That's the thing he doesn't have the assets to sell now, the state has control of the bulk of it
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I didn't want to make a new thread on this but if I am reading this correctly, won't Trump be able to make BILLIONS of dollars in some kind of pump and dumb scheme off of this...
I wouldn't worry about it too much. It was already covered earlier that he'll have a hard time trying to get anything out of it.
Are you acquainted with any Trump supporter? They're already holding dozens of bags because they are all the kinds of people super into crypto and meme stocks thinking they're gonna strike gold. It'd be the easiest thing in the world to convince them it's gonna pull a GameStop. Not nearly enough to make Trump billions like some are suggesting but I can see it being pretty lucrative for him.
The idiots are definitely there (just look at the GoFundMe for the judgement, it's not even by Trump and it's at 200k or something now), but not anywhere remotely close to 4 billions' worth. That well has been getting tapped for way too long now.
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Every dollar they send to this grifter or goes to the king grifter trump is a dollar not going to the Republican Party so that's a bright spot.
(Not thinking about how some are scraping by and sending him their last buck)
It's covering less than the interest he needs to pay. Lol. Lmao, even.
I find it hilarious how tens of millions of Americans enrolled into a braindead cult. Deconstructing the education system is one of the biggest Republican victories.
Summary of Judgment
OP
OP
As promised, here's a summary of the judgment.
It's a slow-burner of a 92-page document, leading us through the background, the law, the witnesses, the various assets, the charges - all cross-referenced to trial transcripts and exhibits, and extensively footnoted with some characteristic Engoron snark. Then all of a sudden it lights on fire with Angry Engoron from page 85 and concludes with the actual order on pp 91-92.
Penalties
1) Disgorgement of ill-gotten gains
I had thought this might be difficult to assess, but it turns out to be easy because so often Trump had competing quotes for the same loan from the same bank: one secured on the assets at LIBOR + 8%, and one secured on Trump's declaration of his personal wealth at LIBOR + 4%. Engoron is a thorough man and checked all the calculations, finding a net error of only about $6 out of $168m or so. It'll be tough to argue that on appeal.
Most of the money is due jointly and severally from various individual and corporate defendants, so can be enforced against either. And since Trump won't be in control of the corporate defendants he is unlikely to be able to avoid paying one way or the other. He won't be able to file for corporate bankruptcy either - it will be out of his hands.
The breakdown is (with the date from which interest at 9% annual applies):
Interest fraud - $168m (+interest from 4 Mar 2019) Trump + Trust + all corporate defendants - for loans for Doral, Old Post Office, Chicago, 40 Wall Street
Ferry Point profits - $60m (+interest from 16 Jan 2023) Trump + Trust + Trump Org
Old Post Office profits - $127m (+interest from 11 May 2022) Trump + Trust + Trump Org + Trump Old Post Office LLC
Old Post Office profits - $4m (+interest from 11 May 2022) Don Jr
Old Post Office profits - $4m (+interest from 11 May 2022) Eric
Severance payment - $1m (+interest from 9 Jan 2023) Alan Weisselberg
That's a total of $364m + interest, all but $9m due from Trump and his various organisations. It is racking up interest at about $100k a day, so the current total is more like $464m, which almost certainly exceeds the liquid assets.
2) Liability for offenses (so, potentially criminal charges)
175.05 Falsifying Business Records - Trump, Don Jr, Eric, Weisselberg, McConney, Trust, all corporate defendants
175.05 Conspiracy to Falsifying Business Records - Trump, Don Jr, Eric, Weisselberg, McConney, Trust, all corporate defendants
175.45 Issuing False Financial Statements - Trump, Don Jr, Eric, Weisselberg, McConney, Trust, all corporate defendants
175.45 Conspiracy to Issuing False Financial Statements - Trump, Don Jr, Eric, Weisselberg, McConney, Trust, all corporate defendants
176.05 Insurance Fraud - Weisselberg, McConney
176.05 Conspiracy to Insurance Fraud - Trump, Don Jr, Eric, Weisselberg, McConney, Trust, all corporate defendants
I don't know how this ties in with the statute of limitations, and so whether criminal charges are even possible now. But these findings underlie the rest of the equitable remedies. But it does mean that it is now safe to refer to Trump as a fraudster as will as a rapist.
3) Equitable Remedies - individual
Permanent ban from financial control of any NY organisation - Weisselberg, McConney
3-year ban on serving as officer or director of any NY entity - Trump, Weisselberg, McConney
2-year ban on serving as officer or director of any NY entity - Don Jr, Eric
3-year ban on applying for loans from any entity registered in New York - Trump, Trust, all corporate defendants
There's a list here of the organisations they can't apply for loans from. It's a big list. Foreign banks are listed under 'Foreign Branch' rather than 'Bank' which has misled a few people on twitter to think this is less effective than it is.
The state had also sought a time-limited ban on real-estate transactions. That this has not been imposed I think reflects the practical reality that it is unlikely the organisation will be able to meet its liabilities without selling some stuff off.
4) Equitable Remedies - corporate compliance
Cancellation of business certificates withdrawn (without prejudice to cancelling them on recommendation of Independent Monitor or based on further evidence)
Barbara Jones to continue as Independent Monitor for at least 3 years, and to recommend by 17 Mar the new powers she will need
Independent Director of Compliance to be appointed (Jones to give shortlist by 17 Mar) to ensure accounting and reporting compliance
Right now it is not very clear how this will all work out. Indeed it is not even clear, given the banned directors, who will be running the organisation. But over the first year or so I expect at least to see:
- implementation of proper financial controls
- a lot of appraisals to find out what everything is really worth
- reinstatement of the required Statements of Financial Condition, which will likely trigger some loan defaults and also impact the Forbes Rich List(!)
- settlement of back taxes due to IRS and NY State, so even more $m
We'll know more about this in a month's time.
It's a slow-burner of a 92-page document, leading us through the background, the law, the witnesses, the various assets, the charges - all cross-referenced to trial transcripts and exhibits, and extensively footnoted with some characteristic Engoron snark. Then all of a sudden it lights on fire with Angry Engoron from page 85 and concludes with the actual order on pp 91-92.
Penalties
1) Disgorgement of ill-gotten gains
I had thought this might be difficult to assess, but it turns out to be easy because so often Trump had competing quotes for the same loan from the same bank: one secured on the assets at LIBOR + 8%, and one secured on Trump's declaration of his personal wealth at LIBOR + 4%. Engoron is a thorough man and checked all the calculations, finding a net error of only about $6 out of $168m or so. It'll be tough to argue that on appeal.
Most of the money is due jointly and severally from various individual and corporate defendants, so can be enforced against either. And since Trump won't be in control of the corporate defendants he is unlikely to be able to avoid paying one way or the other. He won't be able to file for corporate bankruptcy either - it will be out of his hands.
The breakdown is (with the date from which interest at 9% annual applies):
Interest fraud - $168m (+interest from 4 Mar 2019) Trump + Trust + all corporate defendants - for loans for Doral, Old Post Office, Chicago, 40 Wall Street
Ferry Point profits - $60m (+interest from 16 Jan 2023) Trump + Trust + Trump Org
Old Post Office profits - $127m (+interest from 11 May 2022) Trump + Trust + Trump Org + Trump Old Post Office LLC
Old Post Office profits - $4m (+interest from 11 May 2022) Don Jr
Old Post Office profits - $4m (+interest from 11 May 2022) Eric
Severance payment - $1m (+interest from 9 Jan 2023) Alan Weisselberg
That's a total of $364m + interest, all but $9m due from Trump and his various organisations. It is racking up interest at about $100k a day, so the current total is more like $464m, which almost certainly exceeds the liquid assets.
2) Liability for offenses (so, potentially criminal charges)
175.05 Falsifying Business Records - Trump, Don Jr, Eric, Weisselberg, McConney, Trust, all corporate defendants
175.05 Conspiracy to Falsifying Business Records - Trump, Don Jr, Eric, Weisselberg, McConney, Trust, all corporate defendants
175.45 Issuing False Financial Statements - Trump, Don Jr, Eric, Weisselberg, McConney, Trust, all corporate defendants
175.45 Conspiracy to Issuing False Financial Statements - Trump, Don Jr, Eric, Weisselberg, McConney, Trust, all corporate defendants
176.05 Insurance Fraud - Weisselberg, McConney
176.05 Conspiracy to Insurance Fraud - Trump, Don Jr, Eric, Weisselberg, McConney, Trust, all corporate defendants
I don't know how this ties in with the statute of limitations, and so whether criminal charges are even possible now. But these findings underlie the rest of the equitable remedies. But it does mean that it is now safe to refer to Trump as a fraudster as will as a rapist.
3) Equitable Remedies - individual
Permanent ban from financial control of any NY organisation - Weisselberg, McConney
3-year ban on serving as officer or director of any NY entity - Trump, Weisselberg, McConney
2-year ban on serving as officer or director of any NY entity - Don Jr, Eric
3-year ban on applying for loans from any entity registered in New York - Trump, Trust, all corporate defendants
There's a list here of the organisations they can't apply for loans from. It's a big list. Foreign banks are listed under 'Foreign Branch' rather than 'Bank' which has misled a few people on twitter to think this is less effective than it is.
The state had also sought a time-limited ban on real-estate transactions. That this has not been imposed I think reflects the practical reality that it is unlikely the organisation will be able to meet its liabilities without selling some stuff off.
4) Equitable Remedies - corporate compliance
Cancellation of business certificates withdrawn (without prejudice to cancelling them on recommendation of Independent Monitor or based on further evidence)
Barbara Jones to continue as Independent Monitor for at least 3 years, and to recommend by 17 Mar the new powers she will need
Independent Director of Compliance to be appointed (Jones to give shortlist by 17 Mar) to ensure accounting and reporting compliance
Right now it is not very clear how this will all work out. Indeed it is not even clear, given the banned directors, who will be running the organisation. But over the first year or so I expect at least to see:
- implementation of proper financial controls
- a lot of appraisals to find out what everything is really worth
- reinstatement of the required Statements of Financial Condition, which will likely trigger some loan defaults and also impact the Forbes Rich List(!)
- settlement of back taxes due to IRS and NY State, so even more $m
We'll know more about this in a month's time.
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That go fund me hasn't been shut down yet? It violates their TOS, hasn't it been reported?
Scrolled through that bank list a bit, yeah, Trump is likely to be insolvent personally soon. Anybody he owes is going to call in his bills next week to make sure they get paid and I mean everyone. Also every foreign bank that's bailed him out in the past is on that list, and it even includes most of the Middle Eastern and China banks so he can't expect a foreign espionage bailout either. He just lost his major revenue sources too.
The GoFundMe appears to be another grift by someone that isn't Trump and is carefully worded to be money raised for "standing with" Trump, aka the ones holding the GoFundMe are almost certainly just going to pocket the whole thing.
If anyone wants it shut down the most, it's probably Trump lmao
Thanks! Jumped to page 85 and started reading.
As you mention, just a lot of efficient takedowns from Engoron using prior case outcomes and things like dumbass Eric discussing on stand how the current structure of governance lacks a CFO or controller to guide leadership away from fraud and maintain GAAP compliance, either willingly or via completely incompetency.
But then he gets into the denial of wrongdoing and lack of remorse. Engoron basically is siding with the law and the desire to maintain whatever shred of "integrity" exists in the financial marketplace by punishing harshly those that show refusal to even recognize their flagrant abuse. Almost agreeing with Trump that it is a "victimless" crime next to something like Madoff or Enron but ignoring all laws and rules for pure greed through corporate malfeasance requires punishment all the same.
Then the examples of how crooked the Trump University, charity, and other grifting settlements turned out to further establish both continued motive and lack of learning, alongside their public comments, Engoron felt it necessary to finally give this enterprise a real black mark that resonates. Delivered gracefully and with merit really that anyone with half a brain can read and recognize use its long needed.
OP
OP
Selected Engoronisms from the Judgment
p4 footnote 1 said:
p13 footnote 5 said:
p24 footnote 12 said:
p36 said:
p37 said:
p51 said:
p56 said:
p62 footnote 40 said:
p86 footnote 56 said:
p87 said:
Feels like people don't get how devastating these rulings and the loan bars are for Trump. He just lost his most reliable sources of incomes, effectively can't get loans, and has ensured all his current loans are coming due early(actually a ton we're up this year already and now can't be renegotiated). He owes several times over what the fines were and now he can't escape them. He's going to have no money to campaign or travel(and likely drain the GOP's downballot as well)
L
Didn't he have something like $400m coming due now, and it was cited often during his 2020 campaign as a liability and national security issue?
Ahh here: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/06/donald-trump-loans-deutsche-bank/
Didn't he have something like $400m coming due now, and it was cited often during his 2020 campaign as a liability and national security issue?
Ahh here: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/06/donald-trump-loans-deutsche-bank/
Speaking of lack of remorse, Trump yesterday at another cult rally:
"a lawless and unconstitutional atrocity that sets fire to our laws like no one has ever seen in this country before."
"a lawless and unconstitutional atrocity that sets fire to our laws like no one has ever seen in this country before."
Fun fact, they're confirmed on the ban list too. No restructuring or new loans allowed. Nothing that even looks like it. I'm sure they'll be calling shortly
"Like no one has ever seen before" is the most annoying Trump phrase. His rotting brain can't seem to stop using it, and it is never true. It's almost as bad as his incessant accordian hands.
Trump did bring us quite alot of firsts, almost all of them bad, but none of those are what he's talking about when he uses his stupid hyperbolic phrase.
Anyway, sorry for the rant. I hope to see a few, much more welcome firsts, like the first bankrupt and imprisoned former president.
Trump did bring us quite alot of firsts, almost all of them bad, but none of those are what he's talking about when he uses his stupid hyperbolic phrase.
Anyway, sorry for the rant. I hope to see a few, much more welcome firsts, like the first bankrupt and imprisoned former president.
Trump needing to be president to avoid some of these charges is hurting him in other ones. Seems like he could have settled/pleaded guilty on many of these and gotten a much smaller penalty, but his need to not admit anything is destroying him.
Trump is a big hit on the Internet because he talks like the Internet: no nuance and blatant hucksterism. Everything is the best or the worst. Things are amazing or garbage. It's a wild time to be alive.
What a shame. Ofc that stance has served him well most of his life, enabled by the luxury of being born into a such a connected and wealthy family to begin with. It works until it doesn't. Now he's like a teenager who keeps trying to push the boundaries, and the push back is like:
Can one of Trump's billionaire friends overpay, say, $1billion for a property worth $300 million essentially paying for everything through a "favor".
That would be a new instance of fraud. One that would be caught almost immediately with the state over site.
My dad is very disillusioned with Trump—he thinks Trump is going to wiggle out of it and that either "Elon, or Putin, or the Saudi Prince" will just gift Trump the money. Or that Trump will push it off forever (I already told him Trump has 30 days before the state starts seizing assets).
I'm like…… I don't think so this time. I'm sure the courts are watching for that kind of stuff too. Is there a legal route to take to ensure someone can't gift Trump the money?
I'm like…… I don't think so this time. I'm sure the courts are watching for that kind of stuff too. Is there a legal route to take to ensure someone can't gift Trump the money?
No billionaire is going to bankrupt themselves for Trump. (Gifts become taxable over a certain amount)
Yeah, I mean, I don't think it will happen, but my dad is convinced haha. Ah well, I guess just let it play out. I already shot down "he'll just get a bond", and "well he'll probably get some loans".
He's way into the pessimistic "Trump gets out of everything" mode right now. Which, fair… but I think this time, we may be able to celebrate.
That would be a lot of taxes on a $463M gift!
Lol Who would do that
Edit: and let's not forget taxes and commission on deals like that. You probably need to pay like 600m over
Yeah, this came up towards the end of the Trump University episodes of Behind the Bastards. (Which are great episodes if you haven't heard them, super funny and informative.) It was supposed to be one of those things where you supply a urine sample and they analyze it to create a custom multivitamen for your specific needs.
That's the annual gift tax exclusion, but there's also a lifetime exemption, so in practice you can gift someone up to around $13 million before having to pay taxes on it.
Doesn't really matter though, billionaires tend to have a F U got mine attitude and ain't giving anything to him unless they think they can get a decent return on the money.
I dunno. Billionaires leave their fortunes to their pets when they die. Some may love Trump more than their pets.
I said this earlier, Trump would never take Elon's money. Trump hates the guy because he's not a true believer, and in Trump's transactional-only mind if you're not 100% in all the time from birth, you're disloyal.
Thee won't be any one shithead billionaire that'll bail Trump out. It'll be more like MBS and a bunch of Saudi state backed companies funneling cash through Kushner in some way.
Like Kushner forming a real estate "partnership" with the Sovereign Wealth Fund or some shady shit.
Like Kushner forming a real estate "partnership" with the Sovereign Wealth Fund or some shady shit.
Even if your goal is to destroy western civilization, there has to be many ways to better spend $500 million than pay this dumbass' fines.
Heck most of the fronts they could do it covertly or cheaper through have been blocked by the bank ban
From 2022, but an interesting look into Trump's finances: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chasew...oes-donald-trump-really-have/?sh=5cc352a973ed