Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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No it doesn't.bthere are multiple images in that tweet. One of them specifically mentions Arden.
You should watch the Project Scarlett reveal trailer again.
That SOC and RAM area looks very different from a classic layout like they used in Xbox One S and X
So could very well be some kind of Interposer.
I learned a lesson this past gen, I went with Xbox because that was where my friends were, but almost all of them are on Playstation now. I will go where the games are next gen.
MS still hasn't really shown any compelling exclusives that make me proud to be an Xbox owner or make me want their next console. I don't care about Forza, Gears is good but was never a major draw for me, and I stopped being interested in Halo after Halo 4.
The console with the most compelling exclusive titles is where I will be next gen.
I specifically asked hmqgg to clarify which part of that post they were confirming, and there was no clarification.
You should watch the Project Scarlett reveal trailer again.
That SOC and RAM area looks very different from a classic layout like they used in Xbox One S and X
So could very well be some kind of Interposer.
What this render shows is a traditional package surrounded by GDDR6, which is surrounded by a metal ring for a heatsink fixture that covers both SoC and RAM. It's going to be a big heatsink similar to what you see on a discrete graphics card. Probably paste to the SoC and graphite TIM pads on the RAM.
The thing that has me more excited next gen is cross play than whether one box is 10 percent stronger. If the difference is much smaller than PS4 and XB1 I don't care. What I care about is being able to play 3rd party games with my whole gaming group.
I agree, but why on earth would MS have thought giving the PS5 a head start would be a good idea? I cant imagine a world where they sat in a room and thought "lets wait a year and be more powerful and give PS5 5-10 million unit headstart". Yes I get they are moving away from xbox console sales as a unit of metric, almost all big tech providers are, but it would be a terrible look for them to sell less then half of what their main competitor sold.
It's clear that hmqgg has access to certain info and is sometimes be wrong on other things .
Like he was talking about the gpu doing stuff after the wired interview with Cerny talking about SSD being faster than anything out right now.
While later we saw the patent from Sony show something different .
Either way i think his info is okay but i will have to separate his opinion from it .
Like he was talking about the gpu doing stuff after the wired interview with Cerny talking about SSD being faster than anything out right now.
While later we saw the patent from Sony show something different .
Either way i think his info is okay but i will have to separate his opinion from it .
One of the most reasonable takes I've seen. Seems like MS went from being VERY sure they would be better to UNCLEAR. And until they know more they are playing their cards close to the vest. Continuing to come out swinging on the power metric now and then failing would be terrible. Closer to launch when they are sure who is more powerful (by whatever metric they choose to use), then can still beat their chest over it.
If all the back and forth in this thread has told me one thing, its that the two machines will be damn close with only minor "wins" on either side in different areas.
Matt already confirmed that PS5 has hardware RT too so you can probably drop this theory.
TheThreadsThatBindUs :Looking back at the MS conference where the devs, I become more and more incensed every time I see it. I do not know whether this is an American thing (especially given how PoTUS is a beacon for normalizing lying) to do or a corporate thing but it felt like engineers had little to no respect for intelligence of potential end users.
Problematic quotes:
Problematic quotes:
- "Resolutions like we have never seen before" - Are we going to play all games at beyond native 4K because we have seen native 4K on X.
- "We are seeing framerates up to 120fps" - Are the next gen games going to be consistently up to 120fps?
"Combination of SSD and Solid State Drive" - Really, really?
Well my uneducated take on all this is Microsoft was originally sure Sony would launch in 2019/early 2020 at 8TF $399 as Albert has hinted.
They maybe thought a bigger build cost at $499 would guarantee them the power advantage, hence the "we will set the benchmark talk" and also a streaming or lower power device not too far from the PS5 would come in at $299 or $350 to corner that market.
What seems to have happened now is Sony are aiming for the best possible hardware at whatever cost $499 $450? and Microsoft are now back tracking their wording into services and all round balanced chit chat.
They may now know the PS5 will basically be the same or even more powerful at roughly the same costing.
We have the same chip maker, same philosophy about game only hardware, same ideas, ssd, RT and so on, it's pretty obvious now both consoles are going to be basically the same give or take 5 or 10%. This is good IMO because if one was more powerful than the other by any significant margin I really doubt you would see that advantage anyway from 3rd parties.
I personally think Microsoft have been a bit blaze in their thinking, mabe that stems from the Pro and the X in that they were sure they could outsmart and out engineer anything Sony could do?
So now it goes back to a lull until more info is discussed from the hardware makers themselves, leaks and insides are pretty much incorrect most of the time so I'll wait until I hear it from the horse's mouth. Things that nobody still knows are clocks, secret sauce, costs and the number of SKU's.
Just what I think reading between the lines but I could be well off.
They maybe thought a bigger build cost at $499 would guarantee them the power advantage, hence the "we will set the benchmark talk" and also a streaming or lower power device not too far from the PS5 would come in at $299 or $350 to corner that market.
What seems to have happened now is Sony are aiming for the best possible hardware at whatever cost $499 $450? and Microsoft are now back tracking their wording into services and all round balanced chit chat.
They may now know the PS5 will basically be the same or even more powerful at roughly the same costing.
We have the same chip maker, same philosophy about game only hardware, same ideas, ssd, RT and so on, it's pretty obvious now both consoles are going to be basically the same give or take 5 or 10%. This is good IMO because if one was more powerful than the other by any significant margin I really doubt you would see that advantage anyway from 3rd parties.
I personally think Microsoft have been a bit blaze in their thinking, mabe that stems from the Pro and the X in that they were sure they could outsmart and out engineer anything Sony could do?
So now it goes back to a lull until more info is discussed from the hardware makers themselves, leaks and insides are pretty much incorrect most of the time so I'll wait until I hear it from the horse's mouth. Things that nobody still knows are clocks, secret sauce, costs and the number of SKU's.
Just what I think reading between the lines but I could be well off.
This is why I take hmqgg with a grain of salt. Not because I don't think they have insider information, but because they so rarely seem to be willing to be clear on their information. It can be misleading, and at worst, intentionally so.
That hasn't stopped them from making claims about the PS5, whether or not they are true. How can they say they don't know about the PS5 and also say the secret to the PS5 SSD is GPU decompression?
Which is my point in a way .
When it comes to insiders you have to learn to separate the info they have to when they speculating\ have a opinion of there own .
Cause sometimes people can't tell the difference and use the opinion \ speculating as part of the debate because the person is a insider .
That's the thing with leaks. If the leak turns out to be wrong you'll get called a liar even if your information was accurate at some point. Just like my post about Yukon on the last page. Let's say the Yukon document never goes public and I come into a thread like this in 2012 and tell you that the next Xbox will contain two GPUs and three separate sets of CPU cores and that Microsoft is planning to offer a streaming service for videogames and is planning to release stand alone AR glasses. I'd be called a liar in 2013 when the actual product was revealed either because parts of the original strategy got canned or postponed.
Ah, I do not know how I missed that watching 3 times over. Thanks for the correction.
Parity Hardware wise between both machines would be wonderful and hopefully make for a calmer state of affairs going into next gen. Any minor wins from either side though will be the battleground for many a console warrior I fear
This feels like a bit of a reach. Many companies around the world advertise their products at the furthest edge of their capabilities, even though thats not where most activity will take place. Many games on the XB1X are not 4K but much of their advertising revolves around "True 4K". Phone providers advertise maximum speeds for their phones that are not used all the time. ISP's list max speeds "UP TO 500GBps". This doesnt seem an unusual thing for MS or really any other tech company.
As for the resolutions andframerates, it felt to me like they were talking to console customers. Clearly PC people have had high framerates and resolutions before.
For consoles, not explicitly.
But we got information on the performance of the first Navi PC chips coming this year. We got details on the RDNA architecture and what's changed vs GCN. And we got confirmation that future Navi parts will have some level of ray tracing acceleration.
I was looking through some research into hybrid CPU/GPU RT and one interesting thing I gleamed from it is that, seemingly, k-d trees are more suited for CPU acceleration (through wide vector execution) than BVHs. That could shine some light into Sony's interest in k-d trees and AVX512.
Also, there's been some really cool advancements into the whole "updating the k-d trees in real time" problem.
Also, there's been some really cool advancements into the whole "updating the k-d trees in real time" problem.
Also possible, but I'm not so sure about it.
Those holes or whatever look weird and a normal metal ring to relieve pressure on the die could be made simpler.
Yup. Super disappointing.
Zen 2! Navi! SSD! We're launching with an Xbox One game!
I think it's more that they decided releasing Scarlett any less than 3 years after the X was out of the question.
He clearly said he had PS5 info in response to one of the users in this thread that said something like: "hmgg doesn't know shit about PS5". I remember that clearly. He also said that once the Dante dekit (anaconda) was in the wild it out performed PS5 devkit.
I don't even care about banning the guy, I don't think he deserves it to be honest but, this should be a lesson to everyone to take insiders with a grain of salt.
Not really. I did not knock them for mentioning "8K" or "VRR" because they essentially mentioned specs for HDMI 2.1 and neither of them will be used on a regular basis if at all for gaming unless you have the hardware and software support.
My bone to pick were with aforementioned aspects because we will never see resolutions beyond 4K in next gen games and/or 120fps (barring exceptions and perhaps for BC titles). It is literally like pulling numbers from the void, without context and presenting them as comparative improvements that will implemented as part of next standards. This is far more egregious than stating bandwidth numbers for RAM or Storage I/O or TF value which are innately tied to the performance of a system.
I remember Sony pulling a very similar stunt with PS3 reveal. There are times when you can smell the bullshit right away because within the context of existing and expected performance paradigms, these come off an absolute outliers.
no way there is microsoft gave chance to a sony be the Performance Leader I more trust in the BIG hint phil spencer do at them conference then a only tweet exciting unconfirmed (first party haha lol) developers they can call fanboy because I chose to believe vp head of xbox insted of random change of narrative anonymous sources
I present my evidence:
when vp spencer take the stage in announce crossfire he was only not announce new game but teasing the incredible work see will from Panay just think about it panay has added crossfire to P R O J E C T S C A R L E T T anaconda (the true performance leader( will actually is 2 lockearts in crossfire just about think it makes much sense and why not I believe just the words of journalist when it benefits PS5 change of narrative Xbox having crossfire locks the definatevly superior console to sony because you will link many xboxes using crossfire with deep partnership with doctor lisa shu and panos panay )))
I present my evidence:
when vp spencer take the stage in announce crossfire he was only not announce new game but teasing the incredible work see will from Panay just think about it panay has added crossfire to P R O J E C T S C A R L E T T anaconda (the true performance leader( will actually is 2 lockearts in crossfire just about think it makes much sense and why not I believe just the words of journalist when it benefits PS5 change of narrative Xbox having crossfire locks the definatevly superior console to sony because you will link many xboxes using crossfire with deep partnership with doctor lisa shu and panos panay )))
It's so obvious Sony cancelled their reveal of the ps5. People said they needed to go back and figure out the ssd and 8tf might lead to criticism.
What I don't think is Sony will end up with better hardware. One will have an edge in tf power and the other will have an edge in loading and maybe ray tracing. I don't think one of these companies is going to have the complete package.
I also think Sony are still aiming at 399. How they're going to be able to pull it off will be interesting. If even still a choice.
This entire topic is now just going to be waiting for information for an entire year leading up to the next e3 and after. Gonna be a slow grind.
It's a render, so we don't know what features are accurately represented. The holes on the outer ring? Those would be to allow for natural convection. You don't want air pressure constantly cycling in that cavity.
BTW, based on the render, I'm anticipating Scarlett die size > 400mm^2. This is based on its shorter side needing to be at least as wide as the narrow side of the Navi chiplet. It's hard to get ratios from isometric views, but the Scarlett die appears to have a > 2:1 length to width ratio, which puts it in greater than 400mm^2 territory. It looks like it's probably Zen 2 cores with a GPU top hat.
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I think what's most mind-blowing regarding the "leaks" is that we consistently had Anaconda at 12-14TFLOPs while right now it looks like anything >10TFLOPs will be a stretch for either one of them. Navi with it's changed architecture in the configuration of 40-48CUs cannot reach 12 TFLOPs unless it's clocked beyond 2GHz which is impossible for a console (PC as well though). The only way it's plausable to hit such figures is using over 60 CUs but then we're talking about a GPU that's the size of PS4/Xbone/Pro/XBX APUs.
I don't really understand what exactly gave the leakers this impression. The only way >12 TFLOPs was even remotely possible was to use Vega with its CUs (and all of its deficiencies).
I don't really understand what exactly gave the leakers this impression. The only way >12 TFLOPs was even remotely possible was to use Vega with its CUs (and all of its deficiencies).
Maybe he can use the time off to learn how to write properly.
Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't I don't care. I was just pointing that out.
English is probably not his first language. It's not mine too, and I wont make fun of people who uses broken english.
edit: Except Reirom, but he's a legend.
It's good to see consoles once again pushing the envelope of tech beyond where even high-end PCs are.
Last time I remember that happening was the PS3/360 era, when the PS3 had the amazing multi core CELL CPU and the 360 had GPU abilities your couldn't even buy on the highest-end PC cards yet.
Now we have what seems to be SSD tech and raytracing hardware this isn't on PC yet. Pretty cool.
English is not my first language. There's a myriad of tools to avoid writing like that, Google translate off the top of my head.
On work related matters? Sure.
In a video game forum? I'll give broken english a pass. So's on social media.
guys, do you remember how many months before the release of Ps4 ans Xbox one we had all the info or at least some confirmed specs from the companies??
What is the reasonable expectation here? Console GPU based on 5700 or something beyond that already has RT tech incorporated into it from AMD, given that the consoles do not come to market (in all likelihood) before holiday 2020?
You know thats a game right and not amd's crossfire for multi gpu.no way there is microsoft gave chance to a sony be the Performance Leader I more trust in the BIG hint phil spencer do at them conference then a only tweet exciting unconfirmed (first party haha lol) developers they can call fanboy because I chose to believe vp head of xbox insted of random change of narrative anonymous sources
I present my evidence:
when vp spencer take the stage in announce crossfire he was only not announce new game but teasing the incredible work see will from Panay just think about it panay has added crossfire to P R O J E C T S C A R L E T T anaconda (the true performance leader( will actually is 2 lockearts in crossfire just about think it makes much sense and why not I believe just the words of journalist when it benefits PS5 change of narrative Xbox having crossfire locks the definatevly superior console to sony because you will link many xboxes using crossfire with deep partnership with doctor lisa shu and panos panay )))
My take on reading things over the last year and through E3 now is that it does seem likely that Sony had originally planned PS5 for a 2019 launch and delayed to 2020, so the PS5 and Anaconda will likely end up being pretty close in overall system components and power at launch. It is certainly even possible that one system could end up having a paper TFLOPS advantage and not be the best performing console in real gaming scenarios depending on the overall architectural decisions. They are both going to make great next gen consoles that apparently will both have SSDs and some form of ray tracing.
I do think it is fair to point out in terms of co-engineering and partnership with AMD on next gen SOCs that Microsoft has at least been more willing to be right out there front and center in available opportunities with AMD, including Phil Spencer at CES with Lisa Su in January. Microsoft was on stage with Lisa Su at her Computex keynote in front of a slide titled 'Deep Partnership' with a picture of an Xbox One X on it, and Lisa asked the woman to talk about how their relationship has changed and gotten deeper, and she says that they got together 2 years ago to plan the next generation of Ryzen. And then they both act excited about "next level" secrets in their work together on graphics, gaming and cloud. She also said that they have "completely moved the needle in how they approach co-development together".
And then of course you have the exact words that Lisa shared yesterday during the AMD E3 briefing about both PS5 and Project Scarlett that show even if you want to simply say it was their provided PR to AMD that Microsoft is really wanting that continued message about co-engineering and deep partnership to come through clearly.
Lisa Su on PS5: "Working collaboratively with Sony over the last few years to build a custom chip based on the Zen 2 and next gen Radeon Architectures."
Lisa Su on Project Scarlett: "Custom Processor co-engineered between our team and the Microsoft team, with one goal in mind, to deliver the ultimate gaming experience. It uses our Zen 2 cpu core and next generation Radeon RDNA gaming graphics architecture."
Given that Navi will be more power efficient in general than Vega and even some of the Sony patents about cooling and rumors about HBM memory, maybe it wouldn't be shocking to see a small TFLOPS advantage in a PS5 over Anaconda. This could even explain some early dev kit rumors that the Game Informer editor had heard about PS5 being more powerful in the dev kits (he clarified later it was based on supposed TFLOPS).
I would also note that even the internal Microsoft marketing materials that were shared on here with verbiage about Anaconda always said "performance leader" and not "world's most powerful console" wording. Phil Spencer has repeatedly talked about performance and frame rate for next gen including in a recent post E3 interview with Engadget about Project Scarlett. Mike Ybarra from Microsoft was interviewed by Windows Central and said that games playing best on their system was still very important to the team when asked about Scarlett versus PS5.
It would not be crazy to think that we end up with a PS5 that could claim "most powerful" based on a small traditional TFLOPS advantage, and a Project Scarlett Anaconda next generation Xbox that ends up performing better in real world gaming scenarios based on the co-engineering SOC work with AMD and their own API level design and work with DXR and Variable Rate Shading for example.
I do think it is fair to point out in terms of co-engineering and partnership with AMD on next gen SOCs that Microsoft has at least been more willing to be right out there front and center in available opportunities with AMD, including Phil Spencer at CES with Lisa Su in January. Microsoft was on stage with Lisa Su at her Computex keynote in front of a slide titled 'Deep Partnership' with a picture of an Xbox One X on it, and Lisa asked the woman to talk about how their relationship has changed and gotten deeper, and she says that they got together 2 years ago to plan the next generation of Ryzen. And then they both act excited about "next level" secrets in their work together on graphics, gaming and cloud. She also said that they have "completely moved the needle in how they approach co-development together".
And then of course you have the exact words that Lisa shared yesterday during the AMD E3 briefing about both PS5 and Project Scarlett that show even if you want to simply say it was their provided PR to AMD that Microsoft is really wanting that continued message about co-engineering and deep partnership to come through clearly.
Lisa Su on PS5: "Working collaboratively with Sony over the last few years to build a custom chip based on the Zen 2 and next gen Radeon Architectures."
Lisa Su on Project Scarlett: "Custom Processor co-engineered between our team and the Microsoft team, with one goal in mind, to deliver the ultimate gaming experience. It uses our Zen 2 cpu core and next generation Radeon RDNA gaming graphics architecture."
Given that Navi will be more power efficient in general than Vega and even some of the Sony patents about cooling and rumors about HBM memory, maybe it wouldn't be shocking to see a small TFLOPS advantage in a PS5 over Anaconda. This could even explain some early dev kit rumors that the Game Informer editor had heard about PS5 being more powerful in the dev kits (he clarified later it was based on supposed TFLOPS).
I would also note that even the internal Microsoft marketing materials that were shared on here with verbiage about Anaconda always said "performance leader" and not "world's most powerful console" wording. Phil Spencer has repeatedly talked about performance and frame rate for next gen including in a recent post E3 interview with Engadget about Project Scarlett. Mike Ybarra from Microsoft was interviewed by Windows Central and said that games playing best on their system was still very important to the team when asked about Scarlett versus PS5.
It would not be crazy to think that we end up with a PS5 that could claim "most powerful" based on a small traditional TFLOPS advantage, and a Project Scarlett Anaconda next generation Xbox that ends up performing better in real world gaming scenarios based on the co-engineering SOC work with AMD and their own API level design and work with DXR and Variable Rate Shading for example.
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