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So China, what can be done?
- Thread starter Cosmo Kramer
- Start date
Again, are you suggesting sanctions?
How are sanctions gonna achieve any of that?
Seriously, you think that if you persuade the US government to take an even more aggressive stance against China they're gonna condition the removal of the sanction in being nicer to a Muslim independence movement in central Asia?
What you're doing is trying to make life worse for the people in China because you think it will make them martyr themselves for a geopolitical goal you have. And you know, if that shit had any chance to work we could've have discussed if it is worth it, or if the US should really be the country that decide what is the correct level of human right abuse we allow before we slap sanctions on a country.
But it fucking won't.
You gonna blow up the world's economy and then the people of China, you know, the people you are supposedly trying to help, are gonna have to deal with high unemployment on top of other problems they have.
The US already tried to not have any economic relationship with China and it didn't help anyone.
We had a thread several months ago showing most of the developed nations in the world aren't huge fans of China if you go by their citizens.
Plus you have trade deals like the TPP that existed primarily to fight Chinese economic influence which was going pretty well for the US till Trump pulled out.
The main parts of the world that like China are the parts getting shitty loans from them.
A recent era thread said otherwise. The only countries way into China were other compromised authoritarian states and their neocolonial subjects. There's a real opportunity to unite against China in the WTO that is being flubbed spectacularly.
Depends on the source I guess but I remember a thread showing half the world in support for China.
If the terms and conditions of playing nice with China is don't publicly badmouth their domestic oppression, then for a lot of nations that is supremely preferable to "play nice with the USA or we'll bomb, invade, or politically disrupt your country".
Probably depends on how you ask the question but I can't imagine recent events in Hong Kong andthe west have done wonders for their Worldwide popularity
or China offering better overall services instead of american dollars to the higher ups that don't use that money to benefit their respective countries and pocket it all
Part of Hong Kong's problem is their own corruption and not what China is proposing to them.
Yep.
And talking about regime change as though it's some easy miracle cure - as if the last two decades haven't happened and shown how massively that can backfire.
Maximize ties with other, smaller countries that can replace some portion of their manufacturing, and be ready to punish China economically when they pull stuff like this, even if it hurts us too. There's no changing the political character of China in the short-to-medium term, but we need to push back until we can some sort of understanding that they don't get to act out against citizens of other countries for speech that is perfectly legal in those countries. Whether or not that's something they'd ever be willing to concede, who knows, but the idea of China successfully exporting their censorship regime because everyone is too scared of losing their money is pretty scary.
Simple thought is generally reactionary and fascistic by nature.
That's garbage... Stop speaking nonsense. The leadership in Hong Kong has screwed over the masses there for so long and hoarded everything.
That's on the Chinese government. We can't allow shitty governments to continue a genocide just because their average citizen might get hurt economically. If the CCP dont want their people to suffer, maybe they should stop ethnic cleansing minorities?
So you're saying it's only a matter of time for when Hong Kong is considered merged back with China.
The problem is they do want their people to suffer. What do you think the fucking genocide is? It's inflicting suffering on their own people.
A lot of the comments in this thread are super disturbing
Ah yes, because era is truly representative, give me a break.
You know, one can almost argue that it would be better if that was case.
But what HK does is to let "business interests" select half their legislature and their governor. It would be like if the US let the chamber of commerce select half of congress and the president.
And yeah, Beijing is okay with this arrangement because they know they guarantee them a pro Beijing majority. But those people also fuck Hong Kong in way more boring and specific ways, but they are pretty fucking meaningful if you live there.
Look at the five demands - they're not asking for the removal of Xi.
They want Carrie Lam out and they want real proper democratic election to the legislature.
Pretending that Carrie Lam is just a helpless puppet who must obey because Beijing got a gun to her head is letting her off the hook.
I can't tell if you're serious but that's an awful idea.
You need to be able to communicate with a country like China, even if you're only willing to look at them through the adversarial lenses.
User banned (permanent): dismissing concerns around genocide and hand-waving oppression; numerous prior bans for similar inflammatory behaviour
This is hogwash. The people there are living good if you're slightly below middle class and up. The way of living there is actually pretty solid
Is captialism alive? Then nothing can be done. Everyone is too afaraid of losing a market of 1 Billion + people, you stand against them you lose a lot of $$$
This is the sad truth.
They're a nuclear armed country with a top-tier military controlled by a single state party with one of the largest world economies. Nothing can be truly done, the situation can only be resolved internally. But, the prospects of that is slim.
It's actually quite brutally sad to see what is happening to the Uighur and know that not only can nothing be done, but that China will succeed in what they are attempting, the whole sale destruction of an entire culture. It's straight out of 1984, except maybe even more outlandish in its evil. And just like in 1984, Big Brother will win out. The Uighurs are a minority that even the main Chinese population all feel need should conform to the rest of the State. So, China will succeed in stamping out their society and culture.
Hong Kong has a sliver of hope because the citizens there are actually fighting back. However, I don't see a realistic future where mainland China just allows them to operate with their own rules and systems. So, the result is either full scale Civil War with Hong Kong or HK accepting the boot of mainland China. A full-scale Civil War wouldn't be successful without foreign support, mainly U.S. support. But, there is absolutely no way he U.S. would be willing to put boots on the ground to defend HK from China. Thus, a Civil War is doomed to fail.
At best, HK can delay the transition that the mainland is demanding at the moment, but they can't really delay the inevitable. Unless the citizens within mainland China seek to push back against their government, nothing can really be done about the situation with China.
NO thanks, and China isn't a part of Taiwan either, that's KMT rubbish
HK was considered to have been handed back to China, so as far as China is concerned, HK is like Hawaii to them. Just another state. In China's eyes, other people are interfering in a domestic issue. So, it'd be like if France decided to back some protestors in TX on their right to secession. Not saying that is what is happening, saying what it looks like for the Chinese government. They're not happy that other countries are interfering with their own governance, basically.
Yeah, China also considers Taiwan to be a part of China. In fact, even like sixty years ago, Taiwan considered itself to be the "head" of China (including mainland). I would argue that Taiwan has had enough time to develop differently from mainland and while the majority of people in Taiwan are Chinese by blood, that the culture is still not quite the same. Of course, you could make the argument that in the US, the cultures between LA and rural Mississippi are not the same, either.
Since we're all incensed with the atrocities being done to them, we should put our money where our mouth is. US should offer political asylum to all Uyghurs and all HK citizens that request it
Only if you don't find yourself in the government's crosshairs. The Chinese government imprisons anyone who dissents with the government. They were performing forced abortions on people (even Han Chinese people) for having too many children. They fined people like 5 years salary for having an extra kid. All of these oppressive policies are being enacted on their own people. The idea that China is going to relinquish their iron clad grip on their people because of suffering is idiotic. They are the ones inflicting the suffering.
I don't have a solution
I'm not sure how you're going to square that with your country also keeping kids in cages
Ideally the current power hungry authoritarian regime would turn into an altruistic, benevolent one that respects its people and cultures, cease its expansionist ideology and unite with the rest of the free world. As would Russia. And...well, a lot of other smaller countries. And the US would stop its own injustices separating families and the other heinous shit it's doing right this moment, and everyone would disarm, live in harmony, and armed conflict will become a relic of the past as we look to an interstellar future.
It's not happening.
It's not happening.
This is a recent pew research piece
As you can see, its not just authoritarian goverments. I can also speak for what i see in my country which is not in the list(Perú) and others in South America, and let me tell you, people here LOVE China.
Its mostly western old powers that have a negative view on China as far as i can see, the rest of the world is either ambivalent or loves them.
Not sure if this has been posted:
Fitbit will move manufacturing out of China (namely over tariffs): https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/09/fitbit-to-move-manufacturing-out-of-china-to-avoid-tariffs.html
Fitbit will move manufacturing out of China (namely over tariffs): https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/09/fitbit-to-move-manufacturing-out-of-china-to-avoid-tariffs.html
Ok, there sure are a lot of simplistic solutions being posted for an incredibly complex problem.
The world economy is deeply embedded in the PRC, including that of the US and it's allies. Meanwhile, China has spent the past half-decade building development networks across South-East and Central Asia. Unless the US can offer equal or superior incentives to China (pro tip: it can't), sanctions are unlikely to be effective.
Overthrowing the central government is a pipe dream when we still don't even understand the basic structure of the CCP or its security apparatus.
More broadly, the relatively impotent impact of China's stock market crisis on popular support for the CCP demonstrated that nationalism is the be-all-and-end-all of Chinese domestic politics. The CCP has spent the better part of two decades cultivating a humiliation narrative which posits that China is and has been for the past 150 years, a victim of Western imperialism.
Trump's trade war emboldens this narrative. One need only follow the internal media coverage to understand this.
The future of China-US and China-world relations is a matter of heated debate in international relations theory. For the record, the two dominant theories are as follows:
Neorealism - famously argued by Mearsheimer, it is the belief that China and the United Stated are destined for war. This is neither a function of human rights abuses nor economics but the security dilemma produced by a rising power. It is by far the most popular theory.
Liberal internationalism - China can be socialised into international norms and reformulated as a status quo power.
Why is the latter scenario becoming increasingly unlikely? In short, because of US isolationism and American unwillingness to adhere to international norms itself.
Consider the following. Why should China adhere to UNCLOS decisions vis-a-vis the South-China Sea when the US hasn't ratified the agreement?
Trump's withdrawal from the TPP is a catastrophe from a geopolitical perspective. The US had (still has) the capacity to balance against the PRC by leveraging multilateral partnerships with regional middle powers such as Australia, Korea, Japan, Indonesia etc. The result of the US' backtrack on the pivot to Asia is immediately observable. China has dramatically expanded the reach of its economic hard power via the BRI.
The point comes down to the following. China needs to realise sufficient incentive from the prevailing liberal order to ensure their compliance to liberal norms. 'America Alone' isn't the answer.
The world economy is deeply embedded in the PRC, including that of the US and it's allies. Meanwhile, China has spent the past half-decade building development networks across South-East and Central Asia. Unless the US can offer equal or superior incentives to China (pro tip: it can't), sanctions are unlikely to be effective.
Overthrowing the central government is a pipe dream when we still don't even understand the basic structure of the CCP or its security apparatus.
More broadly, the relatively impotent impact of China's stock market crisis on popular support for the CCP demonstrated that nationalism is the be-all-and-end-all of Chinese domestic politics. The CCP has spent the better part of two decades cultivating a humiliation narrative which posits that China is and has been for the past 150 years, a victim of Western imperialism.
Trump's trade war emboldens this narrative. One need only follow the internal media coverage to understand this.
The future of China-US and China-world relations is a matter of heated debate in international relations theory. For the record, the two dominant theories are as follows:
Neorealism - famously argued by Mearsheimer, it is the belief that China and the United Stated are destined for war. This is neither a function of human rights abuses nor economics but the security dilemma produced by a rising power. It is by far the most popular theory.
Liberal internationalism - China can be socialised into international norms and reformulated as a status quo power.
Why is the latter scenario becoming increasingly unlikely? In short, because of US isolationism and American unwillingness to adhere to international norms itself.
Consider the following. Why should China adhere to UNCLOS decisions vis-a-vis the South-China Sea when the US hasn't ratified the agreement?
Trump's withdrawal from the TPP is a catastrophe from a geopolitical perspective. The US had (still has) the capacity to balance against the PRC by leveraging multilateral partnerships with regional middle powers such as Australia, Korea, Japan, Indonesia etc. The result of the US' backtrack on the pivot to Asia is immediately observable. China has dramatically expanded the reach of its economic hard power via the BRI.
The point comes down to the following. China needs to realise sufficient incentive from the prevailing liberal order to ensure their compliance to liberal norms. 'America Alone' isn't the answer.
It seems like a number of companies are willing to move manufacturing out of China. I mean there's nothing specifically special about what China does manufacturing wise. You can move to any number of other Asian countries in the region for cheap labor if that's what companies are fixated on.
Nintendo moved some Switch production out of China already to avoid tariff issues and Foxconn was looking at moving iPhone production out to Taiwan.
Nintendo moved some Switch production out of China already to avoid tariff issues and Foxconn was looking at moving iPhone production out to Taiwan.
Other Asian countries despise China's govt. to a similar extent as Europe and the US.
China's economy will probably collapse within the next decade or so as more and more manufacturers pull out. It is almost inevitable at this point and it is going to suck for everyone.
When China's economy finally collapses that is when the best chance for change in that country will happen.
When China's economy finally collapses that is when the best chance for change in that country will happen.
I mean it could be a windfall for countries like India, Vietnam, Mexico, Taiwan, etc. that probably stand to have production shifted over that way.
So...for the moment at least, the US needs a competent government that will actually follow rules and not throw its weight around wantonly, and then a peaceful future might become slightly more plausible.
They are already starting to take away China's manufacturing, but when an economy that large collapses, the world economy will go into a recession.
World economies go into a recession from time to time anyway.
Growing up in the 90s, every electronic device I remember had "Made In Japan" on it basically, now almost nothing has that on it, not even Nintendo or Sony products.
These things can shift, India, Vietnam, Thailand, Taiwan, Mexico, etc. can all do the same thing China does, there's nothing proprietary or special about cheap labor.
Yeah, I'm not saying China's economic collapse will be a disaster for the world or even the US, just that it will suck for a while. Also probably devalue the USD a little bit as China tries to dump its bonds and USD cash reserves, but the world will recover and hopefully a better government can rise from the ashes of China.
China's big issue is that it's basically a big bubble that as a command economy China has has basically kept alive for 40 years, but as the net exports drop, they won't be able to keep up and when it bursts it's gonna be felt worldwide. You think the trade war is hurting the US? It's much worse for China and the US knows this which is why they are not backing down at all.
Arguably this doesn't matter. Read Xi's public commentary at the CCP conferences or the New Asian Security Concept.
China doesn't want friends. The word 'alliance' rarely appears in official policy documents. 'Partner', however, does. China views Asia in terms of business transactions. The PRC has immense economic hard power and it's using it to fill a development gap which has remained unfulfilled by the IMF and the US. The Sri Lankan government may not like the Chinese government, but they sure do like the billions in investment.
A lot of these jobs will be automated within that decade and China themselves would probably want to shift away from manufacturing. What China has at the moment is infrastructure and scale, it would take a while to build up similar capacity elsewhere.
I don't know about a 'collapse' but the trade war has made it pretty easy to feed a nationalistic narrative to the slowing economy. Add more sanctions and the anger in China would just as likely be directed towards the west as it would at CCP.