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anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,914
Maryland
You have played with me for one game, and a cult game at that. So the basis of comparison isn't huge.

Second, if you felt I always behaved logically, consider me surprised. I explicitly eschewed logic to press on EC, Vere, and Blarg to see how they responded to questioning.

Third, I don't think these games acknowledge the downside of meta-reads. The concept that the actions of players can be compared to their prior games' town or mafia actions assumes two things. First, that they're incapable of subtlety to obfuscate their behavior irrespective of alignment. Second, that they're incapable of learning and adjusting from past play. Both of these lie on a spectrum of naiveté and hubris, IMO.

Finally, I was town last game, and am town this game too.
Forgot my other point - you state that my behavior is illogical, but since I posted that, several others have questioned ATP's line of reasoning independent of me. There also seems to be an aspect of emotion running through this particular confrontation, which is an example of the absence of logic that seems to concern you.
 

Ephidel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,738
HPSauce
What are your current thoughts on LP and Malus?
Yeah I'm only asking this because aside from Launch they were the other leading trains at EoD but I want to get your thoughts on something other than ATP and that seems as good a place as any to start.
I know you asked what Fate thought of LP yesterday but I don't think you ever gave your opinions there.

Is there anyone you feel good about today?


FateShirou
Yesterday you went from thinking that wee was "playing too much on the nose for their "town" game" to defending her by declaring that's just how she is as town when I commented on how determined she was to see the HP vote happen.
What are your thoughts on her today?

You didn't like Royal/Leo going for LP yesterday, and you still seem down on Royal today. What are your current thoughts on Leo?


malus
Towards EOD you asked if it was too late to swing back to LP. I don't think you actually commented on him during the day (except to list him with the other low powers).
Today you said he's probably your top scum.
Is that just off the back of the votes? Or do you think there's actually something scummy about the way he's playing? (Or the way others are playing in relation to him?)
I know you already said you plan to catch up but I'm interested in what you come back with.
 

FateShirou

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,090
Even though Blarg's votes didn't stay there at day end absolutely. Blarg is a king of gambits and I wouldn't put it past him
Nice commentary zipped, if you think blarg is scum...are you going to push em?

Top Scum: Probably LP after the EoD, but I'll have to catch up to form a solid opinion.
for what? calling you out for your last second vote switch to LP?
Zipped (voted Jman): I'm really not a fan of this vote. That wagon was doa and Zipped must have known that, so it looks like he just wanted to park it away from any vote activity before dipping. Can't really fault him for staying out of the EoD shenanigans though since he wasn't there.
Thats suprising from someone who swapped to LP who had what? 2 votes on them at EoD
anyways, you think zipped is scum?

And yes I'd most likely go Ephi, she hasn't really solved or probed any hard for the past two days and it's not giving me good vibes. The fact that people aren't looking at other angles besides HP worries me greatly because it just gives me the idea that scum is staying quiet since we haven't come close to finding any of them. We have lots of vote movement at EoD, we had four possible wagons and no one is willing to put down any reads or vote analysis?
you are 100% scum in this game
all you been doing is saying how town isnt doing this and town isnt doing that, why dont you become the change
anex did a vote analysis on the movement at EoD why dont you look at that
whats stopping you from doing one?
hell, whats stopping you from question ephidel
Yesterday you went from thinking that wee was "playing too much on the nose for their "town" game" to defending her by declaring that's just how she is as town when I commented on how determined she was to see the HP vote happen.
Wee acting like this is how they play and i saw it first hand when i was their partner in FGO2

What are your thoughts on her today?
I'd like it if they stopped tunnelling so hard on HP and went after their LP read
but getting wee to do that is harder than getting a golden retriever to stop eating
You didn't like Royal/Leo going for LP yesterday, and you still seem down on Royal today. What are your current thoughts on Leo?
You guys made a meta read on Royal, stating thats just how they play mafia, to be is a bit lame and I think they are scum with the low effort reads and general commentry
I already said this about Leo
Are you saying HP's flip is connected to Ephidel and LP?
what kind of info do u want out of blarg?
you are giving scum vibes off this post Leo
if you arnt attacking any1 ur scum
and ur really smiley this game, even that softball to jman was softer than cheesecake
 

A Wild Shark Appears

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Nov 6, 2017
1,421
You have played with me for one game, and a cult game at that. So the basis of comparison isn't huge.

Second, if you felt I always behaved logically, consider me surprised. I explicitly eschewed logic to press on EC, Vere, and Blarg to see how they responded to questioning.

Third, I don't think these games acknowledge the downside of meta-reads. The concept that the actions of players can be compared to their prior games' town or mafia actions assumes two things. First, that they're incapable of subtlety to obfuscate their behavior irrespective of alignment. Second, that they're incapable of learning and adjusting from past play. Both of these lie on a spectrum of naiveté and hubris, IMO.

Finally, I was town last game, and am town this game too.
Noted

Vote:Blargonaut
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,075
Okay, reading through the past 12 hours again and a couple things I want to pick up on...

I was feeling dizzy at the day end and couldn't concentrate on writing, so I had to bail out after my longer post. Don't really know how I would've reacted, since I generally see double as a town power. But that last second decision felt bad to read.

Saw as the kill screams framing or switcheroo.

My gf just decided to check her email before she goes to bed (a bad habbit) and got the job offer at the university she wanted, so see you all tomorrow, we have to celebrate now :D
First, congrats to your gf Yuta. Just a ping reminder when you're back to talk about your Blarg vote EOD. Also any reads?
 

Neki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,793
Nice commentary zipped, if you think blarg is scum...are you going to push em?


for what? calling you out for your last second vote switch to LP?

Thats suprising from someone who swapped to LP who had what? 2 votes on them at EoD
anyways, you think zipped is scum?


you are 100% scum in this game
all you been doing is saying how town isnt doing this and town isnt doing that, why dont you become the change
anex did a vote analysis on the movement at EoD why dont you look at that
whats stopping you from doing one?
hell, whats stopping you from question ephidel

Wee acting like this is how they play and i saw it first hand when i was their partner in FGO2


I'd like it if they stopped tunnelling so hard on HP and went after their LP read
but getting wee to do that is harder than getting a golden retriever to stop eating

You guys made a meta read on Royal, stating thats just how they play mafia, to be is a bit lame and I think they are scum with the low effort reads and general commentry
I already said this about Leo
I mean I've already questioned Ephi about her EoD and I said I didn't like it.

I've already posted so much reads and analysis and you're refusing to engage with any of it. Fate I think you're letting your emotions blind your reasoning and it's only day 2. You're so tunneled on me being scum I'm not sure what you're going to do when I flip. If you think I'm 100% scum you're 100% wrong. I know this is your playstyle but this is more loose cannon than you usually are. I thought you'd have a better idea of my playstyle by now but your meta read of me is poor.
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,075
I am being a lawyer trying to Prove HP's innocents by having him answer questions to show the thread why we Don't need to worry about him for now.

We need to first establish that HP has a second shot.

now we need HP to Promise to not use that second shot until we are in LYLO cause No way scum has a double vote in LYLO.

If he Follows orders we can trust his claim more.

If he follows instructions However his Bullet does not work in Lylo We Execute on the spot.

There are other factors that may sway the view of HP's innocents one way or the other along the way but we deal with that as it comes up.
Okay, this jman logic. Reallllly not vibing with it.

Your debate on what is and isn't balanced with the double vote is based on half knowledge. You can't make the assumption a scum DV isn't balanced because you don't know what the balance even is. Who knows what powers town has vs scum.

So writing off HP until D5/6 is really risky and you're putting way too much trust into him. Sure, let's just trust potential scum on their word alone. I think it's a recipe for disaster. At least offing him sooner rather than later gives us something to look at in his interactions.

For what it's worth, this reminds me of town!jman from Scooby Doo 2 where you were equally trusting of the wrong people.
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,075
I mean you and ATP are insist this day be about HP, not me. Here's what my initial impressions after EoD ended

royal - going for low post voters, seems lazy
I want to pick up on this too, sorry for keep coming back to you Neki lol

This really stands out. Why is Royal going for low posters lazy when you were thinking the same?
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,075
Also in that same post, you had nothing to say about Leo or Ambulance because they weren't "there for the whole day". But nobody was. And that seems contradictory to your rule on voting out low posters.

Low posters are low because they aren't there contributing. But Leo and Ambulance weren't there. So were they not contributing? If they were, why do you have nothing to note about them like you do for everyone else?
 

Neki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,793
I mean because I'm putting myself out there, posting and putting out lots of infos and my reads so people can more easily dissect my reasoning and strategy. I think it's just poor town play to go after someone and not be willing to back it up. I'm trying to engage with all of you instead of taking a backseat.

I'm getting very tired of explaining myself to five or six people now, the fact that I'm getting probed for being engaged just makes me not want to post and be lazy. That's not optimal town play but at this point my sanity is running low because I'm tired of the discussing ultimately circling back to me for trying to engage with people rather than lurk for two days.
 

Neki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,793
At this point you either think I'm scum or you don't, please ask someone else because the scum team is just not exactly me or HP, please find other people.
 

FateShirou

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,090
You're so tunneled on me being scum I'm not sure what you're going to do when I flip.
hmm i wonder what we do when someone we think is scum flips
If you think I'm 100% scum you're 100% wrong. I know this is your playstyle but this is more loose cannon than you usually are. I thought you'd have a better idea of my playstyle by now but your meta read of me is poor.
if you think I have a meta read on you then you are off

and comeon neki, stop stroking your on tail with comments like "posting and putting out lots of infos"
 

Neki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,793
ATP if you're scum you're doing a great job of being unhelpful and antagonizing while not getting voted off and I will congratulate you after the game, if you are town then I have no words for your play right now.
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,075
Is this your meta read on JMan?
Whats your read on Leo?
and also give me ur top 3 scum right now
For now, yeah. jman's defence of HP is a bit much, but I don't necessarily read it as scummy.

Leo is a lighter town read because I like how they've been pushing today.

Scum picks are a bit obvious right now, but: Neki, HP, anex

Town picks would be: Wee, you, ATP, Leo. Everyone else is various shades of null.
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,075
At this point you either think I'm scum or you don't, please ask someone else because the scum team is just not exactly me or HP, please find other people.
This is weak and you know it. We have a couple of leads that are worth following and unfortunately you're one of them.

I'm trying to engage with you but your story has holes. I've already mentioned you a few posts above. Here's a follow up on the Ambulance thing.

So you just said in this day phase that Ambulance didn't give you enough to go on. But in your D1 breakdown on people, you said this:
Ambulance:
asking questions, prodding people. much more active and confident than I usually see him
So was he active or not active? What do you actually think of Ambulance?
 

FateShirou

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,090
For now, yeah. jman's defence of HP is a bit much, but I don't necessarily read it as scummy.

Leo is a lighter town read because I like how they've been pushing today.

Scum picks are a bit obvious right now, but: Neki, HP, anex

Town picks would be: Wee, you, ATP, Leo. Everyone else is various shades of null.
bo, I called out leo for not pushing and that they are scum
why havnt you pushed back at my read of them if you got them as a "lighter" town read
What about anex do you find scummy?
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,075
bo, I called out leo for not pushing and that they are scum
why havnt you pushed back at my read of them if you got them as a "lighter" town read
What about anex do you find scummy?
I can only look in so many directions at once, and I'm already focusing on Neki, HP, Yuta, and jman for comments that get my attention. And - don't take offence - but your personal read of someone I only lightly town read is not at the top of my list right now.

Anex's vote on Launch at day end was a bit convenient. I had a vibe about anex all D1, but couldn't point to any specific post why. It's one I want to explore more but not right now.

I love that the working theory is that mafia is so dumb that they'll come rushing to the defense of an almost eliminated fellow mafia at the start of D2 after he has one vote. This is a level of ineptitude only equaled by the previous presidential administration.
I dunno, I've been that dumb scum before lol
 

FateShirou

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,090
Anex's vote on Launch at day end was a bit convenient. I had a vibe about anex all D1, but couldn't point to any specific post why. It's one I want to explore more but not right now.
is it that you dont have any specifics or is it because you cant come up with anything?
I can read this as scum trying to piece together why player x is scum and their failure in doing so is resulting "please wait for reasoning"
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,075
is it that you dont have any specifics or is it because you cant come up with anything?
I can read this as scum trying to piece together why player x is scum and their failure in doing so is resulting "please wait for reasoning"
No, I'll freely admit it's spurious and based on a gut reaction, which is why I'm not chasing it. I've not played with anex so I'm getting a feel for him. What I'm seeing might just be a new person trying to find their groove in the community and I've been there.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
So basically no matter how HP flips, you want to flip LP too? Why not go for LP now?
Yes, i am ok with going for LP now. I'm observing his comments so far and they haven't hit what i am used to seeing from town!lp, which usually includes like….new tangental thoughts that nobody has mentioned and that can be logically tracked, here he feels self limited, that's the best way i can put it
 

malus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,947
for what? calling you out for your last second vote switch to LP?
Not exclusively, but it also plays a role. He's also one of the people who put his vote down early enough and just watched the EoD go by without interfering. That in my opinion is typical Scum behavior.
Thats suprising from someone who swapped to LP who had what? 2 votes on them at EoD
anyways, you think zipped is scum?
To be clear I swapped to LP to make it a viable wagon again, because I didn't feel alright with the Launch train and it was my intention to get people to vote there. That's different to going completely off wagon to someone that had 0 votes on them.
And yes, Zipped is in my lean Scum pile.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
I read some of HP's posts and he does provide reads so I'm not going to vote there.
Here's the post that really GOT me before, with LP.

in fact, HP provided reads on FOUR players, and TWO of them were selected by someone else who pinged him to comment on those particular people.

so for LP to think that counts as "reads" indicates he wasn't reading the game properly, or he is defending HP for other reasons. If he isn't a scummate with HP tho, he could in theory be lazy town i guess, which is why my order of operations was HP first, it gives me solid info on both neki and LP. And some others who switched votes at the last minute to kill launch, like blarg etc.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
For other players:

Fate reads like his town* self to me.
Ephidel has improved and I can see her as town, her d2 has been more involved than her d1, I still want to see her reads but her questioning is good.
Bojack is a complete null to me, i have not noticed him do anything outside of today's tunnel.
Blarg has posted some youtube and I'm not translating them today, if he can't learn to use his words I'll just leave him in my PoE, I have work to do.
ATP has been helpful after giving up his obstructive behavior. He could be town, or I could have helped him improve his scum game no end, you're welcome community.
Royal isn't here, I hope he arrives soon.

*note: wee has never seen a town Fate
 

Lone_Prodigy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,425
Malus is so full of contradictions he can't possibly be scum. Plus I gave him an olive branch and he didn't take it so this is just unfortunate town tunneling.

I find it surprising that wee is getting town reads when they posted gifs well into D1 and now wants to set up a train because it can't possibly be TvT times whatever? Usually with town wee I find something I agree with and I'm not seeing that here.

Fate is more involved than I've seen him, but focusing in on a handful of targets that don't reply with the same vigour means he can act as the aggressor. Also don't know why he kept saying Neki is neutral.
 
Oct 26, 2017
12,561
UK
Malus is so full of contradictions he can't possibly be scum. Plus I gave him an olive branch and he didn't take it so this is just unfortunate town tunneling.

I find it surprising that wee is getting town reads when they posted gifs well into D1 and now wants to set up a train because it can't possibly be TvT times whatever? Usually with town wee I find something I agree with and I'm not seeing that here.

Fate is more involved than I've seen him, but focusing in on a handful of targets that don't reply with the same vigour means he can act as the aggressor. Also don't know why he kept saying Neki is neutral.

So you think wee is scum? Or at least you lean that way?
 

Royal_Flush

Member
Oct 25, 2017
879
Sorry for being absent, I have about an hour of train journey now, only skimmed the thread so far, hope the internet connection is stable...
 

Lone_Prodigy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,425
Here's the post that really GOT me before, with LP.

in fact, HP provided reads on FOUR players, and TWO of them were selected by someone else who pinged him to comment on those particular people.

so for LP to think that counts as "reads" indicates he wasn't reading the game properly, or he is defending HP for other reasons. If he isn't a scummate with HP tho, he could in theory be lazy town i guess, which is why my order of operations was HP first, it gives me solid info on both neki and LP. And some others who switched votes at the last minute to kill launch, like blarg etc.

What about that post was incorrect? I read some, not all of HP's posts. I saw he had reads, which is more than others have contributed. I didn't do a deep dive to see that half of those reads were under duress, which doesn't invalidate them. I was fine with my Launch vote and didn't see a reason to move it.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
I didn't do a deep dive to see that half of those reads were under duress, which doesn't invalidate them.
And i acknowledged that you could just be lazy town.

reads under duress ARE different than spontaneous reads….why would you even argue they aren't?

Yes, on d1, lots of ppl have direction problems, which is why i push for specific reads as a d1 tactic, and that could be part of it too.

Why don't you try being ENGAGED town tho? How we supposed to read you if you don't towntell?
 

Lone_Prodigy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,425
And i acknowledged that you could just be lazy town.

reads under duress ARE different than spontaneous reads….why would you even argue they aren't?

Yes, on d1, lots of ppl have direction problems, which is why i push for specific reads as a d1 tactic, and that could be part of it too.

Why don't you try being ENGAGED town tho? How we supposed to read you if you don't towntell?

You're right, reads under duress are actually more valuable than spontaneous ones because they're more selective and force someone to potentially evaluate a scum mate. Is that what you meant?
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
You're right, reads under duress are actually more valuable than spontaneous ones because they're more selective and force someone to potentially evaluate a scum mate. Is that what you meant?
I didn't not mean that.
It's another reason I pick reads for people.

However your admitted failure to read ALL the things already says you're only Lazy Town AT BEST, so get on the ball.
 

Zippedpinhead

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,749
Sure. I also want to vote Zipped because he's being unhelpful but that's sadly NAI for him.
giphy.gif


Lies, I'm trying to explain my reads on the few players I have them on, while rereading the thread for expanded reads all while having conversation with FateShirou.

youre-a-scum-dislike.gif

at least that is how you are feeling to me with this lazy Meta read on me. I mean I know its common scum meta to bus town zipped day 2, but at least pay attention to what I'm doing in thread.
 

Royal_Flush

Member
Oct 25, 2017
879
But, general thing: Over the course of yesterday, especially close to EOD, HP went from "having fun shitposting" to a complete tonal shift. I didn't do a proper reread of the whole situation but from memory I don't recall an increase in helpfulness along with that shift. Could be frustrated Town, but I lean more towards frustrated Scum tonally.

I don't see the huge issue with a Scum double vote. Which also means jman's plan is completely insane. Well, it would be even if multiple Double Vote was a 100% Town aligned power. There are a shitton of things that could go wrong, plus we miss out on analysis based off of an known alignment.

Which brings me to the next point: There was some interesting vote movement at day end but to apply proper wagonomics we need the alignment of all or most of the train targets. So we should flip those anyways.

vote: HPSauce
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
Would keep;
Sawneeks
ATP
Anex
Ambulance?
jman
Fate?
Yuta

Would vote;
Zipped
Ephi
Bojack
Launch
malus
Royal
LP

Meh (Fine with voting out, don't feel strongly about);
Leo
HP
wee
Neki
Blarg
Repost of post-death thoughts.
After all, sawneeks MAY have been the deliberate mafia target last night and not a switched target, as suggested by anex[?]
 

Lone_Prodigy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,425
giphy.gif


Lies, I'm trying to explain my reads on the few players I have them on, while rereading the thread for expanded reads all while having conversation with FateShirou.

youre-a-scum-dislike.gif

at least that is how you are feeling to me with this lazy Meta read on me. I mean I know its common scum meta to bus town zipped day 2, but at least pay attention to what I'm doing in thread.

Your vote is on Blarg, whom we all know walks to the beat of his own drum. And before that you scum read HP for flavour reasons. But sure I'll let you do your town things.
 

Royal_Flush

Member
Oct 25, 2017
879
3N.



To Bo - I didn't slip away, I was still very much there.
I wanted to see what would happen, wouldn't be very easy to do that if I wasn't watching, and I moved again when I saw what was.
To Leo - I wasn't avoiding HP, had expressed my willingness to vote there, and did vote there. I just let my curiosity get the better of me along the way.

Faced with a day end where I had no particularly strong feelings towards any of the people in the firing line people I felt the urge to experiment a little.

Malus was a boring vote. Acceptable, but boring. Sneeks wanted to vote Malus, and I didn't actually trust her, her snipe at me voting there making her want to move, or the fact that absolutely nobody moved when Yuta went to her.
LP was up there as an option at the time, largely being voted on what felt like tone.
Sneeks herself was apparently not interesting enough as a vote, which I'll admit did surprise me. I didn't actually expect my momentary Sneeks vote to do anything though, Yuta had tried that already, I voted there to express my interest, basically.
HP's little blowup with Bo earlier in the day had stuck with me. Pair that with a lot of posts of which looked like bickering and anger and provocation and I was willing to vote there.

And then there was the fact HP's own vote was still sitting out there on Fate and I couldn't help wondering where it would land if he had options for self preservation rather than a clear countervote.

Launch had two votes when I moved to him. Two. I don't think I could have been expected to know that would catch fire, it's not like there'd been an excessive amount of interest in Launch through the day.
But I was curious. ATP made a point of asking me about him. LP made a snide comment about him being safe because he posts a lot but was already voting there so I didn't need to factor in the possibility of him moving.

And I just wanted to do it.
I wanted to see what would happen.

... then I saw what was happening and I balked but the train had already left the station.
My problem, of course, is that I'm not actually sure how to look at any of it and make something useful of it, but I'm certainly going to give it a go.

In the meanwhile though, Vote: Blargonaut
I mean, I appreciate having multiple trains for better wagonomics as much as the next guy, but you should be somewhat upfront about it. This kinda reads like you feel responsible for the Launch launch (wordplay shamelessly stolen) and try to not have it blow up in your face.

Also, if you didn't have feelings about the back then main trains, did you have strong feelings about Launch? because why would you want to stop the Launch train of you also don't feel all the other trains are significantly better?