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Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
So you might get GOAT level games but you're still going to get upset because the games didn't take full advantage of the hardware. Good grief.

Jesus fucking Christ are you being serious right now?

I don't have any problems with there being cross-gen games in and of itself. They have always been a thing and the PS5 will have them too.

The only problem I have is that there are no next gen only games alongside those cross gen games for the first two years.

I also have a problem with the fact that alot of people here are acting like cross-gen games will not be held back whatsoever by the shitty hardware of the current generation.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
And then you wake up from that dream
tenor.gif
It is not impossible, especially if once they are free from current gen tech's constraints.
 

Kreten

Banned
Nov 16, 2019
323
That's because hellblade 2 is next gen only and not crossgen.

And your biggest concern matches the concerns many have about ms choosing to have all their titles be cross gen for the first two years.

You Can't honestly expect them to have two seperate studios work on every crossgen game right like they did with forza. (I haven't played that game and i don't know how different both versions are)
at least another team within a studio. This team doesn't need to design a game, simply remove things like number of AI, foliage, compress textures. It's very similar architecture so not much work to be done. It's possible to even have AI do the work.

They have demonstrated Halo automatically downscaled to windows phone so it doesn't have to be a complicated process.


From personal experience with 3d models it is just a click of a button to reduce quality and number of triangles etc on it.

It really would make no sense making a game for xbox one and then upscaling etc to Series X as Xbox one X can already do that with all of em at around 4k so what would they do with the rest of the 15TF GCN if they only use 6 for upscaling the game etc.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,572
That's because hellblade 2 is next gen only and not crossgen.

And your biggest concern matches the concerns many have about ms choosing to have all their titles be cross gen for the first two years.

You Can't honestly expect them to have two seperate studios work on every crossgen game right like they did with forza. (I haven't played that game and i don't know how different both versions are)

Microsoft has been using multiple teams and/or studios to help maximize their ports for a while now. I think the better questions is should we expect them to shy away from that expense given the current stakes and their current MO?
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
Every game is not your hypothetical HZD. Every developer is going to approach crossgen in the same manner. But we have an example of how MS has approached crossgen, and it's not nearly as simplistic as you suggest.

Yes there will be certain design approaches that are impossible on old gen games (I'm not sure flying mounts would be one of them considering we've had open world games with flight for years)
But who's to say the developer was going to choose to use the surplus processing power in that manner anyway?

You're coming in with this preconceived notion that if MS first party were tasked with making an nextgen exclusive launch title, that their first order of business would be implementing gameplay elements that were previously impossible rather than more computationally intensive iteratiosn of what came before. The latter has been the approach launch games have gone with for at least the last few generations

This seems like pretty weird reasoning to me.

Clearly the last few generations haven't seen the HUGE jumps in CPU, I/o and mass storage device transfer speed as we're seeing here being touted (by the companies themselves) as the game changers.

Given how much devs and publishers have already been gushing over how much the new CPUs and SSDs, that have long been bottlenecks in game design, why is it so difficult to believe that said developers don't already have ideas about how they are gonna leverage those new technologies?

The creative development process is iterative. Meaning many ideas for mechanics and gameplay systems get left on the cutting room floor because of hardware limitations. Ask any dev and they'll tell you a long laundry list of things they may have wanted to do in games they worked on in the past but couldn't because of hardware limitations.

Those same ideas, with the advent of these new consoles, suddenly become viable. And so you can bet your ass that a huge swathe of first and third party devs, upon knowing the specs for next-gen consoles started going back through their back catalogue of abandoned ideas to find the most exciting ones that will now become viable.

I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised by the types of new gameplay experiences we get come next-gen console launch. Even at launch we'll start to see the beginning of new ideas manifesting in the early launch games with things that clearly aren't possible on current gen. And as we get deeper into next-gen and devs get more confident in both their next-gen development workflow we'll start to games more ambitious than we could have ever dreamed to be playing on consoles.

Next-gen is gonna be lit.
 
Aug 26, 2019
6,342
I think it's an interesting debate:

The next-gen exclusive that's effectively a glorified tech demo, but does its job by showing off the hardware

vs

The cross-gen game that doesn't make the most of the hardware, but has enough depth to be a good game

There are strong arguments to be made for both sides here.
 

Kreten

Banned
Nov 16, 2019
323
Sony hasn't shown anything yet so we don't know what next-gen games will look like. But we do know what Xbox One games in 4K look like. That's the point.
This is just a trolling point, so what you are saying is that MS is releasing a console with performance in games at 2.5-3x of xbox one x and will only play games as good as xbox one x? This defies simple logic!
 
Dec 8, 2018
1,911
No offense to Dark1x But I don't think MS is suggesting they will be funding games today with the xbox one as the baseline. They've had several titles in development for years which include halo/everwild. Those games will hit xbox one, because they were built with xbox one in mind, I can't get behind them arbitrarily creating faux exclusivity to satisfy new boxes. I doubt hellblade 2 is being funded as an xbox one title at this point.

Xbox just as Sony know when their consoles are gonna launch. Sony decided to put their developers on building games exclusive for the lunch and going forward PS5 and Xbox did not for the XsX.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
at least another team within a studio. This team doesn't need to design a game, simply remove things like number of AI, foliage, compress textures. It's very similar architecture so not much work to be done. It's possible to even have AI do the work.

You are not making your case very well. If all that needs to be done, to make a next gen game work on current gen, is to remove a few bushes, lower the res and textures and lower the amount of Npc's a bit then the game was never made from the ground up in the first place.

Which is exactly what people are having a discussion about.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
Yep, Breath of the Wild is cross gen and gets high praise everywhere.

Breath of the Wild is an interesting case, as the Wii U and Switch are closer in power than an Xbox One and the rumored 12 TF Xbox Series X. Also Breath of the Wild, an amazing game, doesn't run all that well and wasn't praised for its technical beats.

I think it's an interesting debate:

The next-gen exclusive that's effectively a glorified tech demo, but does its job by showing off the hardware

vs

The cross-gen game that doesn't make the most of the hardware, but has enough depth to be a good game

There are strong arguments to be made for both sides here.

No one is arguing for an Uncharted Golden Abyss bro. No offense to the Bend fans out there.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,354
Every game is not your hypothetical HZD. Every developer is going to approach crossgen in the same manner. But we have an example of how MS has approached crossgen, and it's not nearly as simplistic as you suggest.

Yes there will be certain design approaches that are impossible on old gen games (I'm not sure flying mounts would be one of them considering we've had open world games with flight for years)
But who's to say the developer was going to choose to use the surplus processing power in that manner anyway?

You're coming in with this preconceived notion that if MS first party were tasked with making an nextgen exclusive launch title, that their first order of business would be implementing gameplay elements that were previously impossible rather than more computationally intensive iteratiosn of what came before. The latter has been the approach launch games have gone with for at least the last few generations

You seem to be confuse in what i saying i not talking about MS first party per say .
I am talking about old systems holding back the new ones .
It don't have to be MS it can be anyone .

Like you said different games have different design approaches.
The reason why i was using HZD was because co op and flying were two issues that PS4 stop from happening in that game.
So if we get them on PS5 it because PS5 make it possible to do and PS4 would have hold back HZD2 .

IMO when saying a system can hold back a game it's best to uses a certain IP and then show what the new system can do for it .
Since like you said design approach can be very different from game to game.
Some thing like the new GOW the SSD can be a big change in certain aspect that would matter to GOW but not other games.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,042
This is just a trolling point, so what you are saying is that MS is releasing a console with performance in games at 2.5-3x of xbox one x and will only play games as good as xbox one x? This defies simple logic!
No, I'm not saying XSX == One X. I'm saying the XSX (for the first year or two) will only be running first-party games designed to also run on the regular old One. This limits design, scope, and other areas. We have no idea what next-gen games look like yet.

We're reaching broken record territory here.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
This would be like me saying that you're only defending this because you're a fan of Xbox. Does that seem fair and engender worthwhile discussion? Or does it in fact enflame things and only serve to make the discussion a bunch of mudslinging? We can discuss these things without analyzing people's post history.



This is ignoring a lot of context, like how powerful the machines are, which models, do we include PC, etc. Also, even if all things being equal this is the case, in this hypothetical I'd still say they could have looked better if they didn't have to worry about last gen!
You're right. My bad.
 

Jeff6851

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
753
Breath of the Wild is an interesting case, as the Wii U and Switch are closer in power than an Xbox One and the rumored 12 TF Xbox Series X. Also Breath of the Wild, an amazing game, doesn't run all that well and wasn't praised for its technical beats.



No one is arguing for an Uncharted Golden Abyss bro. No offense to the Bend fans out there.

Yeah, it runs very poorly but despite that it's has a 97 on MC and won all kinds of GotY awards. Good games are good games.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
I think it's an interesting debate:

The next-gen exclusive that's effectively a glorified tech demo, but does its job by showing off the hardware

vs

The cross-gen game that doesn't make the most of the hardware, but has enough depth to be a good game

There are strong arguments to be made for both sides here.

Being a next-gen exclusive doesn't preclude it from being a quality game.

Equally, being cross-gen doesn't automatically mean it will be a quality game either.

Examples?

COD: Ghosts == utter shite, purple grape flavoured tripe
COD: Advanced Warefare == stunning next-gen exclusive and an all round superior game in practically every area.
 
Aug 26, 2019
6,342
Being a next-gen exclusive doesn't preclude it from being a quality game.

Equally, being cross-gen doesn't automatically mean it will be a quality game either.

Examples?

COD: Ghosts == utter grey, purple grape flavoured tripe
COD: Advanced Warefare == stunning next-gen exclusive and an all round superior game in practically every area.
Talking about launch games. Should've specified that.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
I think it's an interesting debate:

The next-gen exclusive that's effectively a glorified tech demo, but does its job by showing off the hardware

vs

The cross-gen game that doesn't make the most of the hardware, but has enough depth to be a good game

There are strong arguments to be made for both sides here.


Why Can't we have option 3?

A next gen only game that is actually a good game and that shows what the hardware is capable of?
 
Nov 11, 2017
2,744
The games can be held back and still be good. I don't get why that is so difficult to understand or accept. As long as MS produces quality content, it shouldn't be a problem to concede the limitations point.
Yeah and it will temporarily, I think it hints at how vast ms production pipeline actually is. You will see next gen games
Xbox just as Sony know when their consoles are gonna launch. Sony decided to put their developers on building games exclusive for the lunch and going forward PS5 and Xbox did not for the XsX.
Different visions and that's fine. I'm absolutely ok with ms allowing their games to hit both systems.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
Yeah, it runs very poorly but despite that it's has a 97 on MC and won all kinds of GotY awards. Good games are good games.

I'm not disputing it, I love the game. The discussion is more along the lines of "how do the decisions made by Sony and Microsoft affect console gaming going forward". If your response is, good games are good games, I'm not really sure what to say haha.

You're right. My bad.

giphy.gif


Thanks for bearing with my stubbornness :).
 
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grosbard

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
767
Jesus fucking Christ are you being serious right now?

I don't have any problems with there being cross-gen games in and of itself. They have always been a thing and the PS5 will have them too.

The only problem I have is that there are no next gen only games alongside those cross gen games for the first two years.

I also have a problem with the fact that alot of people here are acting like cross-gen games will not be held back whatsoever by the shitty hardware of the current generation.
Jesus fucking Christ are you being serious right now?

I don't have any problems with there being cross-gen games in and of itself. They have always been a thing and the PS5 will have them too.

The only problem I have is that there are no next gen only games alongside those cross gen games for the first two years.

I also have a problem with the fact that alot of people here are acting like cross-gen games will not be held back whatsoever by the shitty hardware of the current generation.
Exactly. You're saying it's not enough to get GOAT level games. You ALSO have to have games that take advantage of the next gen hardware. Hahaha good grief.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,785
This is ignoring a lot of context, like how powerful the machines are, which models, do we include PC, etc. Also, even if all things being equal this is the case, in this hypothetical I'd still say they could have looked better if they didn't have to worry about last gen!

But then a subset would accuse MS of lying and abandoning those that they pledged never to leave behind :)

I hear you, but MS has been consistent in their plans. Horizon 6, Halo 7 etc... Will be true exclusives. I can wait for that. The key issue for MS is whether PS5 exclusives show their games up. I have a hard time believing that would happen, but who knows! They are locked into this strategy regardless.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
It's a lot to ask for at launch.

Sure usually the real good games get released when the generation has been going for a while but i don't think it's impossible for launch games to also be good.

I also feel that we are allowed to have certain expectations if they want us to buy their shiny new hardware.

Are our expectations going to be met? No idea but i sure hope so.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,572
This seems like pretty weird reasoning to me.

Clearly the last few generations haven't seen the HUGE jumps in CPU, I/o and mass storage device transfer speed as we're seeing here being touted (by the companies themselves) as the game changers.

Given how much devs and publishers have already been gushing over how much the new CPUs and SSDs, that have long been bottlenecks in game design, why is it so difficult to believe that said developers don't already have ideas about how they are gonna leverage those new technologies?

The creative development process is iterative. Meaning many ideas for mechanics and gameplay systems get left on the cutting room floor because of hardware limitations. Ask any dev and they'll tell you a long laundry list of things they may have wanted to do in games they worked on in the past but couldn't because of hardware limitations.

Those same ideas, with the advent of these new consoles, suddenly become viable. And so you can bet your ass that a huge swathe of first and third party devs, upon knowing the specs for next-gen consoles started going back through their back catalogue of abandoned ideas to find the most exciting ones that will now become viable.

I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised by the types of new gameplay experiences we get come next-gen console launch. Even at launch we'll start to see the beginning of new ideas manifesting in the early launch games with things that clearly aren't possible on current gen. And as we get deeper into next-gen and devs get more confident in both their next-gen development workflow we'll start to games more ambitious than we could have ever dreamed to be playing on consoles.

Next-gen is gonna be lit.

Ideas.

I'm sure developers absolutely have ideas about how they are going to own these SSDs and CPUs this gen. And they'll do it eventually. But translating these ideas into some of the grandiose concepts people are expecting at launch is going to be a tall order.. Because executing these ideas in a successful manner will be accompanied with a need to retune basically everything about your preexisting code and designes to support these ideas.

I think people are grossly overestimating how ambitious launch games will be. They will be iterative... there will be the obvious gains (better graphical effects, faster loading) with hints at what's to come.
 
Aug 26, 2019
6,342
It's still a false dichotomy, because the choice of target platform has no deterministic bearing on the eventual quality of the game.

OG Xbox launched with Halo:CE and that is one of greatest games ever made.
Since then, how many truly great launch games have there been?

Here's my thinking — let's say that Sony/MS can get their 1st party devs a workable set of specs 3 years in advance. They only have 3 years to code for a set of specs that are possibly changing over the course of development. Not an ideal scenario for developing a game, even one of limited scope. On top of that, the games don't get the benefit of a flexible deadline, because that console launch date sure ain't moving. How many polished/quality games are made in 3 years nowadays?
 

Deleted member 54073

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 22, 2019
3,983
Why Can't we have option 3?

A next gen only game that is actually a good game and that shows what the hardware is capable of?
Exactly. Guerrilla would have been well aware of type of specs Sony were going to use for the PS5 and would have started to make a sequel to Horizon right after they released the original based on those.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
Exactly. You're saying it's not enough to get GOAT level games. You ALSO have to have games that take advantage of the next gen hardware. Hahaha good grief.

What you are saying now is completely different from the post that I responded to. I'm not sure if you are trying to be a troll or not.

Anyways I can only hope that the crossgen games are going to be GOATs but we don't know that do we? And i don't think it's unreasonable to expect there to be next gen only games within the first two years of the launch of a NEXT GEN console.

I wouldn't need to buy a next gen console to play those GOAT crossgen games now would I?

And you know what would be even better than a GOAT crossgen game on a next gen console? A GOAT next gen game on a next gen console.
 
Aug 26, 2019
6,342
Exactly. Guerrilla would have been well aware of type of specs Sony were going to use for the PS5 and would have started to make a sequel to Horizon right after they released the original based on those.
And what if 3.5 years isn't enough time to develop the sequel that they want to make? Assuming they started work on the sequel after the original game released, and not after Frozen Wilds.
 

Brees2Thomas

Member
Dec 27, 2019
1,525
Do you all believe, due to this announcement about no first-party exclusives through first year or two, that MS won't price their new console above $499? I think they can't, assuming limitations on the XSX the first few years.
 
Dec 8, 2018
1,911
No I put a bunch of people on ignore for a while so you were probably grouped in there.

Anyway, I don't see the issue. Games coming out in the first year of the XSX started development while the Xbox One was still the main platform. I don't think Xbox One should be supported forever, but also understand why they don't want to dump the Xbox One so quickly.

If there are signicant issues due to supporting Xbox one for literally a single year then I guess you have the right to complain.

And games coming out for the PS5 only started their development when PS4 was the main platform????

And since I asked you this twice and both times earlier you refused to answer me, perhaps since I was ignored, I want you to answer me this.

You in this very thread not only wanted to start a conversation about how unimpressed you were with the current gen first party games and especially Xbox according to you and how you wanted to be blown away and see creativity from them again.

No here you are defending the same first party that you want to blow you away and be creative but have no trouble defending for not going the route that would lead to games that have the largest opportunity to impress and be creative namely next gen only games.

Explain this reasoning to me now that I know you read what I say.

Or am I going on the ignored list again?
 

pixelation

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,548
I think it's an interesting debate:

The next-gen exclusive that's effectively a glorified tech demo, but does its job by showing off the hardware

vs

The cross-gen game that doesn't make the most of the hardware, but has enough depth to be a good game

There are strong arguments to be made for both sides here.
When I buy a next gen console I do it because I wanna see games that would not be able to run on previous gen. I am really not looking for "good games" primarily because those will come eventually.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,107
I would prefer if MS made games for One X and next-gen instead of bringing the woefully underpowered One into it. I think that would be a good compromise.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
This is what I want to see from Horizon 2 on PS5. Truly MASSIVE machines migrating together in herds. Not on predetermined routes either, just entirely dynamic. That's next-gen to me.

Definitely. Having machines roam instead of having them limited to certain zones would be great. You could cheese certain fights because of the aggro field. Between that and a much much better FoV and the chance to murder Ted Faro, I'm super hyped about a Horizon sequel.
 

Deleted member 54073

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 22, 2019
3,983
And what if 3.5 years isn't enough time to develop the sequel that they want to make? Assuming they started work on the sequel after the original game released, and not after Frozen Wilds.
Then it'll be released when it's ready. As far as I'm aware Sony has been pretty good with letting studios get on with it.
 
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