I guess I'm conflating this with the more frequent posting of "the OT was never any good anyway" that I see so much here. If you grew up in the 80s it was the greatest thing ever - even my mom was a huge fan!Yeah, probably not. My friend is the biggest Star Wars fan I know, named his kid Luke, and loves TLJ. I'm not a fan though. It was a stupid movie and what they did with Luke was just the stupid cherry on top.
The truly terrible thing is that not only did TLJ ruin the ST, it ruined the OT and its main character.
I hope master troll Rian enjoyed destroying one of the most popular works of fiction in western culture. Subverting expectations!
I'm not sure what I wanted out of Luke's return, but what we got in TLJ wasn't it.
I always get the creeping feeling that the people who love TLJ the most are the ones that love the OT the least.
You got a lot of points all over here but ultimately it can boil down to this. What was the character Arc in RotJ? Was it that he stopped just barely short of cutting his father's head off? That's an iffy Arc if it can even be considered one but that's the only one I can see.
Prior to that fight, most of Luke's development was offscreen before ESB and RotJ. When he shows up in Jabba's Palace he's calm, and very self-assured. But nothing about him suggested a sacrifice, just that he considered himself a Jedi (which is funny since he grows right back to Yoda afterwards to train more). So his change in being more confident isn't the arc since it already happened. And up until the scene I mentioned before with Vader, Luke's personality doesn't really change much more. He's confident he can help the Commandos on the moon of Endor, he's confident he can take on the Emperor without any fear, he's confident he can take on Vader. Then comes the end of the fight scene and he decides no to kill Vader. So what did he sacrifice and what others did he inspire?
And I mentioned Vader in many posts so I'll come back to him. Vader is the one who goes through a character arc in RotJ. Vader is the one who makes a sacrifice. Vader pushes from ESB to turn Skywalker and tries hard to not kill Skywalker. Then finally, right before he takes Luke to RotJ he talks to Luke and you begin to see he's not the same Vader he was, his interactions with Luke are changing him. Ultimately you realize Vader has sympathy for his son and despite his loyalty to the Emperor he's changing slowly. This all comes to a head when he sees Luke at the Emperor's mercy, clearly going to die. He's not inspired by Luke's actions to not kill him, he's changed because that's his son. Despite everything he's done and the evil he created, he's still Luke's father. It's why he asks right before the end to have his helmet taken off so he can see him with his own eyes.
Actually thinking on it, RotJ is the subversive movie, not TLJ. it was deconstructive, but nothing at all subversive. But in RotJ the main villain from all the movies has the character arc. Vader is the one who kill the Emperor, not Luke like we all expected.
same way that he knew his friends were on Bespin in Empire Strikes Back, I guessnot a fan of TLJ at all.. or Luke's character in it.. I was wondering thought I couldnt find it anywhere.. but is it a plot hole or does Leia have force tracking location on her... or something.
How does Luke even know what planet to Force project on... Ive only seen it once so im not sure if it was answered in the movie cant remember. but I cant find it online was it just another plot hole?
not a fan of TLJ at all.. or Luke's character in it.. I was wondering thought I couldnt find it anywhere.. but is it a plot hole or does Leia have force tracking location on her... or something.
How does Luke even know what planet to Force project on... Ive only seen it once so im not sure if it was answered in the movie cant remember. but I cant find it online was it just another plot hole?
same way that he knew his friends were on Bespin in Empire Strikes Back, I guess
Luke and Leia are connected. The first time Luke reconnected with the force in the movie the very first thing he decided to do was check on Leia.not a fan of TLJ at all.. or Luke's character in it.. I was wondering thought I couldnt find it anywhere.. but is it a plot hole or does Leia have force tracking location on her... or something.
How does Luke even know what planet to Force project on... Ive only seen it once so im not sure if it was answered in the movie cant remember. but I cant find it online was it just another plot hole?
"Eyes of a scared boy" does not literally mean "this character was a child during this scene please ignore that you're very clearly looking at a grown ass man" Like you realize Kylo is 29 right? The youngest age he could be during that scene is 23, which from the perspective of a man who at the time, is 45, is a boy.
The exact length of Luke pulling out his lightsaber, getting angered at the thought of losing everything, and igniting it before immediately coming back to his senses is 12 seconds.
It's absolutely a brief lapse of judgement in every sense of the word. Just take the L on this one goddamn, you asked for a receipt and I gave you 2.
No, i'm saying that that's a good scene that shouldn't have been cut. Frankly the vast vast majority of scenes shouldn't have been cut but Rian Johnson was concerned about runtime.
The audience disappointment with TLJ Luke failing to live up to the legend of the OT is very meta really
In summary - Luke is a shit. TLJ was very much in-character. The Skywalker men are a bunch of emotionally stunted man children given more credit than they're due because they're good at space magic.
Does it need to be when we very very clearly see that it's still Adam Driver, a grown ass man, from multiple angles? There's zero indication that Kylo was a child unless you interpret the dialogue WAY too literally.No I don't know how old he is because, to my knowledge it's never stated in either film.
If a few seconds if not enough for you to consider something to be a brief moment then you really need to redefine your definition of "brief." Literally less than 15 seconds, "ThAT's NoT BRIef" boi pls.There's no way anyone can claim this is the "briefest moment of pure instinct." It looks methodical. You're so entrenched in your tribal war that you don't even know what you're arguing anymore and refuse to admit the slightest knock against the film.
I literally said it's a good scene. I was literally agreeing with him about the meta comment. The hell are you talking about?
Idc, most of the critical and audience reception has been so positive because the last two films understood the most important bits of the OT. With less focus on power levels and more focus on what makes SW so likeable in the first place.
I agree with this ! I always found it somewhat weird that The Last Jedi was the controversial one. Beyond the issues with replicating A New Hope, The Force Awakens also skimps on the physics in the universe, and renders all of the characters accomplishments in the original trilogy pretty meaningless which is pretty silly considering that is the trilogy that is essentially Star Wars.I sometimes feel I watched a different film when I see people hating on TLJ (barring a couple of issues).
Forced Awakens was without any character.
Is that how you feel about Luke or the OT? He's not alone. Others basically voiced that same feeling that the TLJ is spot on because Luke always sucked. (lol right on cue. one post above)
You need to learn to communicate with people better. This statement comes off like "I may be full of shit but I just want to ignorantly complain get off my back"I mean, I'm sure there's expanded stuff that has said as much, but so what.
You're assuming with this gotcha setup that people who think Luke was a whiny shit in the OT hate him and hate the OT and that's bullshit. I think he was a whiny shit. There is ample evidence of him whining and annoying the people around him. I love that and I love the OT and I always have and I always will. "Always sucked" is simply how you're interpreting people saying this. You didn't take the time to confirm that's the case, though.Do you even know what thread you're in? The OP even summarized it for you.
Is that how you feel about Luke or the OT? He's not alone. Others basically voiced that same feeling that the TLJ is spot on because Luke always sucked. (lol right on cue. one post above)
Does it need to be when we very very clearly see that it's still Adam Driver, a grown ass man, from multiple angles? There's zero indication that Kylo was a child unless you interpret the dialogue WAY too literally.
If a few seconds if not enough for you to consider something to be a brief moment then you really need to redefine your definition of "brief." Literally less than 15 seconds, "ThAT's NoT BRIef" boi pls.
I literally said it's a good scene. I was literally agreeing with him about the meta comment. The hell are you talking about?
Idc, most of the critical and audience reception has been so positive because the last two films understood the most important bits of the OT. With less focus on power levels and more focus on what makes SW so likeable in the first place.
Not a plothole but a badly used trick to make the "surprise, I'm not actually here" more impactful. I wouldn't look for an explanation past that, the force was nothing more than some magic tricks with a mythological theme tacked on in the past, explaining that shit in mechanical detail kinda kills the mystery about itnot a fan of TLJ at all.. or Luke's character in it.. I was wondering thought I couldnt find it anywhere.. but is it a plot hole or does Leia have force tracking location on her... or something.
How does Luke even know what planet to Force project on... Ive only seen it once so im not sure if it was answered in the movie cant remember. but I cant find it online was it just another plot hole?
No, my argument is that Luke literally didn't harm or threaten a child, he considered killing a grown man.- Again, is your argument that Luke shouldn't feel bad because Kylo is 20 something? Are you even trying to make a point? You're the one hung up on the language being used.
12 sECONDS isN'T breIF- No, that's not the briefest moment of pure instinct. Use your eyes.
Luke lives up to the legend at the end of the film. He was commenting that the fact that Luke isn't what we expected is a meta commentary in the film itself.- His comment was that Luke fails to live up to his legend. Do you agree with that?
- Again, is your argument that Luke shouldn't feel bad because Kylo is 20 something? Are you even trying to make a point? You're the one hung up on the language being used.
- No, that's not the briefest moment of pure instinct. Use your eyes.
- His comment was that Luke fails to live up to his legend. Do you agree with that?
- You don't care that this very thread stands in contrast to what you're claiming? What are you even doing?
I know you're right, op. I know it in my bones, but I still just wanted to see Luke do cool shit. That's all. Would have just been fanservice to do so? Hell yeah it would but you can have all the character study you want and still have fanservice.
Idc, most of the critical and audience reception has been so positive because the last two films understood the most important bits of the OT. With less focus on power levels and more focus on what makes SW so likeable in the first place.
He became one with the Force after the most powerful demonstration of its power. I'm not sure how anyone can be disappointed with that but y'all are entitled to have incorrect opinions that you get mad online over.
I think it's really telling that you seem to be conflating thinking a protagonist has character flaws with not liking a movie. Luke's flaws are what make the movies great. It's a feature not a bug.
There were plenty of fantasy and scifi movies before Star Wars. Some were schlocky and some were super serious, but Star Wars stood out and became a phenomenon partially because it's characters were flawed, real, and relatable. They were beat up like their ships and a little shitty around the edges like the farms and bars they lived in. In my opinion it is a foundational pillar for what makes Star Wars, Star Wars. It is about that dichotomy, that tension when normal people are called on to do extraordinary things. That is the core of the hero's journey.
Ok, the thing you are missing, and its something all the Skywalkers suffer from, is that they are easily slaved to their emotions. Anakin and Ben suffer from this the most as their rage gets a hold of them the easiest but Luke never actually masters it. Even his crowning moment, when he refuses to kill Vader, isn't an indication he has mastered it because he still fell prey to his anger. This is what's happening there. He is once again becoming a slave to his emotions.
Look closer at the scene again. Or rather, look at his eyes. He's in shock. He barely has a grip on what's he doing. His feelings have taken over and his mind is now centered on his emotion of fear. Yes, it is more "methodical" than the raw emotion of anger, but that's what fear does. It shocks you. And its not until the last moment once again that he finally breaks the hold his feelings have on him. Only this time, the last moment is still too late.
You need to learn to communicate with people better. This statement comes off like "I may be full of shit but I just want to ignorantly complain get off my back"
You're assuming with this gotcha setup that people who think Luke was a whiny shit in the OT hate him and hate the OT and that's bullshit. I think he was a whiny shit. There is ample evidence of him whining and annoying the people around him. I love that and I love the OT and I always have and I always will. "Always sucked" is simply how you're interpreting people saying this. You didn't take the time to confirm that's the case, though.
I can't even figure out what your deal is with the other stuff, seems like you're being awfully nitpicky and pedantic about a movie which has a blatant artsy slant to it - meaning some of its depictions are not meant to be true-to-life - if you didn't notice the abstract depictions of the life/death nature of the Force, or the fact that the Kylo/Luke scene you're counting seconds in is literally from a series of flashbacks from unreliable narrators. But no let's take it literally for some reason. Why is that?
You need to spend less time putting words in people's mouths and whining about tribalism, and more time making sure you understand what they're actually talking about. You're acting like a jerk.
Yeah spot on. Also OP couldn't be more right. I just rewatched the OT and then immediately TFA and TLJ. I don't dislike TFA I actually like it a fair bit but it seems a bit off tonally from the originals. TLJ on the other hand feels like a natural progression to the originals and Luke is definitely a part of that.
Haha mate I just gave my thoughts, I'm not part of "Team TLJ". Might I suggest you have a nice sit down somewhere quiet for a bit, you're far too involved.No I don't know how old he is because, to my knowledge it's never stated in either film. Nor is the timeline for how long ago this all took place. I mean, I'm sure there's expanded stuff that has said as much, but so what. And the little bit you do see of his face, Ben does look younger in that scene to me.
But here's what matters. Are you seriously trying to argue that film wants us to think that's a "grown ass man" responsible for his actions in that scene? Luke's off the hook?
There's no way anyone can claim this is the "briefest moment of pure instinct." It looks methodical. You're so entrenched in your tribal war that you don't even know what you're arguing anymore and refuse to admit the slightest knock against the film.
Case in point:
This is the post you were backing up with that
You just admitted that you don't think that, but it's team TLJ so you're quick to lend your support.
And more ridiculous:
Do you even know what thread you're in? The OP even summarized it for you.
Is that how you feel about Luke or the OT? He's not alone. Others basically voiced that same feeling that the TLJ is spot on because Luke always sucked. (lol right on cue. one post above)
And try harder than with this little league "L" stuff. You trot it out when you're the most obvious in the wrong. It's like a weird over correction or something. It's really amazing how attached your ego is in all of this and how you so desperately want to be a hero dishing out "Ls" and stuff in a relation to the Last Jedi of all things. Your blindspot is massive.
Haha mate I just gave my thoughts, I'm not part of "Team TLJ". Might I suggest you have a nice sit down somewhere quiet for a bit, you're far too involved.
Nah dude, this is an extremely cynical reading of the character in order to justify TLJ's bullshittery and character assassination.
I mean, he pulled off an incredibly impressive feat with a new use of the Force (projecting his very being from the other side of the galaxy in an illusion so realistic, you basically had to touch him to tell) to save the Resistance and restore hope to the galaxy without harming a single person in the most Jedi way possible (Yoda and Obi-Wan would be proud).
Then he becomes one with the Force, as his masters did before him.
That one moment felt more like the Jedi of the OT than the entire prequels combined, and I loved it for that.
What movie did you watch dude.
You're not a majority.....and if you got your way, it would have made the film incredibly boring. It would also be incredibly inconsistent with the plot of SW as a story overall. Like, Luke actually being there and "blowing up all the empire" as you described is just....like, that's literally the antithesis to what the force represents. Yoda puts emphasis on this in the OT and Luke himself does again in TLJ.This is what we the majority wanted. TLJ ruined Luke. Plain and simple.
I love when people pretend that they knew all along how Luke would be portrayed in this movie when there was no way of knowing it. No precedent whatsoever for this attitude of his.
Oh and I still don't buy Luke would ever leave his family, friends, and the galaxy to fend for themselves even if he was all bent out of shape due to what happened with Kylo. Think about it, he basically let Han die. As far as we knew, Luke would never do this. Half of Empire was about Luke obsessing over his friends (and they were just friends at this point, whom he'd known for about 2 years) and risking everything despite being told not to to save them. Now he has a sister, a nephew, and friends for 30 years. But I'm supposed to believe he's gonna hide away and let whatever happen to them cuz his feelings were hurt?
Yeah I think the issues that you weren't making it clear that you were talking about the film language. Eden seems like they were responding to you about lore, in the sense that you were making claims which contradicted the established facts, and they wanted to make sure you had those facts straight. That was the nature of their original comment you quoted, yes? Someone referred to Kylo as a child and Eden corrected them. Then you jumped in making it about film language, I presume, yet you didn't specify that so they (and I) thought that you were arguing with them about established facts (Kylo's literal age).So, again, I really don't see how you'd think that's me acknowledging that I don't know what I'm talking about, but for what it's worth I'll try to be better in how I respond to people.
Firstly, are you arguing that the film wants you to think Luke is justified for thinking about killing Kylo? Or not? Secondly, why are you confident of the age thing? I can see them shooting the scene with that in mind (IIRC they kept Driver fairly obscured through each recollection) due to the time lapse, or maybe they wanted him to look younger to make him look more innocent (because we must remember that this is a story told three times by two separate people, both of whom do view Luke as the bad guy in that scenario). But in terms of lore Kylo is around 29/30 in TFA (he was born a year after the Battle of Endor) and Luke has been in hiding for at the most 6 years, so that would put his age at around 23/24 or older when this event happened. A child he is not; a grown man at 23+ with that kind of attitude?... debatable. Them's the facts.I'm confident that the film doesn't want you to think of him as a grown man and Luke's justified for thinking what he does.
Yeah, I can more or less agree with that if taken at face value. There isn't a single Saga movie where a Skywalker isn't being a shit in some capacity."Luke is a shit. TLJ was very much in-character. The Skywalker men are a bunch of emotionally stunted man children given more credit than they're due because they're good at space magic."
Do you agree with that?
Okay so what I'm gathering here is that you understand why the scene was likely presented the way it was, but you decided to start a pedantic line of "discussion" with Crossing Eden over it anyway for.... what purpose?I'm not sure I'm totally following you, but I believe my above comment to Xaszatm address this. I agree that it's a style choice, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't come off as at odds with what's being spoken. And I'm not the one counting seconds and being literal. That's Crossing Eden. I'm simply talking about what's shown on screen. I also think I referred to this as a "slight knock" earlier, so yeah, kind of nitpicky.
Crossing Eden's last reply to you has still made it clear you are not understanding what points they are making, or at least where they are coming from. You should do better to clarify these things before you let conversations get to where that one did. As for the second part, nah, not when you got on that "team TLJ" nonsense. And not when you're starting arguments with people using premises you don't even care about in the way you're arguing about them. Some of y'all think everyone's okay with that kind of talk and a lot of people aren't. It's a shitty way to discuss things with strangers.Also, and I don't mean this to be snarky, but couldn't this be turned around and said to you not understanding what I'm talking about? Also it's really not worth getting worked up over. It's a discussion. It's fun to talk about Star Wars, even with all the crazy takes people have.
I really like this post. You pretty much hit every note on why someone who is/was a Luke fan would be upset with ROTJ.Putting himself in harms way to save others (particularly friends/family) is intrinsic to Luke's character.
Yes he starts off weak and whiny, but that's the part of him that changes and develops. His character arc spans all three movies.
He never loses his 'faith in his friends' and his drive to protect them. That is his core, and it's thematically central to the OT. The villain even spells this out to the audience, and assumes it's not a strength, but a weakness (it's both). Taking that away from Luke without proper development is obviously going to rub some people the wrong way
In the OT, Luke:
Runs back to the farm to save his Aunt and Uncle despite being told not to (fails)
Runs off to Alderaan to help a beautiful woman he's never met with no understanding of what he's getting into
Is the only character to run towards Obi-Wan to help him despite being told not to, refuses to leave until Ben's ghost tells him to go
Takes on the Death Star with no understanding of what he's getting into
Does all he can to pull Dak out from under that AT-AT (avenges him on foot)
Abandon's his training in order to save his friends despite being told not to (fails) with no understanding of what he's getting into
Spends months training and plotting to save the friend he failed to protect
Keeps his promise to another friend, and returns to watch him die
Gives himself up to the Emperor, to save his friends and their mission, his fate uncertain
Gives himself up to the Emperor, in an act of selflessness for his father, his fate uncertain
Luke is selfless to a fault, values interpersonal connections and causes over his own well being, and is motivated to develop into a better person solely by his failings to help those he cares about. These are intrinsic qualities that do not change in his character throughout the OT. Rather, his arc is him learning from his failures and growing stronger so that he can better serve his desire to protect those he loves. His heart is always in the right place, but his ability is lacking and he's a bit too reckless. The latter are where he develops
TLJ did not get Luke wrong because he should be space Goku. Luke was never painted as an amazing warrior. It's his friendship and his selflessness that drive his victories.
TLJ got Luke wrong because he gave up on the galaxy, and more importantly on his friends, which is particularly jarring considering he's giving up on a situation he feels responsible for creating. It got Luke wrong because of a silly contrivance where he almost murders his nephew, which would've been best not shown.
Yes, Luke can have regrets, he can fail, he can flounder, he can have moments of weakness. He did all of these things throughout the OT. He shouldn't be perfect. But we still expect him to try, and to correct his mistakes. If you're going to take away his selflessness, you're going to need to do a lot of legwork to get the audience on board.
What they did to Luke would be similar to a Leia who is no longer a part of, nor cares about, the rebellion. Maybe she's lounging in a lazy river on Coruscant, sipping mimosas, fat off her government pensions from the New Republic, part of the faction that downplays the impending threat of the FO. Yes, somebody could have written such a Leia into the ST. After all, it's been 30 years and 'people change'. But take away the core of her character, the spunky can-do attitude and devotion to her cause, and fans of the character are going to want answers
The man who played Luke wanted Boba Fett to be Luke's mother.the man who played Luke hates how Luke was portrayed in TLJ
I don't know what else you people want
Disney Star Wars, at it's best, will only ever be fan fiction.Both TFA and, to a larger extent, TLJ, are the perfect mixture of wrong: they slavishly adhere to the surface-level aesthetic, making them poor remakes of the OT at best, while at the same time betraying all the core values and ethos of the series.
Unmaking character progress for the main OT characters like Han (TFA) and Luke (TLJ) and story progress (state of the Galaxy) is one of their many failiings. For all its failings, the Prequels never strayed that far.
The ST will stand as a monument to creative bankrupcy of big corporations, the guns-for-hire anything goes attitude of those they employ and the rebelious nihilism without a cause of one Rian Johnson (and, to a lesser extent, JJs; though JJs is just an unintentional by-product of his theme-park-ride mystery box approach to movies) .
What about everything in TFA about how he was a threat to the first order and needed to be found, or the first order would reign supreme? TFA hyped him up of significant importance, Snoke feared him. Then nothing in TLJ to follow through on that,
TLJ suffers from Halo 5 syndrome, had the characters all stayed in bed and not done anything the film would have ended the same way. Rey, Finn and Poe accomplish nothing in the film. Nothing happens to them. They all end up exactly where they started. Rey is still learning the ways of the Force, Finn has learned to join the Alliance, and Poe.... just wants to fight more. Oh and Luke is still irrelevant to the story.