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2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT | Hickenlooper makes it to the debate

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ThomasJames

Member
Jan 15, 2019
1,811
Well your interpretation is not inaccuratd but thats not what I intended. What I meant was that the candidates that the democratic base like enough to nominate havent been that strong on the general, which shows a dissonance.

Kerry, Dukakis, Carter and McGovern got the support of the dem base and they lost in landslides (except for Kerry).
Democrats did the right thing by embracing civil rights and rejecting the status quo which was basically that both parties until the 60's were implicit white nationalist organizations. In return, though, a lopsided amount of white people shifted to Republicans and got them 20+ years of the presidency, with a brief reprieve from Carter that only happened thanks to Watergate, and was only wrestled away from them when the Democrats deliberately became Republican lite with Clinton.

We are only, just now, getting to a point where we can actually run campaigns the way we want to and not frame everything through a conservative lens thanks to shifting demographics. That's why Stacey Abrams can come within a point of the governorship in GA. Would have been unfathomable just 10 years ago.

So I think the trend you are referring to has way more to do with the multi-decade political blowback of supporting Civil Rights, and not much to do with the candidates we were running.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,034
Ann Arbor, MI
I notice a lot of people going no big deal at a canadidate not disclosing a hire so this hire could be his attack dog while he makes a pledge to not attack other candidates and trying to cover it up.....

Are the same ones who got angry at CNN for not disclosing questioners jobs.

I would throw Kamala and Beto in the trash over this level of lying, covering up, and corruption. No hesitation.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,974
and this is something to be proud of now?
Yeah. Because politics as it's usually done in America cares more about business ethics than human lives. I reject all of that.

If you think Bernie hiring Sirota makes him less likely to help Palestine you are absolutely free to think that.

Me? It's not a blip on my radar, I'd have to see a lot worse to drop my support of him.
 

Apharmd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,113
This is only March 2019. Man this primary is hot already. This thread, too. What is it going to be like next February when votes are being cast?
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,491
Can we retitle to the thread to:
2020 Presidential Primary |OT| It's Not About Norms and Ethics In Hiring Practices
I feel like

2020 Presidential Primary |OT| It Actually Is About Norms and Ethics In Hiring Practices

would work better because of the swerve

Yeah. Because politics as it's usually done in America cares more about business ethics than human lives. I reject all of that
except for when it's convenient for you
 

ThomasJames

Member
Jan 15, 2019
1,811
I notice a lot of people going no big deal at a canadidate not disclosing a hire so this hire could be his attack dog while he makes a pledge to not attack other candidates and trying to cover it up.....

Are the same ones who got angry at CNN for not disclosing questioners jobs.

I would throw Kamala and Beto in the trash over this level of lying, covering up, and corruption. No hesitation.
There's an opening here for Lincoln Chafee to run again and scream about ethics in politics once more.

Forget all these cramps, I want to get CHAFED.
 

Latpri

Member
Apr 19, 2018
683
Its perfectly fine to attack your opponents and this primary should be a bloodbath, imo. I dont think Ive ever expressed anything differently so at the very least my morals are quite firm and solid, the foundations just in a different place than where most people ITT have them.
 

Tomohawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
740
Ya if Sirota was working for the campaign while simultaneously releasing hit pieces that's very bad and more Bernie's fault than Sirotas, though both share blame
 

brainchild

GameXplain
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
7,421
Minnesota
It doesn't bother you that he made the pledge and then covered it up that he hired Sirota to attack the other candidates to try and break it without getting caught?
I think people are just desensitized to your "the sky is falling" rhetoric. It's quite literally like disengaging from the boy who cried wolf.

There are conflicts of interest in literally every campaign this cycle (and every cycle). Was Sirota unethical at times? Sure. As a journalist, he was pretty shitty, imo, but that goes for most MSM journalists, and he's not the first journalist to favor a specific presidential candidate. The idea that most journalists are actually neutral in politics is quite laughable, and this corruption story is not going to get the traction that you think it deserves, I'll tell you that.
 

GiantBreadbug

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,186
Iitate-mura, Japan
I notice a lot of people going no big deal at a canadidate not disclosing a hire so this hire could be his attack dog while he makes a pledge to not attack other candidates and trying to cover it up.....

Are the same ones who got angry at CNN for not disclosing questioners jobs.

I would throw Kamala and Beto in the trash over this level of lying, covering up, and corruption. No hesitation.
Your hypothetical moral standards are always second to none
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,180
I notice a lot of people going no big deal at a canadidate not disclosing a hire so this hire could be his attack dog while he makes a pledge to not attack other candidates and trying to cover it up.....

Are the same ones who got angry at CNN for not disclosing questioners jobs.

I would throw Kamala and Beto in the trash over this level of lying, covering up, and corruption. No hesitation.
Bernie stans will justify anything in furtherance of their cult of personality. His stans are the mirror image of Trump cultists, willingly twisting their already malleable ethical standards to whatever shape the moment demands.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,034
Ann Arbor, MI
Its perfectly fine to attack your opponents and this primary should be a bloodbath, imo. I dont think Ive ever expressed anything differently so at the very least my morals are quite firm and solid, the foundations just in a different place than where most people ITT have them.
But you are okay with a campaign lying to the press about this and covering it up?
 

phazedplasma

Member
Oct 27, 2017
895
Cant wait for this news to rot and die in the next few hours only to have you all be the only ones to bring it up ad nausea for the next year.
 

Autodidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,633
Yeah. Because politics as it's usually done in America cares more about business ethics than human lives. I reject all of that.

If you think Bernie hiring Sirota makes him less likely to help Palestine you are absolutely free to think that.

Me? It's not a blip on my radar, I'd have to see a lot worse to drop my support of him.
What the fuck does this have to do with all the sweet tea in Georgia?

You can't excuse any unethical behavior with, "Well, yeah, but this doesn't affect Bernard's policies on Palestine." That's a non-sequitur! The Israel-Palestine conflict is deeply important, but what the hell does it have to do with Bernard secretly hiring an "objective" journalist and having him write attack pieces while publicly claiming that we're going to ~~~unite~~~?
 

Midnight Jon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,520
Ohio
Ya if Sirota was working for the campaign while simultaneously releasing hit pieces that's very bad and more Bernie's fault than Sirotas, though both share blame
honestly this is all I'm saying, that conflicts of interest are gonna pop up everywhere in campaigns but a lot of them don't rise to the level of "writing widely-read hit pieces against everyone else while the campaign's literally paying you under the table"
 

LinktothePastGOAT

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,879
I'm going to let you in on a little secret.

Political parties don't necessarily nominate the person who has the greatest chance of winning the general election.
And? LOL we dont know how Bernie would do unless you have access to a multiverse where he actually did get the nod. Therefore to argue he’d win is simply as good as saying I’d have created Windows instead of Bill Gates if I was around at the same time he was. Its a fruitless game of whatif.
 

B-Dubs

Oh well, what the hell?
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
16,430
And if people continue to push for it Bernie should fire him and apologize publicly or whatever it is people want.

But this is not going to get me to #cancelbernie because my support of him is not based on norms and ethics in hiring practices.

To me this is the kind of politics that doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things. How many people will live or die based on Bernie's hiring of Sirota?
There's a bigger picture. He was writing articles attacking Bernie's rivals without disclosing he worked for Bernie. He framed himself as a neutral arbitrator when he wasn't and Bernie's campaign allowed him to do it. It shows that Bernie (or someone in his campaign) is willing to be less than ethical if they thinks it will benefit them and they won't get caught. How is that not a huge red flag?

And keep in mind, I thought all the bitching about Sirota was dumb until this came out.

I think people are just desensitized to your "the sky is falling" rhetoric. It's quite literally like disengaging from the boy who cried wolf.

There are conflicts of interest in literally every campaign this cycle (and every cycle). Was Sirota unethical at times? Sure. As a journalist, he was pretty shitty, imo, but that goes for most MSM journalists, and he's not the first journalist to favor a specific presidential candidate. The idea that most journalists are actually neutral in politics is quite laughable, and this corruption story is not going to get the traction that you think it deserves, I'll tell you that.
No, this is worse than just having a slant. Everyone has a slant. Not everyone secretly works for a political campaign while covering the race.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,204
USA
Then yes, if that becomes the framing over the actions of Bill himself, I absolutely do think there's sexism involved in that. And my feelings on this go beyond the Clintons. Who are we to say how Hillary, or any wife, should feel or respond to accusations against their husbands? People like to forget that, unless we're talking something on a new level of vile, wives tend to also be victims in these situations. Not just in terms of vows broken, but wives often have an emotional (and religious) incentive to believe their husbands, and that's also completely taken advantage of.

So, yeah, I like to keep my thoughts on what I know Bill should have done, versus what I think Hillary should have done. Because how the heck can I know that?

Besides, it doesn't help that in a lot of these conversations, the implication is pretty naked. Hillary stayed with him...so that must mean Hillary was ok with it...and that must mean Hillary was complicit the whole time. Yeah, gross.
That's not an argument I'm making. To defend someone as a wife and not a person first is a horrible take, especially in regard to dismissing sexual assault allegations.

You're traveling down a very dangerous road instead of just recognizing the very obvious takeaway here: that it's never ok to baselessly dismiss accusations of sexual assault.

This is not misogyny. It's supporting victims of sexual assault, period. Part of the reason they don't step forward is because they're afraid they won't be believed. Do you understand that?
 
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higemaru

Member
Nov 30, 2017
1,582
So Bernie saying they would remain above board and not go negative was a lie. We can all agree on this now. Is anyone willing to deny this?

He hired Sirota MONTHS ago. Kept it secret and lied to press about it. Let him pretend to be a journalist and go scorched earth on Kamala and Beto for the campaign on the campaigns payroll.
and look how much it did. harris and o'rourke are still polling just fine. You'll just take anything and everything to attack the campaign because you straight up don't like Sanders. I agree that what Sirota did was shady but it is no worse than Debbie Wasserman-Schultz ferverntly backing the Clinton campaign, I'd go so far as to say it's actually much less worse because Sirota isn't the DNC Chair.
 

Lothars

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,807
It bothers me that he made it in the first place, because it was a mistake and bad politics.
That's bernie in a nutshell. a Mistake and Bad politics.

Bernie stans will justify anything in furtherance of their cult of personality. His stans are the mirror image of Trump cultists, willingly twisting their already malleable ethical standards to whatever shape the moment demands.
Pretty much. It's insane to keep seeing.
 
Mar 9, 2018
2,624
They really should have revealed the association. From an ethics standpoint and politics standpoint. I don't even understand how they think this arrangement was beneficial in the short term or long term. The type of people who are going to listen to Sirota were already pretty securely Sanders.
 

Protein

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,226
Still firmly on Bernie's team, but I can be pried off with policy. Kamala and Warren are getting my attention as well. Warren has incredible policy so far.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,034
Ann Arbor, MI
I think people are just desensitized to your "the sky is falling" rhetoric. It's quite literally like disengaging from the boy who cried wolf.

There are conflicts of interest in literally every campaign this cycle (and every cycle). Was Sirota unethical at times? Sure. As a journalist, he was pretty shitty, imo, but that goes for most MSM journalists, and he's not the first journalist to favor a specific presidential candidate. The idea that most journalists are actually neutral in politics is quite laughable, and this corruption story is not going to get the traction that you think it deserves, I'll tell you that.
Bernie made a pledge to not attack the other candidates like this and stay positive and above board.

He then hired someone to do it for him and then covered it up and lied about it to the press.

I am not sure why you are tying to spin this.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,974
It means I see through your lame selective application of your moral and ethical standards. You may as well just delete everything in that post and write, "For the greater good".
It is for the "greater good". Some people think electing the incrementalist is "for the greater good" and some people think electing the radical is "for the greater good". People have different ideas of what "the greater good is", and make their moral decisions based on that.

You can't excuse any unethical behavior with, "Well, yeah, but this doesn't affect Bernard's policies on Palestine." That's a non-sequitur! The Israel-Palestine conflict is deeply important, but what the hell does it have to do with Bernard secretly hiring an "objective" journalist and having him write attack pieces while publicly claiming that we're going to ~~~unite~~~?
That has nothing do with why this article is showing corruption in the campaign. The article isnt "hey Sirota is bad". It's clear you didnt even look at the tweet....come on man.
Lmfao.

Truly principle progressives yall
Dude, this is the kinda shit that gets you fired from jobs. This is not nothing, it's a pretty huge ethical breach on Sirota's part.
People explicitly or implicitly challenged my support for Bernie and my "progressive values". I explained what moral system I used to arrive at my "who cares" attitude about this.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,034
Ann Arbor, MI
People sure love to bring up Betos pledge about donations from executives. Which they even concede he likely didn’t even realize he broke.

But I guess it’s okay for Bernie to intentionally break this pledge and try to actually cover it up and hide it from the press.
 

Royalan

Yeah I'm in my bag, but I'm in his too.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
3,463
I think people are just desensitized to your "the sky is falling" rhetoric. It's quite literally like disengaging from the boy who cried wolf.

There are conflicts of interest in literally every campaign this cycle (and every cycle). Was Sirota unethical at times? Sure. As a journalist, he was pretty shitty, imo, but that goes for most MSM journalist, and he's not the first journalist to favor a specific presidential candidate. The idea that most journalists are actually neutral in politics is quite laughable, and this corruption story is not going to get the traction that you think it deserves, I'll tell you that.
But if I'm following this new break correctly...Sirato has a preferential canadidate, and was doing hits on that candidate's competitors...while secretly being on his preferred candidate's payroll?
 

GrapeApes

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,921
Its perfectly fine to attack your opponents and this primary should be a bloodbath, imo. I dont think Ive ever expressed anything differently so at the very least my morals are quite firm and solid, the foundations just in a different place than where most people ITT have them.
K. Why hide it and have your attack dog claim he's a journalist?
 

brainchild

GameXplain
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
7,421
Minnesota
Bernie made a pledge to not attack the other candidates like this and stay positive and above board.

He then hired someone to do it for him and then covered it up and lied about it to the press.

I am not sure why you are tying to spin this.
I'm not spinning anything. I just know not to take what you say literally as you've consistently had some of the most disingenuous posts I've ever seen on this forum and I've called you out on it many times. Where there is a hint of truth, you dial it up with hyperbole over 9000. It doesn't faze me whatsoever.
 
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