We need to have a discussion about how members treat other members on this site and among other issues.

[Prax]

I am a bit ambilvalent about whether users should feel safe all the time or not. A bit o' fear or dunking is probably good (and a good time?) lol. But there is a tendency for pile-ons and ad nauseams to happen because there is an inherent bandwagoning mentality when it comes to group dynamics that leads to boring, unproductive, or even toxic atmospheres. Honestly, a lot of people here do have emotional hangups and project all over the place while trying to come off invulnerable or aggressively on the defensive or self-important to the point of obnoxiousness, so this kind of thing is inevitable.

While it's not up to me to judge when the lines are crossed officially, I still do judge and side-eye plenty. I am not particularly sensitive, so when I am especially annoyed, I do often wish bans could happen more heavily and mercilessly.

As for shaming bigots and making nazi sympathizers fearing for their mortal souls.. Good?

 

[Cipherr]

On the flip side, refer to Kyuuji's receipts on Reverse Giraffe to understand how not good it is to just blindly assume that someone who gripes about the outrage machine is being entirely truthful.

Click to shrink...

The issue is, even going back to before Resetera was founded.... Name a time when mods or the community was inept at identifying and shutting down people arguing in bad faith...

This community has always been good at it. Mods were always good at shutting it down. Always. That's what made this community so hated by the far right and bad actors. That's why entire forums popped up for banned GAF and ERA members. It was because those infiltration tactics NEVER worked here, unlike other forums. We are talking almost 10 years (for me I think its been like 7 or 8)

So why since Eras founding has it gotten so unbelievably over the top in the manner that Switch Back 9 describes in his post? Its slowly escalated and become so incredibly hostile, and there was no reason for it to ramp up like this. Anytime someone questions this slide its always defended with "We must be vigilant to stop bad actors" but the community was successful at that for yeaaaaars before things escalated to where they are now; so that just feels like an excuse. Now prominent and really awesome long term members of the community are starting to leave. I mean, when do we decide enough is enough man.

 

[Kyuuji]

The issue is, even going back to before Resetera was founded.... Name a time when mods or the community was inept at identifying and shutting down people arguing in bad faith...

This community has always been good at it. Mods were always good at shutting it down. Always. That's what made this community so hated by the far right and bad actors. That's why entire forums popped up for banned GAF and ERA members. It was because those infiltration tactics NEVER worked here, unlike other forums. We are talking almost 10 years (for me I think its been like 7 or 8)

So why since Eras founding has it gotten so unbelievably over the top in the manner that Switch Back 9 describes in his post? Its slowly escalated and become so incredibly hostile, and there was no reason for it to ramp up like this. Anytime someone questions this slide its always defended with "We must be vigilant to stop bad actors" but the community was successful at that for yeaaaaars before things escalated to where they are now; so that just feels like an excuse. Now prominent and really awesome long term members of the community are starting to leave. I mean, when do we decide enough is enough man.

Click to shrink...

The past few months.

 

[Cipherr]

The past few months.

Click to shrink...

That it? Over ten years?

Doesn't even remotely excuse what Switch and OP described happening in the community over the last few years. Heck it makes it look even worse. Mods are human, I can forgive a lapse. Its the sustained dive that bothers me.

 

[Kyuuji]

That it? Over ten years?

Doesn't even remotely excuse what Switch and OP described happening in the community over the last few years. Heck it makes it look even worse. Mods are human, I can forgive a lapse. Its the sustained dive that bothers me.

Click to shrink...

It's people like yourself lamenting cancel culture while insulting the forum and simultaneously lamenting its hostility that bothers me 🤷‍♀️

 

[Cipherr]

It's people like yourself lamenting cancel culture while insulting the forum and simultaneously lamenting its hostility that bothers me.

Click to shrink...

Alright? ... Anyways.

Fully agree. I'm not religious, but for a long time I've thought this forum needs better rules about how to handle religious discussion. We have to accept that religion can be a nuanced and deep topic on its own, and to be respectful of boundaries. I've seen some downright hateful stuff targetted towards religious folks almost bordering on China "un-brainwashing religion" territory.

Click to shrink...

I think this has a lot to do with the forum being fairly US based, and in the US mostly hardcore religion is a thing on the left. I can remember discussions involving religion being a lot better before the leadership in the US swung right and everything from womens rights and homophobia started radiating even brighter than usual from the jackass Republicans. I'm hoping things on that front will cool down a bit after 2020.

 

[Deleted member 2625]

It's people like yourself lamenting cancel culture while insulting the forum and simultaneously lamenting its hostility that bothers me 🤷‍♀️

Click to shrink...

... and yet this response itself is pretty hostile, needlessly so I'd say. How do you square that?

No one said "cancel culture". That's you. There were no insults.

 

[Kyuuji]

... and yet this response itself is pretty hostile, needlessly so I'd say. How do you square that?

Click to shrink...

If someone is downplaying the concerns of the community as cancel culture and ignoring recent events, lamenting the hostility while insulting people at the same time - I'm not really bothered about being blunt in my view toward them. I didn't insult them, I said their attitude in that is what bothers me.

 

[Deleted member 42055]

If someone is downplaying the concerns of the community as cancel culture and ignoring recent events, lamenting the hostility while insulting people at the same time - I'm not really bothered about being blunt in my view toward them. I didn't insult them, I said their attitude in that is what bothers me.

Click to shrink...

Fam if those people hate the state of things so much that they stop posting or leave then nothing of value is lost. People forgetting that this whole moderation thing started after the Trans community felt so unsafe, marginalized, and ignored by moderation that they had to make a post about it.

Now of course people are using that as a reason to air grievances that aren't even in the same stratosphere as those aired by TransEra. I don't want to assume here but I'd love to know the orientations and race demographics of the people that have been doing this

 

[Kyuuji]

Fam if those people hate the state of things so much that they stop posting or leave then nothing of value is lost. People forgetting that this whole moderation thing started after the Trans community felt so unsafe, marginalized, and ignored by moderation that they had to make a post about it.

Now of course people are using that as a reason to air grievances that aren't even in the same stratosphere as those aired by TransEra. I don't want to assume here but I'd love to know the orientations and race demographics of the people that have been doing this

Click to shrink...

I didn't order a fact book. The amount of times someone pipes up on trans/non-binary issues as being "too sensitive" and the like you almost always know, but you still check, and yep – "Male" under the avatar. You know, the same types to pearl clutch over a swear word while ignoring everything that led to it. Must have their safe space to hand-wave concerns and give "tough love" while telling others they want a safe space just for wanting to discuss things about themselves without ignorant, mocking or dismissive takes from others.

 

[Deleted member 2625]

If someone is downplaying the concerns of the community as cancel culture and ignoring recent events, lamenting the hostility while insulting people at the same time - I'm not really bothered about being blunt in my view toward them. I didn't insult them, I said their attitude in that is what bothers me.

Click to shrink...

Ok well I'll be blunt too then – this is a shitty attitude. Your attitude bother me too. Literally insulting people while bemoaning being insulted. Do you not see this?

Not everyone is Extremely Online or super up-to-date on fast-sprawling forum metadrama that unfolds across multiple time zones. I read those threads, all of it. I have complicated thoughts on the matter. But none of that has to do with the simple fact that you're on a forum, and people have lives.

I also am tired of these super aggressive retorts that are imperiously declared to not be In Good Faith or "JAQing off" (yay! more insider buzz words to prove your cred!). You seem to think that we can achieve some perfect hermetically sealed moderation that even the mighty YouTube / Google, with all their money, have not figured out yet. And it reads in a way that strongly implies that you get to declare who is right and wrong. No matter what.

The argument is, "don't you know how much I've argued?! Don't you know how tired I am of explaining my position??" To which I'd say, no. I don't know what threads you click, what else you read online, how laboriously you've constructed your clap back to your asshole bigot third cousin on FB. We. Don't. Know. It's nice if someone has followed along, but faulting someone for dropping into a 100 page thread without having full foreknowledge is insane. I'm not talking about starkly obvious hate speech or ridiculous drive-boy's – moderation has never really been a problem for these IMO. I'm talking about the crazy outsized responses to what might be innocuous, if ignorant (not a sin) requests for clarification that are the norm more than the exception, in topics about social power or personal issues. It just spikes the conversation right into the fucking gutter instantly when this happens. God forbid you misuse transgender as transgendered – decapitation. Or ask what "folx" means in earnest. God forbid you open up about a personal issue you are struggling with in a thread – you have to be brave indeed. Unless it can be answered with a suicide hotline number, this place is simply not welcoming for vulnerabilities and that's on us. All of us. Not just the mods.

I keep seeing these demands for "accountability and transparency" over and over and while I have read some interesting experiments that could be tried (the SomerhingAwful example), I don't believe there exists a mechanism or technical implementation to solve people. This is a culture problem. We need to be the forum we want to see, to paraphrase racist sexist skinhead Ghandhi.

I do appreciate the time you spend on these issues Kyuuji but I feel like we all have a lot of work to do on tone control (me also), not just making increasingly abstract and impossible demands of the mods to "solve" human speech. It feels straight up imperious at times.

 

[Kyuuji]

Ok well I'll be blunt too then – this is a shitty attitude. Your attitude bother me too. Literally insulting people while bemoaning being insulted. Do you not see this?

Click to shrink...

I didn't insult him, I said his attitude of doing the thing you describe bothers me.
It's no different to what you're saying to me in this line.

Not everyone is Extremely Online or super up-to-date on fast-sprawling forum metadrama that unfolds across multiple time zones. I read those threads, all of it. I have complicated thoughts on the matter. But none of that has to do with the simple fact that you're on a forum, and people have lives.

Click to shrink...

Sure. Which is why I pointed out it had happened in the past few months, which he disregarded.

I also am tired of these super aggressive retorts that are imperiously declared to not be In Good Faith or "JAQing off" (yay! more insider buzz words to prove your cred!). You seem to think that we can achieve some perfect hermetically sealed moderation that even the mighty YouTube / Google, with all their money, have not figured out yet. And it reads in a way that strongly implies that you get to declare who is right and wrong. No matter what.

Click to shrink...

I don't. Unlike a number of people I'm not appealing to an extreme. Moderation can improve without hitting one and I've already posted in this thread about communities having to put up with a degree of it as inherent and a natural necessity.

The argument is, "don't you know how much I've argued?! Don't you know how tired I am of explaining my position??" To which I'd say, no. I don't know what threads you click, what else you read online, how laboriously you've constructed your clap back to your asshole bigot third cousin on FB. We. Don't. Know. It's nice if someone has followed along, but faulting someone for dropping into a 100 page thread without having full foreknowledge is insane.

Click to shrink...

That's not what people are faulting them for. I said this in my earlier post. The expectation is that you'd either read a few pages of the thread and the OP or have a cursory Google search to see if it's immediately apparent, to then use as a basis for your entry.

I'm not talking about starkly obvious hate speech or ridiculous drive-boy's – moderation has never really been a problem for these IMO. I'm talking about the crazy outsized responses to what might be innocuous, if ignorant (not a sin) requests for clarification that are the norm more than the exception, in topics about social power or personal issues.

Click to shrink...

The problem is though, as with your jumping in with "no cancel culture" earlier, these things come about through a pattern of sentiment. That's what is being spoken to in the majority of cases to which people taking it as a comment on a single post obviously miss. I went over this in a bit of detail in an earlier post of the thread - which I appreciate you have a life ( 😉 ) so the link is there if you're interested.

It just spikes the conversation right into the fucking gutter instantly when this happens. God forbid you misuse transgender as transgendered – decapitation. Or ask what "folx" means in earnest. God forbid you open up about a personal issue you are struggling with in a thread – you have to be brave indeed. Unless it can be answered with a suicide hotline number, this place is simply not welcoming for vulnerabilities and that's on us. All of us. Not just the mods.

Click to shrink...

Please miss me with this. I've been in these threads and I've seen people use transgendered and be politely corrected, and the same for folx.

I keep seeing these demands for "accountability and transparency" over and over and while I have read some interesting experiments that could be tried (the SomerhingAwful example), I don't believe there exists a mechanism or technical implementation to solve people. This is a culture problem. We need to be the forum we want to see, to paraphrase racist sexist skinhead Ghandhi.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure what you mean by "be the forum we want to see" in relation to the recent issues. Trans people went months without kicking it up a notch and staff only intervened when it hit boiling point. You can remove the curt responses from the trans threads and you'll still have the ignorance and dismissals. You remove those, and you will find less of the other.

I do appreciate the time you spend on these issues Kyuuji but I feel like we all have a lot of work to do on tone control (me also), not just making increasingly abstract and impossible demands of the mods to "solve" human speech. It feels straight up imperious at times.

Click to shrink...

I agree that we have a lot of work to do around the controlling of tone, just not in the respect you do. I'd rather see people address the things that provoke the responses instead of pearl-clutching over the responses themselves.

 

[Jonathan Lanza]

Ok well I'll be blunt too then – this is a shitty attitude. Your attitude bother me too. Literally insulting people while bemoaning being insulted. Do you not see this?

Not everyone is Extremely Online or super up-to-date on fast-sprawling forum metadrama that unfolds across multiple time zones. I read those threads, all of it. I have complicated thoughts on the matter. But none of that has to do with the simple fact that you're on a forum, and people have lives.

I also am tired of these super aggressive retorts that are imperiously declared to not be In Good Faith or "JAQing off" (yay! more insider buzz words to prove your cred!). You seem to think that we can achieve some perfect hermetically sealed moderation that even the mighty YouTube / Google, with all their money, have not figured out yet. And it reads in a way that strongly implies that you get to declare who is right and wrong. No matter what.

The argument is, "don't you know how much I've argued?! Don't you know how tired I am of explaining my position??" To which I'd say, no. I don't know what threads you click, what else you read online, how laboriously you've constructed your clap back to your asshole bigot third cousin on FB. We. Don't. Know. It's nice if someone has followed along, but faulting someone for dropping into a 100 page thread without having full foreknowledge is insane. I'm not talking about starkly obvious hate speech or ridiculous drive-boy's – moderation has never really been a problem for these IMO. I'm talking about the crazy outsized responses to what might be innocuous, if ignorant (not a sin) requests for clarification that are the norm more than the exception, in topics about social power or personal issues. It just spikes the conversation right into the fucking gutter instantly when this happens. God forbid you misuse transgender as transgendered – decapitation. Or ask what "folx" means in earnest. God forbid you open up about a personal issue you are struggling with in a thread – you have to be brave indeed. Unless it can be answered with a suicide hotline number, this place is simply not welcoming for vulnerabilities and that's on us. All of us. Not just the mods.

I keep seeing these demands for "accountability and transparency" over and over and while I have read some interesting experiments that could be tried (the SomerhingAwful example), I don't believe there exists a mechanism or technical implementation to solve people. This is a culture problem. We need to be the forum we want to see, to paraphrase racist sexist skinhead Ghandhi.

I do appreciate the time you spend on these issues Kyuuji but I feel like we all have a lot of work to do on tone control (me also), not just making increasingly abstract and impossible demands of the mods to "solve" human speech. It feels straight up imperious at times.

Click to shrink...

To be fair I really don't think it's unreasonable to assume that if you have a question about something then that means several other people have asked that question and thus has been answered several times before. I too did not know what Folx meant before you just mentioned it but now I have an idea thanks to looking it up. Asking questions is very similar to asking for help with homework; when you do it you have to show that you've attempted to answer the question yourself.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

The issue is, even going back to before Resetera was founded.... Name a time when mods or the community was inept at identifying and shutting down people arguing in bad faith...

This community has always been good at it. Mods were always good at shutting it down. Always. That's what made this community so hated by the far right and bad actors. That's why entire forums popped up for banned GAF and ERA members. It was because those infiltration tactics NEVER worked here, unlike other forums. We are talking almost 10 years (for me I think its been like 7 or 8)

So why since Eras founding has it gotten so unbelievably over the top in the manner that Switch Back 9 describes in his post? Its slowly escalated and become so incredibly hostile, and there was no reason for it to ramp up like this. Anytime someone questions this slide its always defended with "We must be vigilant to stop bad actors" but the community was successful at that for yeaaaaars before things escalated to where they are now; so that just feels like an excuse. Now prominent and really awesome long term members of the community are starting to leave. I mean, when do we decide enough is enough man.

Click to shrink...

Why are you replying to me? My post was about an individual who sucks.

 

[julia crawford]

You seem to think that we can achieve some perfect hermetically sealed moderation that even the mighty YouTube / Google, with all their money, have not figured out yet.

Click to shrink...

Just to say, this is perfectly possible, Google's attempts at moderation are not comparable to moderation made on a much, much smaller scale.

 

[Akira86]

God forbid you open up about a personal issue you are struggling with in a thread – you have to be brave indeed. Unless it can be answered with a suicide hotline number, this place is simply not welcoming for vulnerabilities and that's on us. All of us. Not just the mods.

I keep seeing these demands for "accountability and transparency" over and over and while I have read some interesting experiments that could be tried (the SomerhingAwful example), I don't believe there exists a mechanism or technical implementation to solve people. This is a culture problem. We need to be the forum we want to see, to paraphrase racist sexist skinhead Ghandhi.

Click to shrink...

I don't think you intend to defend "racist, sexist, skinhead Gandhi" even though you directly touch on him and the trouble surrounding his existence with an air of inevitability and acceptance. The fact that he "did the work" and was able to change is s credit to him, but it cannot be a defense, explanation, or justification of his earlier actions.

I see people get attacked for coming into threads, not with questions and vulnerabilities, but with preconceived concepts contrary to the subject of discussion and leading questions that they need to be disarmed of. It's almost never 'hey guys I think I might be wrong about this, can you help me', but usually, 'this is what i've always believed, my experiences back me up, prove me wrong'. That's not vulnerability on display, and you can't possibly be surprised that people would be weary of dealing with that.

 

[Lentic]

I think this has a lot to do with the forum being fairly US based, and in the US mostly hardcore religion is a thing on the left. I can remember discussions involving religion being a lot better before the leadership in the US swung right and everything from womens rights and homophobia started radiating even brighter than usual from the jackass Republicans. I'm hoping things on that front will cool down a bit after 2020.

Click to shrink...

Yes, I think that has a lot to do with it. People feel like they're punching up, but there are other aspects that can be harmful. The rise of fascist anti-religious attitudes in the alt-right is worrying. There's also a xenophobic or Islamophobic undercurrent that needs to be taken into consideration.

A lot of people here are quick to label religious people as "brain washed" or bigoted, which in itself can be quite dangerous. All around we need to treat people with respect and dignity. That goes for both religious and non-religious people.

 

[Herne]

The problem is I have on a couple occasions attempt to report some users and it took the cat calling bump thread I mentioned above, for a user to get banned. I don't feel the report system is reliable and I feel bad saying this, but it's absolutely true.

Click to shrink...

I agree. Perhaps there's a points system in place or something for offenses, I dunno, but I have seen people directly attack and insult people and they don't appear to even get warnings, despite being reported. I'm not going to claim that I know how the moderation team works but I wouldn't be surprised if many of them decide to turn a deaf ear sometimes.

 

[Deleted member 42055]

Yes, I think that has a lot to do with it. People feel like they're punching up, but there are other aspects that can be harmful. The rise of fascist anti-religious attitudes in the alt-right is worrying. There's also a xenophobic or Islamophobic undercurrent that needs to be taken into consideration.

A lot of people here are quick to label religious people as "brain washed" or bigoted, which in itself can be quite dangerous. All around we need to treat people with respect and dignity. That goes for both religious and non-religious people.

Click to shrink...

Yup, whole forum would be better if people were able to respect and accept differences without needless escalation of conflict.

Ex/ It's ok to not agree wholeheartedly on something like religion, it's ok to not agree with violence yet be empathetic to those who find it just in certain situations ( Popeye's racism thread)

It should be Live and let live but there are so many different levels of emotional maturity between the posters here that such an ideal seems impossible at times.

It's ok to say " I disagree with your POV but I respect where you're coming from* " and remove yourself from a thread or convo instead of getting into a drawn out argumentative (or straight up hostile )back and forth

* of course this does not apply to prejudices of any kind

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

Sorry that happened to you OP, I've experienced some of this toxicity but not to the extent that you did.
Shit like this shouldn't happen.

rip brainchild

Click to shrink...

Brainchild left?
Mannnnnn wtf.

 

[FeliciaFelix]

I didn't insult them, I said their attitude of doing the thing you describe bothers me.
It's no different to what you're saying to me in this line.


Sure. Which is why I pointed out it had happened in the past few months, which they disregarded.


I don't. Unlike a number of people I'm not appealing to an extreme. Moderation can improve without hitting one and I've already posted in this thread about communities having to put up with a degree of it as inherent and a natural necessity.


That's not what people are faulting them for. I said this in my earlier post. The expectation is that you'd either read a few pages of the thread and the OP or have a cursory Google search to see if it's immediately apparent, to then use as a basis for your entry.


The problem is though, as with your jumping in with "no cancel culture" earlier, these things come about through a pattern of sentiment. That's what is being spoken to in the majority of cases to which people taking it as a comment on a single post obviously miss. I went over this in a bit of detail in an earlier post of the thread - which I appreciate you have a life ( 😉 ) so the link is there if you're interested.


Please miss me with this. I've been in these threads and I've seen people use transgendered and be politely corrected, and the same for folx.


I'm not sure what you mean by "be the forum we want to see" in relation to the recent issues. Trans people went months without kicking it up a notch and staff only intervened when it hit boiling point. You can remove the curt responses from the trans threads and you'll still have the ignorance and dismissals. You remove those, and you will find less of the other.


I agree that we have a lot of work to do around the controlling of tone, just not in the respect you do. I'd rather see people address the things that provoke the responses instead of pearl-clutching over the responses themselves.

Click to shrink...

I read this post in conjunction with the previous post linked.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever... but this is the kind of Extreme Online behavior that seems to pull a lot of false positives.

Like, take this paragraph:

I say all of this as someone who has spent hours detailing things that can be found with a Google search in threads. I am not averse to educating, but I also likely have some more context behind a hostile reaction than someone browsing the thread and assessing it purely on that post alone.

Click to shrink...

I get that one should be informed on threads. But "spending hours on Google on threads" in the name of finding context is kinda insane. It's not implying a quick search in Wikipedia, its implying hours searching in the forum. Like, I commend your work, good on you to suss out trolls. But surely you dont expect deep deep dives just in case the person is a troll? I agree one shouldn't be naive, but this seems Extreme Online in my ignorant opinion.

But anyway that is secondary to my realization that some people practically live in this forum 24/7. I wonder if the hostility/depression percieved is that a lot of people spend waaay to much time in here. I was the one who mentioned that "support group" vs "discussion group" divide and encourage the mods to add one of the suggestions, [support] and [discussion] tags. I feel it will greatly help people guide the thread so that's theres no hurt feelings or misunderstandings about when people expect 100% support and when people expect pushback.

 

[Kyuuji]

I read this post in conjunction with the previous post linked.
I mean no disrespect whatsoever... but this is the kind of Extreme Online behavior that seems to pull a lot of false positives.
Like, take this paragraph:
I get that one should be informed on threads. But "spending hours on Google on threads" in the name of finding context is kinda insane. It's not implying a quick search in Wikipedia, its implying hours searching in the forum. Like, I commend your work, good on you to suss out trolls. But surely you dont expect deep deep dives just in case the person is a troll? I agree one shouldn't be naive, but this seems Extreme Online in my ignorant opinion.

But anyway that is secondary to my realization that some people practically live in this forum 24/7. I wonder if the hostility/depression percieved is that a lot of people spend waaay to much time in here. I was the one who mentioned that "support group" vs "discussion group" divide and encourage the mods to add one of the suggestions, [support] and [discussion] tags. I feel it will greatly help people guide the thread so that's theres no hurt feelings or misunderstandings about when people expect 100% support and when people expect pushback.

Click to shrink...

I never said this though. You might want to re-read that line, or I can rephrase as: "I have spent hours over the course of various threads detailing things that could be found with a simple Google search". It's saying that I've spent time educating people on topics that they could have found with a quick search for themselves. If someone comes in with any degree of tact to ask a question on sensitive issues, it's usually answered.

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

Damn, this thread is going...precisely as expected.

Click to shrink...

it is, indeed. The more I read through the pages...gah.
I don't really want to participate in that sub-discussion.

 

[mORTEN]

One of the things that absolutely discourages me from posting in any kind of political discussion is the "fuck both sides" thing.
Then what is the discussion? Us just mostly agreeing about "the other side" being bad and throwing mud around?
It's sometimes the kind of echo chamber that honestly shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone and in my opinion can be a bit dangerous.
The 'punch nazis' thread scared the shit out of me, cause that really made me realize that the extremes aren't just on the crazy far right side of things.
I dare not disagree with anyone in here, because of how black/white some people behave and I've seen words get twisted beyond their meaning.

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

I keep seeing these demands for "accountability and transparency" over and over and while I have read some interesting experiments that could be tried (the SomerhingAwful example), I don't believe there exists a mechanism or technical implementation to solve people. This is a culture problem.

Click to shrink...

There are other forums which don't have these issues and they are much more strict. Half the posters on ERA wouldn't have lasted five seconds on those sites, while here bad actors and burner accounts are normalised. It'd be smaller community but a safer, more inclusive one. Too much of GAF came over and never left.

We need to be the forum we want to see, to paraphrase racist sexist skinhead Ghandhi.

Click to shrink...

This is where leadership steps in, they define the culture from the top. They have tools to stamp out all the bad actors, and the mods who protect them, if they choose.

I wish I could trust the mods here, but I don't. I've been burnt too often while bad actors get away with everything. Complain about the wrong thing to a mod and you'll be the one getting banned or simply have a mild disagreement over politics with one. No discussion with PM's, no warnings, no accountability and who would I go to if I wanted to do something about it? This isn't a safe community and too many are invested in keeping that status quo. Leadership changes but nothing really changes. I'm not alone in this, and it feeds into various communities here. It's heartbreaking. One day I'm just going to disappear and not look back. This is ignoring the off-site bullshit, too, like the secrecy of who owns the site and why Kiwi Farms have a thread directly linked to banning here and nothing is done about it.

 

[Kyuuji]

I don't think you intend to defend "racist, sexist, skinhead Gandhi" even though you directly touch on him and the trouble surrounding his existence with an air of inevitability and acceptance. The fact that he "did the work" and was able to change is s credit to him, but it cannot be a defense, explanation, or justification of his earlier actions.

I see people get attacked for coming into threads, not with questions and vulnerabilities, but with preconceived concepts contrary to the subject of discussion and leading questions that they need to be disarmed of. It's almost never 'hey guys I think I might be wrong about this, can you help me', but usually, 'this is what i've always believed, my experiences back me up, prove me wrong'. That's not vulnerability on display, and you can't possibly be surprised that people would be weary of dealing with that.

Click to shrink...

☝️

 

[Wackamole]

It should be a forum. A place for dialogue and discussion.
Hate should always be banned. Everyone should feel safe. Everyone should be treated equal.
But nowadays people just can't WAIT to call someone else one of the words they just learned, essentially skipping all possible dialogue or even discussion.

And no, discussion does not mean we have to put up with bigotry, racism, lgbtqqiaap-phobia, etc.
Lot's of people, including me, have become a wiser thanks to the intelligent replies of others here.
And i'm far from perfect. I'm ignorant on many issues. And when people react in a certain way i can get angry as well.
Most seem willing to learn and grow, some don't seem so willing. And that includes people from all genders, races and sexual orientation.

Remember that this place is quite an isolated bubble. The outside world is different. Most people are here because they DO want a more openminded and progressive society. Nobody here knows exactly how it is to live the life of the other and we're all ignorant about something.
The world doesn't revolve around you (not OP but any person) and your issues (whatever they are). We all have our own issues and lives to deal with. But we have to be willing to understand each other and learn from each other (without allowing hateful stuff). That doesn't work by calling people names right away. Start by calmly stating why you don't like a certain reply. Oh you hate you have to repeat yourself? Well, that sucks, i agree. But there are so many people here. Never mind the amount of people in the outside world that have to learn even more than most people here. Some changes unfortunately take a shitload of time. It shouldn't be that way, i agree. But it's the reality. And by making people understand they'll be more likely to share your point of view to others.

I personally have had plenty conversations and discussions with family and friends and strangers about racism, bigotry, xenophobia (or any phobia towards people), politics, etc, and was able to make my point more clear because of the replies of some eloquent members of Resetera.
Your efforts to explain your personal stance on matters ARE making a difference in the world outside the forum as well.

What we do and how we act is contageous.

 

[Akira86]

keeping that status quo. Leadership changes but nothing really changes. I'm not alone in this, and it feeds into various communities here. It's heartbreaking. One day I'm just going to disappear and not look back. This is ignoring the off-site bullshit, too, like the secrecy of who owns the site and why Kiwi Farms have a thread directly linked to banning here and nothing is done about it.

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What can we expect the admins here to do about this? It's another site, some dude uses visible site data and scripts. I mean...

 

[Deleted member 3093]

One of the things that absolutely discourages me from posting in any kind of political discussion is the "fuck both sides" thing.
Then what is the discussion? Us just mostly agreeing about "the other side" being bad and throwing mud around?
It's sometimes the kind of echo chamber that honestly shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone and in my opinion can be a bit dangerous.
The 'punch nazis' thread scared the shit out of me, cause that really made me realize that the extremes aren't just on the crazy far right side of things.
I dare not disagree with anyone in here, because of how black/white some people behave and I've seen words get twisted beyond their meaning.

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I mean, there's a key difference in, say, punching LGBT people or black people or whatever, and punching white nationalists/Nazis/etc.

It should be a forum. A place for dialogue and discussion.
Hate should always be banned. Everyone should feel safe. Everyone should be treated equal.
But nowadays people just can't WAIT to call someone else one of the words they just learned, essentially skipping all possible dialogue or even discussion.

And no, discussion does not mean we have to put up with bigotry, racism, lgbtqqiaap-phobia, etc.
Lot's of people, including me, have become a wiser thanks to the intelligent replies of others here.
And i'm far from perfect. I'm ignorant on many issues. And when people react in a certain way i can get angry as well.
Most seem willing to learn and grow, some don't seem so willing. And that includes people from all genders, races and sexual orientation.

Remember that this place is quite an isolated bubble. The outside world is different. Most people are here because they DO want a more openminded and progressive society. Nobody here knows exactly how it is to live the life of the other and we're all ignorant about something.
The world doesn't revolve around you (not OP but any person) and your issues (whatever they are). We all have our own issues and lives to deal with. But we have to be willing to understand each other and learn from each other (without allowing hateful stuff). That doesn't work by calling people names right away. Start by calmly stating why you don't like a certain reply. Oh you hate you have to repeat yourself? Well, that sucks, i agree. But there are so many people here. Never mind the amount of people in the outside world that have to learn even more than most people here. Some changes unfortunately take a shitload of time. It shouldn't be that way, i agree. But it's the reality. And by making people understand they'll be more likely to share your point of view to others.

I personally have had plenty conversations and discussions with family and friends and strangers about racism, bigotry, xenophobia (or any phobia towards people), politics, etc, and was able to make my point more clear because of the replies of some eloquent members of Resetera.
Your efforts to explain your personal stance on matters ARE making a difference in the world outside the forum as well.

What we do and how we act is contageous.

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I guess my issue is, using Reverse Giraffe as an example, we also see people who are entirely too disingenuous about things. While I don't doubt that there are people who are legitimately unsure on a topic and behaving in good faith and have been bit too hard over it, people like Reverse Giraffe are the kinds of people who behave in bad faith and strengthen that narrative despite not fitting in it at all.

 

[Wackamole]

I guess my issue is, using Reverse Giraffe as an example, we also see people who are entirely too disingenuous about things. While I don't doubt that there are people who are legitimately unsure on a topic and behaving in good faith and have been bit too hard over it, people like Reverse Giraffe are the kinds of people who behave in bad faith and strengthen that narrative despite not fitting in it at all.

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That certainly happens as well. I'm not familiar with his posts though. Will have a looksy. Any particular topic?

 

[Deleted member 3093]

That certainly happens as well. I'm not familiar with his posts though. Will have a looksy.

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Kyuuji did a really exhaustive breakdown of his posts that he caught shade for earlier in the thread

 

[Wackamole]

Kyuuji did a really exhaustive breakdown of his posts that he caught shade for earlier in the thread

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Okay. In what post / topic? Although i have a pretty good idea what type of behaviour is referred to.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

Okay. In what post / topic? Although i have a pretty good idea what type of behaviour is referred to.

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https://www.resetera.com/threads/we...mong-other-issues.154572/page-3#post-26736575

 

[subpar spatula]

But anyway that is secondary to my realization that some people practically live in this forum 24/7.

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This is true. I do believe a lot of folks use Resetera as a substitute for more healthy alternatives. This isn't to downplay any grievances people have with serious slights people bring up, just that people don't really see a lot of outside help and resort to Era, and whenever that's brought up there's an excuse. Like, we understand the excuse, but at the same time what do you expect a random amount of people online to really do about it? It should be prefaced in personal threads what type of response you want. We can understand your position in not being able to seek help, but you seeked help here and this is what $0 gets you. I just don't see any reasonable way to solve this besides barring any kind of commentary you don't want to see in the thread.

 

[Deleted member 33533]

I agree that people on this forum really love a thread backfire and often will jump to making the worst possible accusation of an OP in order to get it started. I also agree with what you said about that recent gym thread. I really dislike that attitude of "wow I'm so enlightened by doing this thing and if you aren't there's a problem with you." That OP has no reason they couldn't just make a thread about how the gym really helps them and not push this narrative that others are fucking up by not doing the same.

I don't quite see what was wrong with the Grinder thread though. It seemed like most people there were being supportive of you and even giving you helpful advice and resources. I think the catfishing thing was that people are going to feel deceived even if the "reveal" is between them matching you and you sending them what you actually look like now. I think the idea was that it would just be a better idea overall to not have that old photo up and even you admitted it. I think in threads where an OP is venting about a personal issue they can't overcome, people tend to get frustrated when it seems the OP is resisting most of the advice given especially if it's something simple, like changing a profile picture. Not saying that excuses any rude behavior, just a possible explanation for where that comes from.

 

[Wackamole]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/we...mong-other-issues.154572/page-3#post-26736575

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Ah in this thread even. Haven't read the entire thread yet but certainly will. Thank you.

 

[mORTEN]

I mean, there's a key difference in, say, punching LGBT people or black people or whatever, and punching white nationalists/Nazis/etc.

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I mean I guess it's fine to punch certain people, if you say it is?
I think I understand your reasons for saying it, but it's the type of closed statement that makes it hard (for me) to have a discussion.
Cause now I might be labeled a nazi sympathizer if I try to argue, that I think punching is counter productive to what you might be trying to achieve. Unless it's just to make yourself feel better somehow?
Are people paranoid enough to think I might be undercover, trying to soften peoples hard opinions?
I might be labeled as a sympathizer because I think it's wrong to punch people, unless actively trying to protect yourself.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

I mean I guess it's fine to punch certain people, if you say it is?
I think I understand your reasons for saying it, but it's the type of closed statement that makes it hard (for me) to have a discussion.
Cause now I might be labeled a nazi sympathizer if I try to argue, that I think punching is counter productive to what you might be trying to achieve. Unless it's just to make yourself feel better somehow?
Are people paranoid enough to think I might be undercover, trying to soften peoples hard opinions?
I might be labeled as a sympathizer because I think it's wrong to punch people, unless actively trying to protect yourself.

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I mean

I can't really usher any sympathy for people whose endgoal is genocide

 

[mORTEN]

I mean

I can't really usher any sympathy for people whose endgoal is genocide

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Sure, me neither. But I never said anything about sympathy, as far as I know? Wasn't trying to insinuate it either.

 

[Deleted member 2625]

Sure. Which is why I pointed out it had happened in the past few months, which he disregarded.

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Ok – but just remember, again, not all of us have seen everything you have.

I don't. Unlike a number of people I'm not appealing to an extreme. Moderation can improve without hitting one and I've already posted in this thread about communities having to put up with a degree of it as inherent and a natural necessity.
...
That's not what people are faulting them for. I said this in my earlier post. The expectation is that you'd either read a few pages of the thread and the OP or have a cursory Google search to see if it's immediately apparent, to then use as a basis for your entry.

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Agree with both these points, thanks.

The problem is though, as with your jumping in with "no cancel culture" earlier, these things come about through a pattern of sentiment. That's what is being spoken to in the majority of cases to which people taking it as a comment on a single post obviously miss. I went over this in a bit of detail in an earlier post of the thread - which I appreciate you have a life ( 😉 ) so the link is there if you're interested.

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Appreciate the link! I will just point out again, I never used that phrase "cancel culture".

Please miss me with this. I've been in these threads and I've seen people use transgendered and be politely corrected, and the same for folx.

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And that's what should happen. But I've also seen people banned for saying "and i oop seems silly" and "my conservative mom freaked out when she saw a trans person in the bathroom, what should I say to her?". I know histories can play into these bans but we have no visibility on that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "be the forum we want to see" in relation to the recent issues. Trans people went months without kicking it up a notch and staff only intervened when it hit boiling point. You can remove the curt responses from the trans threads and you'll still have the ignorance and dismissals. You remove those, and you will find less of the other.

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If I had my way, I'd put a big purple banner on top of every post box that lifts Patton Oswalt's wife's quote: "It's chaos. Be kind."

I do read a lot of trans related threads because I feel they help further my understanding of the human condition, but I almost never participate, because I am not trans, and I feel that I should mostly just listen and absorb. I can't speak to the months of whatever pattern apart from the usual shitstorm trans people are saddled with.

My point over all was, we all are responsible for the tone and culture of the forum, not just the mods. They are not really here to "protect" us so much as help work with us to keep the discourse from going to shit. Which I think you agree with...

I agree that we have a lot of work to do around the controlling of tone, just not in the respect you do. I'd rather see people address the things that provoke the responses instead of pearl-clutching over the responses themselves.

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Yep, well put. I'd only add that the "pearl clutching" – I think you are referring to people getting upset at other members telling other posters to Fuck Off or whatever – they are reacting to another reaction itself, and it escalates.

To be fair I really don't think it's unreasonable to assume that if you have a question about something then that means several other people have asked that question and thus has been answered several times before. I too did not know what Folx meant before you just mentioned it but now I have an idea thanks to looking it up. Asking questions is very similar to asking for help with homework; when you do it you have to show that you've attempted to answer the question yourself.

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I guess I'd like to see a warning issued first when there is possibility of a benefit of the doubt. Obviously overt hate speech and n-words and that sort of thing can and should be blasted into the oort cloud immediately. But I think more early Warnings ("we're watching this") before bans would help out for those cases where inelegance or ignorance are the cause, rather than outright malice. I want to bring people to see what we see whenever possible.

Just to say, this is perfectly possible, Google's attempts at moderation are not comparable to moderation made on a much, much smaller scale.

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I don't see how.

I don't think you intend to defend "racist, sexist, skinhead Gandhi" even though you directly touch on him and the trouble surrounding his existence with an air of inevitability and acceptance. The fact that he "did the work" and was able to change is s credit to him, but it cannot be a defense, explanation, or justification of his earlier actions.

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Listen it was just a dumb joke really, I realized I was about to quote Gandhi and was just heading off the inevitable "you know he was a problematic guy" replies.

I see people get attacked for coming into threads, not with questions and vulnerabilities, but with preconceived concepts contrary to the subject of discussion and leading questions that they need to be disarmed of. It's almost never 'hey guys I think I might be wrong about this, can you help me', but usually, 'this is what i've always believed, my experiences back me up, prove me wrong'. That's not vulnerability on display, and you can't possibly be surprised that people would be weary of dealing with that.

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What did you think of this exchange (Atisha). Again the ban says there's a history there but the actual questions in the thread, ignorant as they were, did at least appear to be coming from a good place. I might be naive here, I accept that. Some people pointed out the issues, some just called him an asshole.

There are other forums which don't have these issues and they are much more strict. Half the posters on ERA wouldn't have lasted five seconds on those sites, while here bad actors and burner accounts are normalised. It'd be smaller community but a safer, more inclusive one. Too much of GAF came over and never left.

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Can you give me some links to look at? PM is ok if you don't feel like dropping them here.

I have seen "better behaved" fora but they were also much, much smaller.

This is where leadership steps in, they define the culture from the top. They have tools to stamp out all the bad actors, and the mods who protect them, if they choose.

I wish I could trust the mods here, but I don't. I've been burnt too often while bad actors get away with everything. Complain about the wrong thing to a mod and you'll be the one getting banned or simply have a mild disagreement over politics with one. No discussion with PM's, no warnings, no accountability and who would I go to if I wanted to do something about it? This isn't a safe community and too many are invested in keeping that status quo. Leadership changes but nothing really changes. I'm not alone in this, and it feeds into various communities here. It's heartbreaking. One day I'm just going to disappear and not look back. This is ignoring the off-site bullshit, too, like the secrecy of who owns the site and why Kiwi Farms have a thread directly linked to banning here and nothing is done about it.

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Well I don't feel quite as strongly as that but I hear you. And I have certainly come very close to "walking away" a few times out of frustration at how things went down.

Uh... that last link... WTF IS THAT. It's censored. Again don't want to derail but I have no idea what that's about.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

Sure, me neither. But I never said anything about sympathy, as far as I know? Wasn't trying to insinuate it either.

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Sorry, to be clear, I'm happy if a Nazi is punched. It's been demonstrated that punching Nazis is a good way to harm their ideology. It is okay to feel uncomfortable with the idea, but that you find it comparable to the opposite end of the extreme and foist that upon others is a whole different story.

 

[mORTEN]

Sorry, to be clear, I'm happy if a Nazi is punched. It's been demonstrated that punching Nazis is a good way to harm their ideology. It is okay to feel uncomfortable with the idea, but that you find it comparable to the opposite end of the extreme and foist that upon others is a whole different story.

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I didn't mean to make it seem as comparable to the opposite end of the extremes. Punching an idiot is not the same as genocide, of course.
What I said about the punch thread making me realize extremes on both sides, was not in direct relation to the punching of nazis, but some of the things that kind of grew in the fervor around it.

 

[julia crawford]

I don't see how.

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It's simple, moderation like there is in this forum does not scale, and it breaks far far before it reaches systems with the scale of Youtube and other Google services. So moderating systems at different scales needs different approaches, and while design/systemic changes can benefit forums like this one, in bigger systems that kind of design is what breaks or makes them and the experiences people have in them, with human moderation having little impact.

 

[Cyanity]

It's people like yourself lamenting cancel culture while insulting the forum and simultaneously lamenting its hostility that bothers me 🤷‍♀️

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This is exactly the type of reductive post that is giving this forum a hostile feel. And I mean reductive literally, as in you responded to paragraphs of text with a single sentence. It comes off as "fuck you, nothing you said matters and I refuse to engage with it"

 

[Akira86]

What did you think of this exchange (Atisha). Again the ban says there's a history there but the actual questions in the thread, ignorant as they were, did at least appear to be coming from a good place. I might be naive here, I accept that. Some people pointed out the issues, some just called him an asshole.

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since you asked, that whole thing with him saying his mother who is "hard r", I guess meaning she would say some racist shit if pushed to it, sees a trans woman. Then in his story, he continues to misgender her, calling her a "man dressed as a girl" under the guise of 'aw shucks I don't know any better', even after being corrected and reminded multiple times. so the exchange looks disingenuous on his (Atisha's) part. the case in example of someone who claims to be just asking questions, but is either playing at something because they ignore the obvious even when pointed out to them, or they really could be that rare good natured soul, caked in the dust of ignorance waiting to be cleaned off. But that depends on them being judged by their presentation, and his was poor. Are you that naive? I don't know.
Are you?

 

[Kyuuji]

Ok – but just remember, again, not all of us have seen everything you have.

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Fair. I just wanted to note that the sentiment you had toward me was all I was aiming to express, but appreciate the highlight is lost on others. Noted.

Agree with both these points, thanks.

Appreciate the link! I will just point out again, I never used that phrase "cancel culture".

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No problem, and just to note that it wasn't you it was them with a prior post. Appreciate that reinforces your point above.

And that's what should happen. But I've also seen people banned for saying "and i oop seems silly" and "my conservative mom freaked out when she saw a trans person in the bathroom, what should I say to her?". I know histories can play into these bans but we have no visibility on that.

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You'll have to forgive me again, but the latter was a troll and someone purposefully stumbling around. I only have history of the bans where I recognise the people, but then I don't go into the threads of other minority concerns and second guess the people that could be taken as bad-faith. Perhaps that's because of the context I have within trans threads. I have no issue with more transparent moderation and bans since it would alleviate a lot of strain in having to defend tone and reaction within them.

If I had my way, I'd put a big purple banner on top of every post box that lifts Patton Oswalt's wife's quote: "It's chaos. Be kind."
I do read a lot of trans related threads because I feel they help further my understanding of the human condition, but I almost never participate, because I am not trans, and I feel that I should mostly just listen and absorb. I can't speak to the months of whatever pattern apart from the usual shitstorm trans people are saddled with.

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Fair, and I appreciate you're willing to read and take an interest. Just know that if you did have a question, as long as you put forward your ignorance well and have done a cursory glance at Google to see if it's a quick yes/no then it won't be an issue. The past week and a bit as been some of the most heated of late, and yet within those threads there's asexual and trans people writing paragraphs to people acknowledging they don't know something but wish to so they can be informed in the future. It's just someone being banned is more noticeable when browsing than someone responding among the rest.

I think your banner at the top is a good message, but I would note that unkindness is more apparent with a "fuck you" than the types of methods we're discussing but far less harmful. One being louder then the other doesn't mean we should weight concern to it.

My point over all was, we all are responsible for the tone and culture of the forum, not just the mods. They are not really here to "protect" us so much as help work with us to keep the discourse from going to shit. Which I think you agree with...

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I do, absolutely. I'm speaking specifically about people using topics like this as a springboard to propagate the narrative that people are handled unfairly in threads over sensitive topics. It's a complete reversal of the issue that's been brought to light and finally acknowledged the past week.

Yep, well put. I'd only add that the "pearl clutching" – I think you are referring to people getting upset at other members telling other posters to Fuck Off or whatever – they are reacting to another reaction itself, and it escalates.

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I would put back that a distinction is that they're reacting to something without the context of the situation on the assumption the person is jumping the gun, whereas the initial reaction would be in full knowledge of that. In short, it should be questioned why they feel a need to react to that at all.

 

[Kyuuji]

This is exactly the type of reductive post that is giving this forum a hostile feel. And I mean reductive literally, as in you responded to paragraphs of text with a single sentence. It comes off as "fuck you, nothing you said matters and I refuse to engage with it"

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His initial post was predicated on it not having been an issue and asked for an example. I gave one, which was then disregarded in the first line of the response with "that it?".

Why would I entertain someone putting down frustrations over the past few months as "that it?". Especially when they're somehow using the moderation of GAF past as an excuse for a lack of it today.

 

[Deleted member 2625]

since you asked, that whole thing with him saying his mother who is "hard r", I guess meaning she would say some racist shit if pushed to it, sees a trans woman. Then in his story, he continues to misgender her, calling her a "man dressed as a girl" under the guise of 'aw shucks I don't know any better', even after being corrected and reminded multiple times. so the exchange looks disingenuous on his (Atisha's) part. the case in example of someone who claims to be just asking questions, but is either playing at something because they ignore the obvious even when pointed out to them, or they really could be that rare good natured soul, caked in the dust of ignorance waiting to be cleaned off. But that depends on them being judged by their presentation, and his was poor. Are you that naive? I don't know.
Are you?

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Maybe. I mean you could be right. They did correct themselves, although they then made the mistake of "born an X", which I think personally is a common mistake in how people think about trans people, and not necessarily maliciously transphobic, so I guess I'm drawing a distinction. For whatever that's worth.

I mean I really don't want to re-litigate it here but this was their last post before the ban kicked in:

My apologies for any affronts. It's genuine.
This place i consider a wealth of research with expert, at times, perspectives. I want to help turn the tide with my mother. What can i do, what can i say in this instance?

Edit:
An afterthought.... as now i've sat and thought about it, i've come up with what i think is a good and proper answer, correct me if i'm wrong, here is the synopsis.

"Mother, there are people irregardless of the gender they were born as, who identify in their hearts as another, and we should respect them irregardless because they are a fellow human being."

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I mean... it's tough. That's a loooong way to go round the bend for a troll. But then again, that poster kind of blundered into a heated thread about the community and asked some dumbass questions.

Spoiler: that said...

That said I would have banned them for use of "irregardless" 😉

I would put back that a distinction is that they're reacting to something without the context of the situation on the assumption the person is jumping the gun, whereas the initial reaction would be in full knowledge of that. In short, it should be questioned why they feel a need to react to that at all.

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I won't quote the rest because, here we are in violent agreement. And yes I agree, the above is a very important distinction.

 

[Top NHST Product]

Thank you again kyuuji for what you do. One thing I always think about are the people that say they can't voice a difference of opinion because of the place being an echochamber due to not being able to voice opinions that they do in real life. Part of the issue is that people see this place as an echochamber because they are more likely to face critism for views they believe are benign because the group they are making the statement about are actually present. It's not that this place is an echochamber but rather many posters come from them. In your personal lives if you say something slightly off about another group, chances are many around you will agree or be just as ignorant since afterall most people still live pretty segregated.

How can you not know a trans person, have limited to no understanding of the issue, decide that the correct course of action is to jump into a topic and then get surprised that you say something wrong and get push back?

What's more likely that you said something racist when it's nearly unanimous by members of that group or that your 2 to 5 black friends are correct/telling you their honest opinion and 1,000s or more black people are living in a different reality?

The truth is that for most of the marginalized people on here neither their life offline or online are lived in an echochamber. The difference is the more groups you're a part of the better it seems your chances are that you'll bite your tongue (or I guess whatever you're using to input text on here) and listen to what members of another group are saying before you jump in because you've dealt with having to defend who you are in a similar way.

If you are genuinely curious about something and slip up, apologize ask for something you can read that demonstrates a willingness to authentically increase your understanding and you'll probably be good. Or don't even ask for the material and look up some respected authors about the topic yourself before you reengage with discussion. You don't have to read the entirety of someone's works just get a better sense of what the issues are.

 

[Deleted member 2625]

Here's an idea, kind of a simple one.

Reddit has threads that are marked "Serious Discussion Only".

Would this help? Basically a "this is a sensitive topic, do not fuck around" warning at the top? Not for every thread obviously but if there was like a checkbox or something, posters wouldn't really be able to claim ignorance and the tone would be set perhaps a little better. Just a thought.

My concern is, this merry-go-round will rotate again, in a year or two, and basically repeat what happened here. We should try to figure out how to fix that.