer and I get it, I really do, but they have to come to terms with it. Themes and plot lines being continued in other films and series is a feature, not a bug.

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Why are you making this distinction between 'traditional film fans' and 'MCU film fans', the MCU movies are traditional films lol. What you're describing is how simply how sequels and spin-offs have worked for decades.

Anyway, I think you are misrepresenting the battle of Infinity War in favour of the argument that Wakanda somehow is a world protector. The battle in Infinity War isn't set there because Wakanda is the 'last line of defense for the entire world', it's because in-story it's the only place where Vision can go because only Wakanda has the tech to remove the Mind Stone (which ironically falls in line with my original remark that Wakanda clearly didn't share their knowledge). They don't lead the enemies to Wakanda because of morality or the idea that they are the world's last line of defense, the battle happens there because that's where our heroes happen to be at that moment.

Also, the framing of the final battle as 'the last line of defense for the fate of the universe' feels a bit strange even if it's technically true considering how much the movie kind of undersells the gravitas of the battle. Like, outside of the people being at the battle nobody is seemingly even aware that there's an invasion happening. The few people we have seen getting snapped were just going about their regular day.

 

[Alexandros]

This is not a 'some film fans' problem, lol.

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Yes, it is. It really is. One of the more common complaints of people that don't like the MCU is that its structure resembles that of a TV series with each project feeding into the next. I agree with this sort of criticism because as I said above, it's a feature, not a bug and you either like it (as I do) or you don't. I completely understand why film fans dislike it as it goes against the traditional standalone nature of films but it is integral to the MCU.

I feel like you're making excuses to not address the actual criticism. Maybe MCU fans put more stock in the 'cinematic universe' idea than it's worth, because if you analyse the whole series as 'one big story' you'll quickly find out it isn't one. Like I said, 'but its a universe and the story continues' is absolutely no jail free card. These are films like any other, that tell a story in three acts. Wakanda Forever does not in any way meaniful explore the themeof colonisation, and 'maybe they'll adress it in the next one' is not an excuse whatsoever. And even if they somehow did in the next one and actually have a character arc and take a clear stance, it would not retroactively make it so that WF explored that theme. No, that next series or film will have done so.

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Let me be clear then in addressing the criticism: it is false. I won't comment on if the film comments on its themes with enough depth as that is highly subjective but claiming that it doesn't have any themes or its plot is empty is so blatantly untrue that I would be surprised if you find a single person here that agrees with you, even among people who hate the MCU.

As for themes and plotlines extending into different MCU projects, I can't force you to accept reality. You have your own way of looking at things and that's that.

 

[CherryWoodFuton]

I love this movie and it saddens me that it doesn't get the respect it deserves especially in this thread

 

[Alexandros]

Why are you making this distinction between 'traditional film fans' and 'MCU film fans', the MCU movies are traditional films lol. What you're describing is how simply how sequels and spin-offs have worked for decades.

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That is a good question. In my mind, the defining characteristic of film is that it tells a complete story from beginning to end. The MCU doesn't work like that anymore, it hasn't since the beginning of phase one since back then it wasn't yet clear if the franchise would continue. The way I see it, the MCU resembles a serialized TV show where you get a smaller complete plot in every episode but the overarching story and various threads are being developed through multiple "episodes". It is no surprise to me that fans of standalone films would not be fans of that approach. So to answer your question, for me MCU films aren't quite normal films from that point of view.

I didn't quote the rest of your post because I can't really disagree with it, it's a matter of interpretation and yours is valid. The way I see it, Wakanda taking in Vision and being willing to help him and protect him is part of the effort to open up Wakanda to the world. If you recall, Okoye even comments on it sarcastically as they are getting ready to welcome Cap and co with the "Olympics and Starbucks" line. This is the sort of thing that I like talking about because it is very interesting to read different opinions on it.

 

[XenodudeX]

Man some of the reactions are kinda killing the will to watch it lol. I'll definitely watch it eventually, but I'm kinda of afraid I might not like it.

 

[Richiek]

Man some of the reactions are kinda killing the will to watch it lol. I'll definitely watch it eventually, but I'm kinda of afraid I might not like it.

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I love this movie and it saddens me that it doesn't get the respect it deserves especially in this thread

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Drive by negative reactions are par for the course for every MCU thread in OT.

 

[theMrCravens]

Man some of the reactions are kinda killing the will to watch it lol. I'll definitely watch it eventually, but I'm kinda of afraid I might not like it.

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Every MCU movies are fun and worth to watch. Black Panther 2 is fun.
Its just people deciding which to put on top of the pedestal in these threads.

MCU series though... avoid them alllllll.

 

[Alexandros]

MCU series though... avoid them alllllll.

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It's true that several of the series are uneven but I would generally say that they are all worth a watch because they all have cool things in them and the time investment required is relatively small. For example, Falcon and Winter Soldier and Ms Marvel share the same issue of severely undercooked and uninteresting villains but both shows have some solid to genuinely great character work.

 

[Osahi]

How is there no theme of colonization in the movie? It's the defining motivation of the main villain as shown from his childhood, and he wants to team up with Shuri to prevent the outside world from interfering in both Talokan's and Wakanda's affairs. Shuri even begins to side with him until a Talokan woman killed by her own ally and Namor goes to the extreme and murders her mother to force her hand. Valentina is included in the movie specifically to serve this theme, to show that Namor's fears about the international community are not unfounded - they want to take advantage of Wakanda's vulnerability and Namor knows it. The entire movie, Namor is grieving for what is to become of his people and doesn't want them to have to change their way of life, and believes Wakanda was wrong for what T'Challa was attempting to do in opening it up to the world.

If you are looking for something significantly deeper you're looking at the wrong franchise, these are superhero stories first and foremost. And that's totally fine if you don't feel like it's enough for you.

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Colonisation is a subject in this film, not a theme. It has nothing tangible to say about colonisation, doesn't ask nor answers a real question about it to explore it as a theme. It's a background, nothing more.

I'm not looking for something deep. It's a blockbuster. But I'm looking for something.

You're completely ignoring the fact that Shuri was almost blinded by a need to avenge her mother, but her conversation with Killmonger helped her connect with what Ramonda was telling her earlier in the movie about how to properly grieve someone. In her growth and by actually processing her grief she honors T'Challa by choosing not to kill Namor in the same way he didn't kill Zemo - she was able to look past the loss itself and remember the best of her brother. Her grief wasn't replaced at all, the final scene of the movie (pre-stinger) is her still sitting down with her feelings and processing T'Challa's loss in a more healthy way than before.

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Which all only comes in to play at the second act break, and by killing another character for her to grief over. Then it turns into an exploration of the want for revenge.

In my very first post in this topic i said the only thing I kind of liked about this film was the grief aspect, as that was the only one that works. But for a huge part of the film it's separated from the main plot about Namor.

Yes, it is. It really is. One of the more common complaints of people that don't like the MCU is that its structure resembles that of a TV series with each project feeding into the next. I agree with this sort of criticism because as I said above, it's a feature, not a bug and you either like it (as I do) or you don't. I completely understand why film fans dislike it as it goes against the traditional standalone nature of films but it is integral to the MCU.

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It's not. It's a really weak defense. Because no, this series does NOT resemble a tv series. It's a series of basically stand-alone films with cross-overs and sequels. The critique people have is that it wastes time on setting stuff up for different films that have little or nothing to do with the film at hand, and that it feels unfocussed. The other critique some have is that it reverts itself constantly to keep going, which is something that more sequels suffer from (pushing the same character through similar arcs or having them regain the same flaw they overcame before).

If I would indulge you and say, okay, it's a feature, you can still critique that feature because it sure as hell is flawed as fuck and leads to weak storytelling.

Let me be clear then in addressing the criticism: it is false. I won't comment on if the film comments on its themes with enough depth as that is highly subjective but claiming that it doesn't have any themes or its plot is empty is so blatantly untrue that I would be surprised if you find a single person here that agrees with you, even among people who hate the MCU.

As for themes and plotlines extending into different MCU projects, I can't force you to accept reality. You have your own way of looking at things and that's that.

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I'll ask you again: what does Wakanda Forever actually say about colonialism. What is the answer on the question you believes it asks? What is the stance it takes? Because that's what the theme will be. If you have to say 'it will be resolved and answered somewhere in the future' you basically say: Wakanda Forever doesn't have this as a theme. And then you can ask, what's the point of this plot if 1. it has nothing to say and 2. doesn't really meaninfully tie into or drive the one theme (grief) this movie does have.

 

[CloudWolf]

That is a good question. In my mind, the defining characteristic of film is that it tells a complete story from beginning to end. The MCU doesn't work like that anymore, it hasn't since the beginning of phase one since back then it wasn't yet clear if the franchise would continue. The way I see it, the MCU resembles a serialized TV show where you get a smaller complete plot in every episode but the overarching story and various threads are being developed through multiple "episodes". It is no surprise to me that fans of standalone films would not be fans of that approach. So to answer your question, for me MCU films aren't quite normal films from that point of view.

I didn't quote the rest of your post because I can't really disagree with it, it's a matter of interpretation and yours is valid. The way I see it, Wakanda taking in Vision and being willing to help him and protect him is part of the effort to open up Wakanda to the world. If you recall, Okoye even comments on it sarcastically as they are getting ready to welcome Cap and co with the "Olympics and Starbucks" line. This is the sort of thing that I like talking about because it is very interesting to read different opinions on it.

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See, I think this interconnectiveness, especially post-Endgame, isn't something that strengthens the MCU anymore as much. In fact, I think it's really starting to weaken how certain movies are able to handle their ideas and concepts and now that the MCU has been let more loose you can see more and more how things just simply don't add up.

Take for instance the Eternals. Now, there are many things in Eternals that are headscratchers from a MCU lore-perspective, but there's one thing I'd like to point out because it is of direct relevance to Wakanda Forever. In Eternals, we see Barry Keoghan break with the Eternals over Spanish colonisation of the Americas. He can't stand by and do nothing, so he walks away and vows to use his immense powers to stop the conquistadors... except he doesn't because for Namor's backstory it's important that the Spanish colonisation of the Americas happened like it did in our human history so his big statement to help the natives of Central America was limited to one village.

And there are all kinds of weird cracks in the continuity like this showing up throughout the MCU. Like, how in Dr. Strange it's explained that magic is real, but it's kind of like a weird science that Kamar-Taj is protecting and training in selected individuals, except now some people are also just born with magic and that's how it is. Or how Werewolf By Night suddenly states that for milennia there have been actual traditional monsters in the world that secret societies have been fighting. Or how the Ten Rings is no longer a terrorist organisation, but a secret assassin guild led by an immortal Chinese warlord who conquered China in the past but nobody in the world remembers for some reason.

I think the criticism on how the movies never state whether Wakanda actually opened up (and if it did, doesn't show it) ties into the general criticism you see online and also with certain media analysts and scholars of how the MCU seems completely stuck in some sort of technical dystopia where super advanced tech exists, but nobody ever shares it outside of a group of super-special people. If your idea of Wakanda successfully opening up is 'they helped that hyper advanced android this one time because they knew his friends', surely that points at something being wrong with the world of the MCU?

Marvel seems to be afraid to completely embrace the fact that the world of the MCU is for all intents and purposes a highly advanced sci-fi world. I mean, it's not really a discussion for this thread, but it is kinda interesting to think about how little of the super advanced tech we see exists in the Marvel movies is actually being used by regular people or in environments that could really, seriously need such tech as the magic Wakanda beads that apparently heal anything (except cancer).

 

[NunezL]

Drive by negative reactions are par for the course for every MCU thread in OT.

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I mean this thread is the antithesis of drive by reactions. There´s a good debate going on.

 

[BringBackSonics]

Man some of the reactions are kinda killing the will to watch it lol. I'll definitely watch it eventually, but I'm kinda of afraid I might not like it.

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Just watch it and make up your own mind? Seems like, some loved it and some didn't.

 

[Alexandros]

It's not. It's a really weak defense. Because no, this series does NOT resemble a tv series. It's a series of basically stand-alone films with cross-overs and sequels. The critique people have is that it wastes time on setting stuff up for different films that have little or nothing to do with the film at hand, and that it feels unfocussed. The other critique some have is that it reverts itself constantly to keep going, which is something that more sequels suffer from (pushing the same character through similar arcs or having them regain the same flaw they overcame before).

If I would indulge you and say, okay, it's a feature, you can still critique that feature because it sure as hell is flawed as fuck and leads to weak storytelling.

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That's one explanation. The other is that you are simply not willing to accept this different form of storytelling. It's reviewer syndrome: you go into these films with the intention of dissecting them and pinpointing any flaws instead of letting them tell you a story on their own terms. You are like the Captain America of forum critics, you planted yourself like a tree and you refuse to move a single inch from what you consider as prim and proper.

I'll ask you again: what does Wakanda Forever actually say about colonialism. What is the answer on the question it askes for you? What is the stance it takes? Because that's what the theme will be. If you have to say 'it will be resolved and answered somewhere in the future' you basically say: Wakanda Forever doesn't have this as a theme. And then you can ask, what's the point of this plot if 1. it has nothing to say and 2. doesn't really meaningfully tie into or drive the one theme (grief) this movie does have.

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To quote Zoolander, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of films in the entire history of cinema that explore a theme by providing two viewpoints and letting the audience draw their own conclusions or leave it purposefully open ended. There's no way that you are not aware of this.

See, I think this interconnectiveness, especially post-Endgame, isn't something that strengthens the MCU anymore as much. In fact, I think it's really starting to weaken how certain movies are able to handle their ideas and concepts and now that the MCU has been let more loose you can see more and more how things just simply don't add up.


Take for instance the Eternals. Now, there are many things in Eternals that are headscratchers from a MCU lore-perspective, but there's one thing I'd like to point out because it is of direct relevance to Wakanda Forever. In Eternals, we see Barry Keoghan break with the Eternals over Spanish colonisation of the Americas. He can't stand by and do nothing, so he walks away and vows to use his immense powers to stop the conquistadors... except he doesn't because for Namor's backstory it's important that the Spanish colonisation of the Americas happened like it did in our human history so his big statement to help the natives of Central America was limited to one village.

And there are all kinds of weird cracks in the continuity like this showing up throughout the MCU. Like, how in Dr. Strange it's explained that magic is real, but it's kind of like a weird science that Kamar-Taj is protecting and training in selected individuals, except now some people are also just born with magic and that's how it is. Or how Werewolf By Night suddenly states that for milennia there have been actual traditional monsters in the world that secret societies have been fighting. Or how the Ten Rings is no longer a terrorist organisation, but a secret assassin guild led by an immortal Chinese warlord who conquered China in the past but nobody in the world remembers for some reason.

I think the criticism on how the movies never state whether Wakanda actually opened up (and if it did, doesn't show it) ties into the general criticism you see online and also with certain media analysts and scholars of how the MCU seems completely stuck in some sort of technical dystopia where super advanced tech exists, but nobody ever shares it outside of a group of super-special people. If your idea of Wakanda successfully opening up is 'they helped that hyper advanced android this one time because they knew his friends', surely that points at something being wrong with the world of the MCU?

Marvel seems to be afraid to completely embrace the fact that the world of the MCU is for all intents and purposes a highly advanced sci-fi world. I mean, it's not really a discussion for this thread, but it is kinda interesting to think about how little of the super advanced tech we see exists in the Marvel movies is actually being used by regular people or in environments that could really, seriously need such tech as the magic Wakanda beads that apparently heal anything (except cancer).

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Yeah I i think what you are saying is generally fair. The MCU started as sort of a grounded world and it gradually became more comicbooky as more and more fantastical elements were introduced. If you want to know how we as fans deal with these inconsistencies, the simplest way to put it is that we roll with it because we understand and accept that as new elements are being introduced that weren't part of the original plan, such cracks in consistency and canon are inevitable.

Thankfully the MCU fanbase hasn't gone the Star Trek route of treating canon as holy texts, so when a new thing gets introduced that maybe contradicts canon in some way everyone goes "fuck yeah, this new thing is awesome!" instead of "wait, so if this new thing is true, then how did x and y happen?". So I want to be honest and I don't want to pretend that the MCU is some well-oiled machine. We roll with it because it is so fun that small details don't really matter.

 

[ZeoVGM]

MCU series though... avoid them alllllll.

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Yeah, don't listen to this. Horrible advice.

 

[JiyuuTenshi]

Take for instance the Eternals. Now, there are many things in Eternals that are headscratchers from a MCU lore-perspective, but there's one thing I'd like to point out because it is of direct relevance to Wakanda Forever. In Eternals, we see Barry Keoghan break with the Eternals over Spanish colonisation of the Americas. He can't stand by and do nothing, so he walks away and vows to use his immense powers to stop the conquistadors... except he doesn't because for Namor's backstory it's important that the Spanish colonisation of the Americas happened like it did in our human history so his big statement to help the natives of Central America was limited to one village.

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Wasn't that already obvious in Eternals itself? Druig only stopped that particular battle and created a community for the survivors to eliminate conflict and protect them from outsiders. I don't remember anything from that movie that suggested that he stopped the entire Spanish colonisation.

 

[SunBroDave]

Man some of the reactions are kinda killing the will to watch it lol. I'll definitely watch it eventually, but I'm kinda of afraid I might not like it.

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Movie's terrific - the best film Marvel has released since Endgame. It's quite unlike anything in the MCU, and really goes to some very emotional places.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Man some of the reactions are kinda killing the will to watch it lol. I'll definitely watch it eventually, but I'm kinda of afraid I might not like it.

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It's in my top 5 MCU flicks of all time, idk just see it for yourself and decide. It's not an easy movie to fit into a box because of what it has to deal with and how it chooses to do so while still needing to make an entertaining superhero movie. I think it succeeds at it tremendously, others may not and that's fine.

 

[CloudWolf]

Wasn't that already obvious in Eternals itself? Druig only stopped that particular battle and created a community for the survivors to eliminate conflict and protect them from outsiders. I don't remember anything from that movie that suggested that he stopped the entire Spanish colonisation.

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Sure, but who says that this was the original intention? Perhaps Zhao originally intended Druig to put more action behind his words, but wasn't able because well, Marvel Studios doesn't want to deal that kind of global change.

Of course, this is all me speculating, but the MCU does have a general reluctance when it comes to portraying actual global change.

 

[Osahi]

That's one explanation. The other is that you are simply not willing to accept this different form of storytelling. It's reviewer syndrome: you go into these films with the intention of dissecting them and pinpointing any flaws instead of letting them tell you a story on their own terms. You are like the Captain America of forum critics, you planted yourself like a tree and you refuse to move a single inch from what you consider as prim and proper.

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But it isn't a new form of storytelling, lol. It's not even real longform storytelling. In your reaction to Cloudwolf a few posts above you yourself describe it as 'standalone stories' with some overarching plot. (That last bit is something I don't fully agree with, because up untill now there hasn't been such a real throughline in the whole of MCU where every (or most) singe stories feed into. The characters just end up together in a crossover film that starts a new story. The idea it's one big story is more smoke and mirrors, but that's more a semantic discussion anyway )
Anyway, you affirm yourself that these films are singular stories. Which I agree. They are, and they use classic structure and storytelling techniques. But we're not allowed to judge them as singular stories? Remember, your argument for my critique that WF doesn't explore it's colonisation subject as a theme was 'the colonisation theme will be explored in some next film or series'. So what is it? Are these singular stories? Or not?

And on a broader sense it's not wrong to point out that the overarching bits they increasingly force into their shows and films leads to storytelling problems, and not only in terms of canon that isn't sound anymore (I couldn't care less about that honestly. Story always trumps canon). When you force in a storyline like the one with Freeman here only to set-up something else, holding up the singular story and messing up the pacing, you need to ask yourself if it wouldn't be better to keep those things in stingers like they used to, or keep it to their own thing untill you have a meaninful cross-over story.

Lastly, no, I don't sit down and watch these to dissect them or pinpoint flaws. I watch theml because I want to have a good time with a fun blockbuster, which is something the MCU has offered me a lot of times in the past. But when a movie doesn't convince me or entertain me, like WF did, yeah, I'll look for the reason behind that

To quote Zoolander, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of films in the entire history of cinema that explore a theme by providing two viewpoints and letting the audience draw their own conclusions or leave it purposefully open ended. There's no way that you are not aware of this.

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But Wakanda Forever doesnt do that? This is not a film exploring the theme of colonisation by offering and exploring two viewpoints and having the audience decide (which honestly, if a movie does that, I often feel like the writer chickened out and is afraid to take and defend a stance.) Wakanda Forever treats colonisation as a subject, at most informing some of the motivations of some of the characters. But it has nothing to say about it, nor does it pose any questions about like the original BP did.

 

[ngower]

Watched this last night. I thought some of the delivery of lines was weird at times (not bad, just...seemed out of place), but the production design/art direction/etc was S tier. I need more Namor in my life like...yesterday. Still a solid watch.

 

[JiyuuTenshi]

Sure, but who says that this was the original intention? Perhaps Zhao originally intended Druig to put more action behind his words, but wasn't able because well, Marvel Studios doesn't want to deal that kind of global change.

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Maybe, though I doubt that Namor's backstory would have been enough of a reason for this restriction. The details and timeline could have easily been changed to account for it. Changing history on a global scale retroactively is always going to be a major hassle though. I wouldn't envy any writer having to deal with this kind of ripple effect. It's impossible to change history like that if your story hasn't been fully planned out from start to finish and the change has been incorporated from the very beginning, hence why comics use concepts like reality bending magic or the multiverse to explain contradictions away when they wrote themselves into a corner.

 

[DJChuy]

Glad I skipped this in the theaters. Wasn't a fan of it. The story is kind of messy, boring and just too much. Also, I honestly don't know what to think of the opening scene. It starts off weird, you get the tragic news, you see people dancing with joy, and finish it off with shoddy CGI.

I do think it's a better movie than Love & Thunder. Bassett put in some work, and the soundtrack is a banger.

 

[Alexandros]

Anyway, you affirm yourself that these films are singular stories. Which I agree. They are, and they use classic structure and storytelling techniques. But we're not allowed to judge them as singular stories? Remember, your argument for my critique that WF doesn't explore it's colonisation subject as a theme was 'the colonisation theme will be explored in some next film or series'. So what is it? Are these singular stories? Or not?

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The simplest and most obvious of answers: They are both. You can't and shouldn't dissect them and separate one from the other. It's like Tony said in Iron Man 2 that the suit and he are one. Both combined become Iron Man.

And on a broader sense it's not wrong to point out that the overarching bits they increasingly force into their shows and films leads to storytelling problems, and not only in terms of canon that isn't sound anymore (I couldn't care less about that honestly. Story always trumps canon). When you force in a storyline like the one with Freeman here only to set-up something else, holding up the singular story and messing up the pacing, you need to ask yourself if it wouldn't be better to keep those things in stingers like they used to, or keep it to their own thing untill you have a meaninful cross-over story.

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The complaint about Freeman's scenes is still weird because multiple people have already explained why they exist in the film. Which again leads us to...

Lastly, no, I don't sit down and watch these to dissect them or pinpoint flaws. I watch theml because I want to have a good time with a fun blockbuster, which is something the MCU has offered me a lot of times in the past. But when a movie doesn't convince me or entertain me, like WF did, yeah, I'll look for the reason behind that

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...this. I truly, honestly believe that you are not giving these films a fair shake anymore. I remember earlier thoughts and criticisms you had about MCU films, I didn't always agree with them but I always read them because they were measured, thoughtful and interesting. I believe that at some point you bought into the "Marvel is ruining cinema" narrative and your disposition towards them changed dramatically, to the point that I think you go into the theater or sit in front of the TV determined to be disappointed and in the end your confirmation bias makes sure that you are.

Anyway, that's the impression I got from reading your posts over the years. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but the thing I would recommend is that the next time you sit down to watch an MCU film, you try to do so without doing the Neo thing and looking at its code. Try to meet the film half way and see if it changes your perception of it.

 

[Foot]

All your posts about this movie are good and correct, Osahi.

 

[魑魅魍魎]

I love this movie and it saddens me that it doesn't get the respect it deserves especially in this thread

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I really wished Wakanda wasn't so weak in this movie.

 

[Ryuhza]

Thought it was pretty good, especially given the unfortunate circumstances of its creation. Namor himself was great, though Talokan didn't really work for me. Namor talks a big game, but the Talokan's combat supremacy seemed mostly thanks to the Wakandans having plot demanded strategic deficiencies, or through a few tricks that worked only by surprise, like the siren song. More than that though, I wasn't sold by the majesty of the underwater city. It was just so dim and uninviting, and the people there hardly seemed adapted to their surroundings. It was just a bunch of surface stuff done really slowly, with heavy shadows everywhere. Y'know, because it was underwater. I nearly rolled my eyes when they were playing a Mesoamerican ball game down there.

 

[Osahi]

The simplest and most obvious of answers: They are both. You can't and shouldn't dissect them and separate one from the other. It's like Tony said in Iron Man 2 that the suit and he are one. Both combined become Iron Man.

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Of course you can seperate the singular story from the overarching one, and of course you can point out that the overarching parts have no place in this particular story.

When we're talking about the theme I found lacking, we're talking about the singular story. Using the 'but they might explore it later on!' As an argument is a weak argument that just avoids talking about the issue at hand. If your argument is basically that the big plot of this film is just a set-up for something else that might come down the line, you just affirm that this is not really good storytelling practice, even if you compare it to a TV-show. So I'll repeat my question: why tell this story then, if you have nothing (yet) to say with it?

(Also, you are really, really, really overselling the idea that it is all one big story)

The complaint about Freeman's scenes is still weird because multiple people have already explained why they exist in the film. Which again leads us to...

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Might have missed it, but I have not read any compelling argument for including his little sidestory. After he set's Shuri towards Riri he's role is served. It feels like it only serves to set-up another film or show. And you might be okay with that because you believe it's all one big thing, but ultimately it drags this movie (which is a singular story) down and could be relegated to a stinger or just the other thing and you'd miss nothing.

...this. I truly, honestly believe that you are not giving these films a fair shake anymore. I remember earlier thoughts and criticisms you had about MCU films, I didn't always agree with them but I always read them because they were measured, thoughtful and interesting. I believe that at some point you bought into the "Marvel is ruining cinema" narrative and your disposition towards them changed dramatically, to the point that I think you go into the theater or sit in front of the TV determined to be disappointed and in the end your confirmation bias makes sure that you are.

Anyway, that's the impression I got from reading your posts over the years. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but the thing I would recommend is that the next time you sit down to watch an MCU film, you try to do so without doing the Neo thing and looking at its code. Try to meet the film half way and see if it changes your perception of it.

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If that was true I would've hated every MCU project since whenever you've perceived 'I've changed'. But very recently I enjoyed Multiverse of Madness for what it was (though if you look at it as part of a bigger story and a follow-up to Wandavision it has serious storytelling issues) and I really liked the Ms Marvel show. So how do you rhyme those with me apparently being biased against them and just watching them to pick them apart? Maybe I'm picking them apart because they've become increasingly flawed, or because some of them just are plain awfull (Love & Thunder comes to mind)?

 

[RSTEIN]

WOW this movie was a HORRIBLE. I'm honestly shocked. Looked like it was shot with a $25 million budget. Wakanda has never felt so small. The end fight CGI was laughably bad. It was the same 20 Wakandans vs 20 Namorites throughout the movie. Apparently United States is afraid of Wakanda's tech but Wakanda has like literally 50 warriors tops now and best tech they have against Namor was a FREAKIN BOAT that could be brought down by a spear and water grenades. What happened to the incredible Wakanda seen in Avengers and Black Panther?

Sorry, I'm still stinging from this one. Holy hell.

 

[Bard]

Having just watched this, really don't envy Coogler having to make this movie. Chadwick's passing, Letitia's bullshit, Marvel's expectations coupled with their practices with the VFX studios and productions. Man has my respect for turning in anything at all.

 

[Alexandros]

Of course you can seperate the singular story from the overarching one, and of course you can point out that the overarching parts have no place in this particular story.

When we're talking about the theme I found lacking, we're talking about the singular story. Using the 'but they might explore it later on!' As an argument is a weak argument that just avoids talking about the issue at hand. If your argument is basically that the big plot of this film is just a set-up for something else that might come down the line, you just affirm that this is not really good storytelling practice, even if you compare it to a TV-show. So I'll repeat my question: why tell this story then, if you have nothing (yet) to say with it?

(Also, you are really, really, really overselling the idea that it is all one big story)


Might have missed it, but I have not read any compelling argument for including his little sidestory. After he set's Shuri towards Riri he's role is served. It feels like it only serves to set-up another film or show. And you might be okay with that because you believe it's all one big thing, but ultimately it drags this movie (which is a singular story) down and could be relegated to a stinger or just the other thing and you'd miss nothing.

If that was true I would've hated every MCU project since whenever you've perceived 'I've changed'. But very recently I enjoyed Multiverse of Madness for what it was (though if you look at it as part of a bigger story and a follow-up to Wandavision it has serious storytelling issues) and I really liked the Ms Marvel show. So how do you rhyme those with me apparently being biased against them and just watching them to pick them apart? Maybe I'm picking them apart because they've become increasingly flawed, or because some of them just are plain awfull (Love & Thunder comes to mind)?

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Aww, I really liked Love and Thunder. Anyway, I've said what I wanted to say, I listened to what you have to say, thanks for the civil and interesting discussion.

 

[CherryWoodFuton]

Having just watched this, really don't eny Coogler having to make this movie. Chadwick's passing, Letitia's bullshit, Marvel's expectations coupled with their practices with the VFX studios and productions. Man has my respect for turning in anything at all.

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I will watch anything Coogler makes now. If he can turn a shit sandwich of a situation into a coherent and emotional movie then there is no limit to what he can do

 

[viral]

Watched this today, I thought it was alright. It felt a little long, and the Martin Freeman storyline should have been cut entirely, it didn't add anything to the film and was just a chore to watch until we got back to the good parts. But I guess we gotta have a big name white actor for no reason.

They handled Chadwick's passing really well, although I think killing the queen was a little too much and the alliance at the end felt wrong because of it. It sucks that Letitia Wright is shitty in real life, because she was great in the movie.

 

[apocat]

I loved Namor. They even made his ankle wings look interesting rather than silly. Other than that, this was surprisingly tame and a big step down from the first film. They sucked all the magic out of Wakanda. For all the hate it gets, I actually liked Love and Thunder a lot more than this. I guess Bosemans death and the pandemic did a real number on the production.

And how much of an asshole was T'Challa to keep his son a secret from his own sister? Seriously, what was even the point of that, other than to give us a twist at the end and introduce a way to have a new T'Challa as the Black Panther in a decade or so?

 

[Cuburger]

Namor and especially Talokan are such an interesting element of the story. I love the intro to Talokan. It does a great job at getting you invested and relating to another group that is in conflict with Wakanda. Namor is really bad ass too.

It was such an impossible task to move on with the franchise in the absence and tragic death of the lead, but they all did such an admiral job here.

 

[Darkgran]

Man some of the reactions are kinda killing the will to watch it lol. I'll definitely watch it eventually, but I'm kinda of afraid I might not like it.

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ERA has shitty taste in movies.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

Man some of the reactions are kinda killing the will to watch it lol. I'll definitely watch it eventually, but I'm kinda of afraid I might not like it.

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I mean, the flaws are there, it's just to what extent do they bother you. I agree with a good amount of the criticism made, some not at all, but I still like the movie more than most in this thread. Definitely worth a watch.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

Glad I skipped this in the theaters. Wasn't a fan of it. The story is kind of messy, boring and just too much. Also, I honestly don't know what to think of the opening scene. It starts off weird, you get the tragic news, you see people dancing with joy, and finish it off with shoddy CGI.

I do think it's a better movie than Love & Thunder. Bassett put in some work, and the soundtrack is a banger.

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Are you under the impression they were happy he died or not familiar with certain funeral ceremonies?

 

[Vish]

WOW this movie was a HORRIBLE. I'm honestly shocked. Looked like it was shot with a $25 million budget. Wakanda has never felt so small. The end fight CGI was laughably bad. It was the same 20 Wakandans vs 20 Namorites throughout the movie. Apparently United States is afraid of Wakanda's tech but Wakanda has like literally 50 warriors tops now and best tech they have against Namor was a FREAKIN BOAT that could be brought down by a spear and water grenades. What happened to the incredible Wakanda seen in Avengers and Black Panther?

Sorry, I'm still stinging from this one. Holy hell.

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I kinda agree. We aren't really shown how wakanda would fair against other nations tech. They are great in special ops battles, but somehow it doesn't translate to seeing or understanding how they would do in war versus the US navy for instance. We just know that their weapons blow stuff up in a single strike.

 

[gforguava]

There was a lot to love about this: the cast as a whole(with a couple of truly excellent performances in there), Namor in particular, some of the art direction, the way the film confidently steered directly into dealing with Boseman's death. But the film never really cohered into to anything for me.

Good characters, good scenes, good ideas, but at the end of the day it felt somehow both over and under-cooked. Ignoring Letitia Wright's personal stuff, I thought she gave a strong performance but I felt like the film made a good case for why Shuri shouldn't be the Black Panther before just tossing her the mantle, seemingly just because of the royal succession and legacy and whatnot. I guess I just find it annoying that a smart and capable scientist lady has to punch people at the end in order to be a 'true' hero.

And I definitely agree with CloudWolf 's thoughts about the film ignoring the ramifications of T'Challa "opening up" Wakanda. It is bizarre to see the narrative thrust of the first BP just completely ignored in this one.

There were two big things that I disliked about the film, namely that I did not care for the T'Challa's son reveal and, more impactfully, that the film is routinely unpleasant to look at. The cgi in general is all over the place but it is Wakanda itself that hurt, it is still just a handful of sets with some truly dire digital extensions, some of them I truly could not believe I was looking at.

 

[Aiqops]

Was MidCU tier.

 

[Soj]

As plodding as Thor: The Dark World but with Iron Man 2 tier writing. Took me 3 sittings to get through it.

Given Boseman's death and the production difficulties, I expected a downgrade from the first movie, I just didn't think it would be this big. M'Baku was the only highlight and he was underused. Everett Ross and Elaine didn't need to be there at all. Complete waste of screen time.

The action was especially disappointing compared to the awesome one shot casino fight in the original. Marvel choppy editing in full effect here. Shang-Chi raised the bar for MCU action, this just isn't good enough anymore.

 

[GameAddict411]

I watched it a couple of days ago and this movie is a huge step down from the first movie. The conflict itself is ridiculously dumb. For such a simple thing, they are ready to burn down the whole world. I had multiple moments where I eye rolled lol. Also that the lead is an anti vaxxer, it's always in the back of my head that she is a dumbass. I thought I would get over it when I was watching the movie, but nah. It never happened.

 

[McNum]

This is just how the movie looks. It looked like this in the cinema as well.

It's why I'm baffled when I see people saying this movie looks beautiful. I'm like "Did they watch a different movie? The one I watched looked dark and muddy as shit."

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That's really a shame. This movie has a lot of shots that would be gorgeous if they had allowed for the full range of colors. It probably also contributed to why Wakanda didn't seem as awesome as it usually does.

I don't get why you'd colorgrade a movie this poorly. Espeically when you know there's going to be a long underwater scene. And, you know, Wakanda.

 

[The Ethereal One]

I kinda agree. We aren't really shown how wakanda would fair against other nations tech. They are great in special ops battles, but somehow it doesn't translate to seeing or understanding how they would do in war versus the US navy for instance. We just know that their weapons blow stuff up in a single strike.

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Theoretically there's nothing the US could do against Wakandan forces because standard artillery is useless against vibranium which is why they're trying to get their hands on it in the first place. I kinda agree with the claim that Wakanda seems kinda nerfed in the film but tbh this is supposed to be their lowest moment after losing their leader(s).

 

[Coldbrewblac]

Leticia Wright is definitely not the star that Chadwick Boseman was. Angela Bassett was great. This movie was really messy, and definitely fits right in with the other lackluster movies Marvel has released this phase.

 

[Vish]

Theoretically there's nothing the US could do against Wakandan forces because standard artillery is useless against vibranium which is why they're trying to get their hands on it in the first place. I kinda agree with the claim that Wakanda seems kinda nerfed in the film but tbh this is supposed to be their lowest moment after losing their leader(s).

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Oh yeah that's right. That was shown in both movies I forgot about that.

 

[BarcaTheGreat]

The way the movie started (I wasn't familiar with these Aztech people in MCU before), I was super hyped. It was almost a bit horror like. But rest of the movie was not good at all and

Spoiler: Spoiler

Suri's real life drama just made me super mad she was the Black Panther.

 

[Darkmaigle]

It was pretty good!

The last action sequence is incredibly stupid though

 

[Volken]

Yet another forgettable MCU film.

The story was silly and the action was boring.

 

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

ERA has shitty taste in movies.

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Entertainment in general, actually.