PS5 and Xbox Series speculation launch thread |OT9| - For flops sake!

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  • Mecha Meister

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    Previous threads:
    PS5 and next Xbox launch speculation - timing and specifications

    PS5 and next Xbox launch speculation - Post E3 2018

    Next gen PS5 and next Xbox launch speculation - Secret sauces spicing 2019

    Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread - MY ANACONDA DON'T WANT NONE

    Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA

    Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT6| - Mostly Fan Noise and Hot Air

    Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - nm

    Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT8| - The Dark Tower

    Threadmarks
    Kleegamefan - Verifed by ZhugeEx and Verified by Hecht
    Kleegamefan - Next Generation Console Information (OT6) - Verifed by ZhugeEx
    Kleegamefan - Next Generation Console Information V2 (OT7) - Verifed by ZhugeEx
    Kleegamefan - Next Generation Console Information V3 - Verifed by ZhugeEx

    Kleegamefan - Next Gen APUs have VRS
    Patent - New controller design compared with DualShock 4
    Patent - New controller design featuring a microphone

    Table of Contents
    (Use Ctrl + F or web browser find functions to search for the numbers in brackets to navigate to the related sections)

    (1) Official Next Generation Console information revealed so far
    (2) AMD Technology (Zen 2, RDNA)
    (3) Patents
    (4) Rumours and information
    (5) Digital Foundry: PS5 and Xbox Series X GPU specs leak: how powerful is next-gen?
    (6) Digital Foundry: Radeon RDNA vs GCN: how much faster is AMD's next-gen architecture
    (7) Digital Foundry: Zen 2 and NAVI PC Build
    (8) Power and thermal constraints
    (9) Impressions on Xbox Series X's design
    (10) RX 5700 Series GPU Specifications
    (11) What can we expect to see from Next Generation Games?
    (12) Real-time Ray Tracing
    (13) Star Citizen - An example of a game that benefits from hardware that trascends current generation consoles
    (14) Current affairs regarding Zen 2's performance and Intel's offerings.

    (1)
    Official Next Generation Console information revealed so far:
    PlayStation 5

    • Coming Holiday 2020
    • Zen 2 - 8 Cores 16 Threads - 7nm (Unknown clock-speeds)
    • AMD Radeon NAVI GPU - 7nm (Unknown clock-speeds and core count)
    • Ray tracing support (Hardware-accelerated)
    • 8K Output support
    • SSD (allegedly faster than PC solutions available at the time of publication)
    • PS4 Backwards compatibility
    • 4K Bluray player
    • 100GB optical disc support for games
    • Having an SSD removes the need for data duplication, this was used to allow Hard Disk Drives to read the data faster. This consumes more disc space than necessarily. With an SSD, data duplication is no longer needed, so game developers can save space or use it for other things.
    • Devkit design is confirmed to be real, no acknowledgement whether the final console will resemble it.
    • Due to having an SSD, booting and loading times will be faster. World streaming in games will also be faster, and more data can be streamed in.
    DualShock 5 Features Revealed so far:
    • Controller Features:
    • Adaptive triggers - offering varying levels of resistance which can be used to express tension when using weapons, etc.
    • Haptic Feedback (Highly programmable voice-coil actuators)
      Can convey the feel of traversing through different terrain.
      Sand can feel slow and sluggish, while mud can feel slow and soggy. (as mentioned in the Wired Interview).
      The difference between driving on dirt and on a track can also be conveyed.
    • Improved speaker
    • USB Type-C Connector
    • Larger battery capacity
    • Allegedly lighter than the current Xbox controller with batteries in it.
    • The one used in the second Wired Interview looks like the DualShock 4
    Operating System Improvements Revealed so far:
    • Can choose to install the single player portion of a game, and install the multiplayer later, or install the entire game and delete the portion of the game you want after.
    • Multiplayer game servers will provide information such as joinable activities.
    • Single-player games will provide information such as the available missions you can play and the rewards you can obtain when you complete them. The user interface will also providing the choices of rewards you will have available to you.
    Wired Exclusives - Mark Cerny on the PlayStation 5
    First article - Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStation
    Second article - Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5

    Revealed at E3 2019: Xbox Project Scarlett - E3 2019 - Reveal Trailer

    Xbox Series X:
    • Coming Holiday 2020
    • Zen 2 CPU (Unknown clock-speeds, and whether it will have SMT)
    • RDNA GPU (Unknown clock-speeds and core count)
    • Vertical and Horizontal Orientation
    • GDDR6 Memory
    • Up to 8K resolution support
    • Up to 120 fps support
    • Hardware-accelerated Ray tracing support
    • Variable Refresh Rate Support
    • Variable Rate Shading Support
    • NVME SSD
    • Backwards Compatible
    • Xbox One Controllers are Forwards Compatible
    • Suspend and resume multiple games
    Xbox Series X Controller
    • New D-Pad
    • Share button for game clips and screenshots
    • Compatible with Windows 10 PCs and Xbox One consoles
    Xbox - The New Xbox Series X
    Xbox - Power Your Dreams with Xbox Series X, Available Holiday 2020
    GameSpot: Xbox Series X - Exclusive First Look and Interview

    (2)
    AMD Technology

    AMD - RDNA (GPU) Architecture
    • A new 7nm GPU architecture
    • New Compute Unit Design with improved efficiency and increased IPC offering 1.25x performance per clock
    • Features higher clock speeds and gaming performance at lower power requirements
    • First RDNA GPUs available in July, starting with the RX 5700 series GPUs
    RDNA Whitepaper

    It is important to note that The PS5 and Project Scarlett are not necessarily going to be using GPUs based on the RX 5700 Series.
    The RX 5700 Series GPUs have no hardware ray tracing capabilities, while the PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X have been confirmed to have hardware ray tracing capabilities.

    RDNA Architecture was designed with features enabled for ecosystem readiness. Expect top to bottom scalability from mobile to cloud. RDNA architecture sets a new foundation to scale across the next generation of high-performance gaming platforms. RDNA architecture delivers a design packed with faster performance, higher efficiency, and top to bottom scalability.
    Zen 2 (CPU) - features many improvements such as:
    • Improved Branch Prediction
    • Single operation AVX2
    • Larger L3 Cache (2x size of Zen and Zen+)
    • 15% higher IPC
    (3)
    Patents
    Becareful with patents, don't take everything you read in a patent to mean that it will be implemented in a company's next product, as some things that companies patent don't always come to fruition.

    PlayStation 5
    PS5 - a patent dive into what might be the tech behind Sony's SSD customisations (technical!)
    V has come to (PS5 dev kit design?)

    New PlayStation VR
    Possible PSVR2 patents emerge (inside-out tracking, wireless)

    DualShock 5
    DualShock 5 Patent
    DualShock 5 Microphone
    DualShock 5 vs DualShock 4

    Potential DualShock 5 differences found in patents:
    • Microphone
    • No light bar
    PlayStation 5 Development Kit
    This patent has been discovered under YUSUHIRO OOTOR's name, showcasing a design for an electronic device which was rumoured to be the PlayStation 5's Development KIt.



    The existence of this development kit has been confirmed in the second Wired Interview.

    Next, a version of Gran Turismo Sport that Sony had ported over to a PS5 devkit—a devkit that on quick glance looks a lot like the one Gizmodo reported on last week. (The company refused to comment on questions about how the devkit's form factor might compare to what's being considered for the consumer product.)
    PlayStation 5 SSD customizations

    Gofreak found a patent possibly relating to the PS5's SSD. They then proceed to break it down in this thread:
    PS5 - a patent dive into what might be the tech behind Sony's SSD customisations (technical!)

    This will be one for people interested in some potentially more technical speculation. I posted in the next-gen speculation thread, but was encouraged to spin it off into its own thread.

    I did some patent diving to see if I could dig up any likely candidates for what Sony's SSD solution might be.

    I found several Japanese SIE patents from Saito Hideyuki along with a single (combined?) US application that appear to be relevant.

    The patents were filed across 2015 and 2016.

    Caveat: This is an illustrative embodiment in a patent application. i.e. Maybe parts of it will make it into a product, maybe all of it, maybe none of it. Approach it speculatively.

    That said, it perhaps gives an idea of what Sony has been researching. And does seem in line with what Cerny talked about in terms of customization across the stack to optimize performance.

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2017/0097897.html
    The TLDR is

    - some hardware changes vs the typical inside the SSD (SRAM for housekeeping and data buffering instead of DRAM)
    - some extra hardware and accelerators in the system for handling file IO tasks independent of the main CPU
    - at the OS layer, a second file system customised for these changes

    all primarily aimed at higher read performance and removing potential bottlenecks for data that is written less often than it is read, like data installed from a game disc or download.
    (4)
    Rumours and information

    More PlayStation 5 Development kit sightings.



    PS5 and Next Gen Xbox
    Jason Schreier's sources claim that the PS5 and next gen Xbox have similar specs, and that the PS5 has a strong focus on accessibility, this possibly points towards a focus on shorter loading times when compared to the current generation consoles.
    Microsoft is allegedly behind on communication compared to Sony.

    Jason Schreier said:
    A few more next-gen tidbits:
    - MS has been well behind Sony w/r/t communication, but that probably won't matter next fall
    - Whispers suggest PS5 and XB2 have similar specs (and both sound VERY powerful)
    - PS5 strategy is to be as accessible as possible (hence "no load times")
    Tweet

    Next Gen Xbox:

    Memory Capacity Speculation

    When Project Scarlett was revealed, it was speculated to have around 10 memory chips based on images of a PCB shown in the Project Scarlett reveal video, potentially giving it a 320-bit memory bus, ram capacity could range between 10 and 20GB. On the topic of this, in 2016 Microsoft showcased a render of the Xbox One X's board while the system was in development and the number of chips were able to match up with the number of chips the retail system has.
    Its important to note that things may be subject to change but this could mean something.

    Recent rumours have suggested a 16 GB memory setup which would be somewhat odd to see with that number of memory chips:
    Windows Central Inside the target specs of the next Xbox 'Project Scarlett,' 'Anaconda', and 'Lockhart'

    There was rumoured to be two models, Codenamed Lockhart and Anaconda, with one being more powerful than the other.
    Now, only one model known as "Xbox Series X" has been officially revealed by Microsoft. Rumours of a second model known as Lockhart have appeared again, Tom Warren and Jason Schreier have made comments on these rumours which suggests that Lockhart could may coexist with Scarlett.
    (Pre E3 2019) - Windows Central: Xbox 'Scarlett,' 'Anaconda' and 'Lockhart:' Everything (we think) we know

    Scarlett - Xbox Series X
    Scarlett, now known as Xbox Series X is the only next generation console revealed so far by Microsoft.

    Tom Warren (Verge Senior Editor) has said in a tweet that "hardly anyone" has a Scarlett dev kit, and those which are in the hands of developers are not final hardware.



    Phil Spencer (Head of Xbox) has a Project Scarlett console at home.


    Lockhart
    Lockhart is rumored to be a less powerful next generation console than Scarlett, it may also lack a disc drive.

    Jason Schreier said:
    Some next-gen news: Microsoft is still planning a cheaper version of the next Xbox, code-named Lockhart, sources tell Kotaku, despite rumors in June that it had been canceled. And more:
    Tweet

    Kotaku - Sources: Microsoft Is Still Planning A Cheaper, Disc-Less Next-Gen Xbox
    Jason Schreier said:
    In June, Microsoft announced Project Scarlett, a new iteration of the Xbox that the company said would “set a new bar for console power, speed and performance.” What Microsoft didn’t say is that it is also working on a lower-cost, disc-less version of Scarlett, code-named Lockhart, according to four people briefed on the company’s plans.
    Rumour: WindowsCentral - Inside the target specs of the next Xbox 'Project Scarlett,' 'Anaconda', and 'Lockhart'

    Microsoft is gearing up to reveal a two-pronged attack for next-gen consoles, complete with a more affordable SKU, dubbed "Lockhart," and a more beastly premium SKU, codenamed "Anaconda." We have no idea what the next-gen consoles will look like, or be officially named when the time comes, but we do now have a credible idea of what specs these systems are targeting.

    We believe the information we've received below from multiple sources, but as always, take these rumors with a pinch of salt until we get official confirmation from Microsoft itself. Plans can and do change as we move towards production. Xbox Scarlett is due to launch in 2020, in time for the holiday season.
    These are the alleged target specs for Lockhart and Anaconda, these specs have not been officially confirmed.

    Lockhart Target specs
    • Zen 2 - 8 Cores 16 Threads at 3.5GHz - 7nm​

    • 12GB memory​

    • GPU - 4 TF NAVI​
    Anaconda Target specs
    • Zen 2 - 8 Cores 16 Threads at 3.5GHz - 7nm​

    • 16GB memory (13GB usable)​

    • GPU - 12 TF NAVI​
    Next Gen Consoles:
    The franchlse producer of Warface has said that the CPUs in the Next Generation Consoles have a 50% increase in processor frequency.
    GamingBolt: PS5 And Xbox Scarlett Feature About 50% Increased Processor Frequency, Says Warface Dev

    Base Consoles
    PlayStation 4 CPU: 1.6GHz (x1.5) = 2.4GHz
    Xbox One CPU: 1.75GHz (x1.5) = 2.625GHz

    Upgraded Consoles
    PlayStation 4 Pro CPU: 2.13GHz (x1.5) = 3.195GHz
    Xbox One X CPU: 2.3GHz (x1.5) = 3.45GHz

    Judging by this comment, we could be looking at CPU clock speeds between 2.4-3.45GHz if they're referring to a 50% increase from both the base and the upgraded consoles. A 3.45GHz clock speed is pretty close to the alleged CPU clock speed for Lockhart and Anaconda. (3.5GHz CPU)


    (5)
    Digital Foundry: PS5 and Xbox Series X GPU specs leak: how powerful is next-gen?
    Article
    Video

    A leak was discovered and discussed throughout OT8, Richard from Digital Foundry also made a video and an article about the leak.
    A code repository had been used to store information relating to AMD technology, and Richard has verifed that the information found in the leak has come from AMD.

    The leaks include testing of next-gen desktop and mobile Ryzen APUs along with some deep-dive testing on the PS5 chip, now codenamed Oberon. While the data is not public, it's clear that the GitHub test data has travelled far and wide: further details from the leak mentioned in this article are being discussed at length on ResetEra, for example. The genie is out of the bottle.

    My understanding is that this data was first stored on GitHub around six to seven months ago - and looking back over noted leakers' timelines on Twitter, the source seems to have been picked up on as early as August. While this may suggest that the testing data doesn't reflect current next-gen console specs, it's important to remember that developing a microprocessor of the complexity we're talking about here tends to be a multi-year effort. Testing and validating a chip to ensure that it meets performance targets and that it passes debugging is in itself a lengthy process - and making changes to the architecture of the chip at this point is unlikely. Tweaks to clock speeds or accompanying memory are a possibility but the timeline we have suggests that Sony already took the decision to push GPU clock speeds higher by the time the leaked testing took place.
    Unconfirmed PlayStation 5 specifications (Oberon)



    We are uncertain whether these specifications are final, take them with a grain of salt.

    A hint towards this being related to the PlayStation 5 is that there have been tests of some kind of compatibility modes, where this machine is able to run at 800MHz in Gen1, 911MHz in Gen2 and 2000MHz in Gen3. Gen1 and 2 are a match for the clock speeds the PlayStation 4 and PlayStation 4 Pro's GPU runs at.


    Tweet

    There is also some information that potentially relates to Xbox Series X.

    In reaction to the leak, there has been an argument suggesting that the PS5 specs are invalid because there is no mention of hardware accelerated ray tracing, whereas Arden has it confirmed (along with VRS - variable rate shading). However, the documentation for both processors is very different and can't be directly compared. A lot of AMD's validation testing for the PS5 'Oberon' processor is in the leak, whereas the Series X data is best described as somewhat patchy by comparison. If the PS5 specs are to be taken with a pinch of salt, have an armful of the stuff ready when looking at the table directly above with mooted Series X specs.

    With caveats in place, the sparse data in the leak includes mention of 3584 shaders, which would translate to a frankly ginormous processor with 56 active compute units. There is no sign of clock-speeds in the data, but if we assume that 12 teraflops is the target, 1680MHz gives you 12TF on the nose, with a round 1700MHz delivering 12.2TF. If Microsoft was aiming lower than 12TF, the shader count would be much lower and the silicon itself significantly cheaper to produce - in fact, it would likely look closer to the PS5 configuration. The AMD leak does seem to confirm memory bandwidth for the Arden chip at 560GB/s. It's a curious figure, especially if we return to the Project Scarlett reveal teaser at E3 which seemed to show both 1GB and 2GB GDDR6 in play. Maybe we're looking at a hybrid memory interface with some modules using a 256-bit interface with others at 64-bit. This is something of a mystery that will hopefully be resolved when the official spec is shared by Microsoft.
    (6)
    Digital Foundry: Radeon RDNA vs GCN: how much faster is AMD's next-gen architecture
    Article
    Video

    Richard explores the performance differences between GCN and RDNA, he uses an RX 5700 RDNA GPU which he underclocks and tests in a variety of games with an R9 280x, RX 570 and RX 580. RDNA has gains of around 20-35% over Polaris (GCN 4.0)

    There's a lot of data to wade through and results vary drastically. The best-case scenario I found of generous scaling across the generations comes from Ghost Recon Wildlands. The very high preset there is a challenging workout with an emphasis on GPU compute and the end result sees a 25 per cent increase in performance at 1080p between GCN 1.0 Tahiti to GCN 4.0 Polaris at 4.1TF, with a further leap of 27 per cent between Polaris and Navi at 4.6TF. What we're seeing here is 60 per cent improved performance overall from the same level of compute power. Crysis 3 also saw good scaling - a 23 per cent increase at 1080p between Tahiti and Polaris at 4.1TF, and a further 22 per cent between Polaris and Navi at 4.6TF. Compounding the architectural steps, a GCN 1.0 teraflop goes 50 per cent further with Navi at 1080p.

    Results elsewhere were less impressive under DX11, but even in our worst case scenario (a mere 30 per cent of additional performance) we proved that a GCN 1.0 teraflop is considerably less potent than an RDNA 1.0 equivalent - and there's also evidence here that AMD's architecture has evolved considerably over time in other directions - with geometry processing in particular delivering vastly improved results.

    Perhaps the biggest disappointment from the data was the lack of meaningful data under DX12, which means that our testing on some of the most modern gaming engines failed to deliver any decent results from GCN 1.0 - perhaps not surprising when you consider that GCN's origins predate all of the lower-level APIs used today - and even their predecessor, Mantle. However, clock for clock, Navi's performance boosts up against Polaris still look good - and with a circa 20 to 35 per cent uplift depending on the game, there is consistency here with Navi vs Polaris DX11 results.
    (7)
    Digital Foundry: Zen 2 and NAVI PC Build
    Digital Foundry (Article): We built a 'next-gen' Zen 2/Navi-based PC - how much faster is it than current-gen consoles?
    Digital Foundry (Video): We built a 'next-gen' Zen 2/Navi-based PC - how much faster is it than current-gen consoles?

    Richard tests a PC that has been built with Zen 2 and NAVI hardware, this serves as a concept of theoretical Next Generation console performance.
    Bare in mind that consoles are designed with strict power, thermal and size constraints, as a result of this they could be unlikely to have the luxury of being able to power hardware that significantly exceeds a 300W envelope.

    There's much we don't know about PS5 and Project Scarlett: special GPU features, shader counts, ray-tracing implementation etc. But we do know that the machine is based on Zen 2 CPU and Navi GPU architecture... and with Ryzen 7 3700X, Radeon RX 5700 and RX 5700 XT we can deliver a generational comparison... with some fascinating results. Many thanks to Asus ROG for building this PC for us, and to IO Interactive for sharing the PC equivalent settings for Hitman 2 on every console!
    Next Gen Console PC Concept Build
    • CPU - Ryzen 7 3700X at 3.2GHz (Underclocked)
    • CPU Cooler - Wraith Prism
    • Motherboard - Asus ROG Strix B450F
    • Memory: 2x 8GB DDR4 3600MHz
    • GPU (Config 1) - RX 5700 XT
    • GPU (Config 2) - RX 5700
    • Storage - 1TB NVME SSD
    • Power Supply - Asus ROG 650W
    • Optical Drive: Pioneer 4K UHD Blu-ray
    • Case - Coolermaster N300
    Richard conducts a test using Cinebench R15, and includes projected performance of the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One X's Jaguar CPUs in his testing results.



    Cinebench R15

    Athlon 5370 at 1.6GHz (Jaguar CPU Core x 4)
    • 1T (Single thread) - 35
    • MT (Multi thread) - 128
    • 8 core (Projected PS4 equivalent, 100% scaling assumption) - 256
    Athlon 5370 at 2.3GHz (Jaguar CPU Core x 4)
    • 1T (Single thread) - 49
    • MT (Multi thread) - 183
    • 8 core (Projected Xbox One X equivalent, 100% scaling assumption) - 366
    Ryzen 7 3700X at 2.3GHz
    • 1T (Single thread) - 110 (2.24X faster than 1.6GHz Jaguar)
    • MT (Multi thread) - 618 (3.37x faster than 1.6GHz Jaguar)
    • Octo-Core Score - 1220 (4.76x faster than 1.6GHz Jaguar)
    In the event that a next generation console features a CPU at 2.3GHz:
    Single-threaded performance gains are around 2.24x higher than 2.3GHz Jaguar, and 3.14x faster than 1.6GHz Jaguar.
    Multi-thread performance of 8 cores is around 3.3x faster than 2.3GHz Jaguar, and 4.76x faster than 1.6GHz Jaguar.

    Ryzen 7 3700X at 3.2GHz
    • 1T (Single thread) - 152 (3.1x faster than 2.3GHz Jaguar)
    • MT (Multi thread) - 868 (4.74x faster than 2.3GHz Jaguar)
    • Octo-Core Score - 1702 (4.65x faster than 2.3GHz Jaguar)
    In the event that a next generation console features a CPU at 3.2GHz:
    Single-threaded performance gains are around 3.1x faster than 2.3GHz Jaguar, and 4.34x faster than 1.6GHz Jaguar.
    Multi-threaded performance of 8 cores is around 4.65x faster than 2.3GHz Jaguar, and 6.64x faster than Jaguar at 1.6GHz.

    Currently, we only know that the PlayStation 5 is going to have a Zen 2 CPU with 8 cores and 16 threads, the clock speed of this CPU is unknown at this point in time.

    Gaming Performance
    This was performed by using console equivalent settings, Alex contributed in finding the console equivalent settings for Hitman 2, and DF also reached out to IO Interactive (the developers of the game) who provided them with the settings that are equivalent to the console versions.
    • PlayStation 4 PRO - 36 Compute Units at 911MHz (4.2 TF)
    • Xbox One X - 40 Compute Units at 1172 MHz (6 Teraflops)
    • 5700 - NAVI GPU featuring 36 Compute Units at 1800MHz (8.29 TF)
    • 5700 XT - NAVI GPU featuring 40 Compute Units at 1800MHz (9.2 Teraflops)
    Hitman 2
    • 5700 vs PS4 Pro - The 5700 is 126% faster at 1440p (around 2.26x faster)
    • 5700 XT vs Xbox One X - The 5700 XT is 83% faster at 4K (1.83x faster)
    Xbox One X vs RX 5700 XT PC Configuration



    PlayStation 4 Pro vs RX 5700 PC Configuration



    Wolfenstein 2: The New Colossus
    • 5700 vs PS4 Pro - The 5700 is around 3x faster at 1440p
    • 5700 XT vs Xbox One X - The 5700 XT is around 2x faster at 4K
    PC configurations vs PlayStation 4 Pro and Xbox One X



    PlayStation 4 vs RX 5700 Configuration




    Xbox One X vs RX 5700 XT PC Configuration




    (8)
    Power and thermal constraints
    I must stress that Digital Foundry have tested a machine with PC components, and consoles are designed around strict power, thermal and size limitations, so it would be unrealistic to expect console hardware to have clock speeds matching their PC derivatives.

    I think it is likely that that the CPUs will be clocked within the 2.3-3.2GHz range.
    Higher clock speeds often require more power and more capable cooling solutions, this can be more expensive or may require a larger surface area.
    Thermodynamics isn't my forte but an example of this would be the use of copper heat sinks over aluminum ones, as copper is a better conductor of heat, but can be more expensive to implement.

    Power consumption is something that has been explored in recent in Digital Foundry's CPU reviews, such as the Ryzen 5 3600X review.



    Here's an example of peak system power consumption from Digital Foundry's RX 480 review:
    Crysis 3 was used to test the power consumption of a system outfitted with a i7-6700K and one of 4 GPUs, these were the RX 480, the R9 390, the GTX 970 and the GTX 1070.
    The RX 480 system had a peak power consumption of 271 watts, whilst the GTX 1070 system had a peak of 263 watts.
    The GTX 1070 is a more powerful GPU, however it is more efficient than the RX 480.



    EuroGamer - AMD Radeon RX 480 review

    In the more recent NVIDIA Geforce GTX 1660 TI review, Digital Foundry observed that a system equipped with a 1660 Ti and an overclocked i7-8700K had a peak power draw within the 220-230W range.

    On the topic of power consumption, I mentioned earlier that consoles maybe unlikely to have the luxury of being able to power hardware that significantly exceeds a 300W envelope. I'll use the PlayStation 4 Pro and Xbox One X as an example of this.

    Gamers Nexus and iFixit did teardowns of the Xbox One X and found that it had a 245W PSU.
    Gamers Nexus - Xbox One X Tear-Down
    iFixit - Feast Your Eyes on the Xbox One X Teardown

    Xbox One X's Power Supply


    (Image from iFixit teardown)
    Output:
    20.42 Amps x 12 Volts = 245 Watts

    iFixit also did a teardown of the PlayStation 4 Pro and found that it had a 289W PSU

    PlayStation 4 Pro's Power Supply


    (Image from iFixit teardown)
    Output:
    23.5 Amps x 12 Volts = 282 Watts
    1.5 Amps x 4.8V = 7.2 Watts
    282 + 7.2 = 289.2
    Total = 289.2 Watts

    However, even with these PSUs that are rated to output upwards of 245 Watts, Digital Foundry has observed power consumption for the PlayStation 4 Pro and the Xbox One X in the sub 200W range. I think it's possible that there may be some variance to these numbers depending on the game and the load it puts on the hardware.

    PlayStation 4 Power Consumption Comparison



    EuroGamer - Sony PlayStation 4 Pro review

    Xbox One Power Consumption Comparison



    EuroGamer - Microsoft Xbox One X review

    Looking at the past generation consoles, some PlayStation 3 models had PSUs that were capable of outputting power over 350 watts, but didn't necessarily consume that much power when in use. This was reduced over time with newer revisions of the console, like the PlayStation 3 Slim with it's 216W PSU, and the Super Slim with it's 156W PSU.

    I suppose a console with a 300-400W PSU could be the most we could see, but having more power hungry components means that there is a higher heat output, this will require a capable cooling system which may be more expensive to implement, and/or consume a larger surface area.

    iFixit have teardowns of the PlayStation 3 Slim, and Super Slim on their website.

    iFixit PlayStation 3 Slim Teardown
    18 Amps x 12 Volts = 216 Watts

    iFixit PlayStation 3 Super Slim Teardown
    13 Amps x 12 Volts = 156 Watts

    (9)
    Impressions on Xbox Series X's design

    The Xbox Series X's design is interesting, previous Xbox consoles have taken a wide design approach, while this one is tall.
    They've most likely designed it like this to accommodate a potent cooling solution.



    Here's a rough size comparison (Assuming the Xbox Series X is 304mm x 152mm x 152mm):



    This design reminds me of Silverstone's FT03 cases (MATX and MITX), Corsair's One series of machines, and even Apple's 2013 Mac Pro.

    Silverstone - FT03 Mini



    Silverstone
    Dimensions:
    Height - 397mm
    Width - 188.9mm
    Depth - 235.1mm
    Litres - 17.63

    Corsair One i160 Compact Gaming PC



    Corsair
    Dimensions:
    Height - 380mm
    Width - 176mm
    Depth - 200mm
    Litres - 13.37

    Apple Mac Pro (2013)



    iFixit Mac Pro Late 2013 Teardown
    Dimensions:
    Height - 251mm
    Diameter - 167mm

    The FT03 and Corsair One's case are notably larger than what the Xbox Series X appears to be, rough estimations put it around 7 Liters.
    The size and the alleged power it could be packing such as a 3.5GHz CPU and a 12TF GPU would be a pretty impressive accomplishment to say the least, however these numbers are yet to be officially confirmed by Microsoft.

    I'm very curious to see what the internals look like, I want to know what kind of cooling solution it uses, and what hardware it is equipped with! Could this have a 200-400W PSU?

    The console likely features an APU, which is essentially a CPU and GPU on one chip, PC components such as a Ryzen 3700X and RX 5700 XT have separate cooling solutions as these components reside on separate PCBs, meanwhile consoles components share a single PCB, this is useful to save space.
    Single heatsinks are used to cool the APU in the Xbox One consoles.

    PCs can also be tightly packed together in cases such as the NCASE M1 which is a 11.4 litre case.



    The Louqe S1 is a 8.47 litre case, it has extensions that you can add on-top to make it taller, this provides more space to install things such as radiators and/or fans.
    This case can fit dual slot GPUs up-to 305mm long as well as a 240mm water cooler if you add a "Top Hat".
    Larger cases are useful to accommodate more hardware that may be larger, as well as more comprehensive cooling solutions, such as larger heatsinks for the CPU and GPU, or even water cooling solutions such as AIOs.



    Xbox One X Circuit Board



    iFixit (Video) - Xbox One X Disassembly and Repairabilty

    The Xbox One X features an APU, this contains both the CPU and GPU.
    Here we can see 12 memory chips around the APU, this is shared between the CPU and GPU.

    PCs typically have CPUs and GPUs which have access to their own pools of memory, CPUs acquire their memory from the RAM slots on the motherboard, meanwhile the GPU will have its own pool of memory on its circuit board.
    APUs use typically use system memory for the CPU and GPU.

    Kaby Lake G was an interesting chip that was developed featuring Intel's Kaby Lake CPU and AMD's Vega GPU, it released in 2018.
    The GPU has access to 4GB of HBM2 memory.

    Digital Foundry: Intel's Core i7 with Radeon RX Vega graphics: full specs revealed
    Digital Foundry: Intel Hades Canyon NUC NUC8i7HVK: The Digital Foundry Verdict

    A Kaby Lake G processor.




    RX 5700 XT Circuit Board



    Here we can see 8 memory chips around the GPU die on the GPU's circuit board, this is memory dedicated to the GPU.
    TechPowerUp - AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT Review

    Ryzen 7 3700X CPU



    This drops into the CPU socket on a compatible motherboard.
    TechPowerUp - Ryzen 7 3700X Review



    Bit-Tech - MSI B450M Mortar Review

    This is a MicroATX motherboard for AM4 processors such as the Ryzen 7 3700X, AM4 is the name of the CPU socket, and MicroATX is name of the motherboard's form factor, this basically tells you about the size of the motherboard. You need a case that can fit MicroATX boards, if the board is too big for the case it wont fit.

    On the top right of this image you will see 4 vertical black slots, this is where RAM is installed for the CPU to use.

    Corsair Vengenace LPX 16 GB (2x8GB)



    These are DDR4 ram DIMMs (ram sticks), the CPU uses this memory.

    Corsair One Teardown - TechPowerUp: Corsair ONE i160 Compact Gaming PC Review

    This Corsair One PC has a lot of hardware packed inside of it!
    I've included it to show an example of a compact PC that has a similar design to the Xbox Series X, it is not a hardware power comparison.

    This PC has an i9-9900K with 32 GB of DDR4 2666MHz memory (2x16GB), a RTX 2080 Ti which has 11 GB of its own dedicated memory, and a water cooling radiator for both the CPU and GPU on each side of the case.
    These are very powerful components and they require a good cooling solution to ensure that they don't overheat which could lead to system shutdowns or thermal throttling, this is when a component will reduce its clock speed in an attempt to reduce the heat, this sacrifices performance in the process.

    This case features a top fan which is used to exhaust heat out the top, it also has cooling fans which target components such as the GPU's heatsink and the PSU.

    This machine has a Corsair SF600 80 Plus Gold PSU, this is a 600 watt power supply.
    The reviewer observed power consumption peaks at around 440 W with this computer under heavy computational loads.




    Here we can see a lot of components have been packed into one place, I think this case is very impressive!
    The cooling appears to be doing a decent job at keeping the components cool too, as the reviewer observed GPU temperature peaks of around 74°C and CPU temperature peaks of around 85°C

    This PC has separate circuit boards for the GPU and the RAM, this consumes more space, however its design is useful for future expansion as PCs can be upgraded, meanwhile consoles have static components, outside of storage expansion.

    If this PC was equipped with a powerful APU, and not just the i9-9900K's IGPU, it could possibly be built with a single radiator, or perhaps a large heat sink.
    This could reduce the size of the case, as the CPU and GPU would now accommodate the same space, and the loss of a dedicated PCB and cooling solution for the GPU would save space.

    The RTX 2080 Ti removed from the Corsair i160



    Here we can see the RTX 2080 Ti equipped with a fan and its own AIO water cooler, this important to cool the GPU.

    Digital Trends have a nice picture of this on a desk, I think the Corsair One's chassis is lovely!


    Digital Trends - Corsair One Pro i180 review

    TechRadar have a nice picture too!


    Tech Radar - Corsair One i160 review

    I think it looks neat and compact, especially for the hardware the Corsair One features.
    Xbox Series X is seemingly close to half this volume, and is numerous times more powerful than the current generation machines. The design of the Xbox Series X suggests that the Xbox team have focused on pushing performance as far as they can in a console, to the point that they've taken a different approach to their console designs with Series X.
    It's potentially been designed like this to accommodate hardware that outputs more heat than previous consoles.

    I'm curious to find out more about the Xbox Series X's internals, such as what hardware it has and what kind of cooling solution it uses.
    Cooling the hardware its been rumoured to feature in such a small case would be really impressive!

    Xbox One Teardown - iFixit



    Image from iFixit Xbox One Teardown

    Xbox One S Teardown



    Image from iFixit Xbox One S Teardown

    (10)
    RX 5700 Series Performance

    These GPUs are based on AMD RDNA's architecture, they may be a solid basis of what to expect from Next Generation Consoles, it is important to note that they lack the hardware-accelerated ray tracing capabilities that the PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X have been confirmed to have.

    Specifications

    5700 XT - 40 Compute Units (2560 Cores)
    • Core/Base Clock: 1605 MHz = 8.21 TF
    • Game Clock: 1755 MHz = 8.98 TF
    • Boost Clock: 1905 MHz = 9.75 TF
    5700 - 36 Compute Units (2304 Cores)
    • Core/Base Clock: 1425 MHz = 6.56 TF
    • Game Clock: 1625 MHz = 7.48 TF
    • Boost Clock: 1725 MHz = 7.94 TF
    From the reviews I have seen, it seems that these GPUs are more likely to hold their game clocks than their boost clocks.

    TechPowerUp
    5700 XT Review
    5700 XT Performance Summary
    AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT Review - Clock Speeds and Power Limit
    AMD Radeon RX 5700 Review - Clock Speeds and Power Limit

    Anandtech
    RX 5700 XT and 5700
    5700 XT and 5700 Review - Power, Noise and Temperatures

    Due to power and thermal constraints, console GPUs may prioritize higher core counts over higher clock speeds.

    RX 5700 Series GPU Specifications:

    Official Clock Speeds
    • 5700 XT - 40 Compute Units at 1755Hz (Game Clock - 8.98 Teraflops)
    • 5700 - 36 Compute Units at 1625MHz (Game Clock - 7.48 TF)
    Digital Foundry's clock speeds
    • 5700 XT - 40 Compute Units at 1800MHz (9.2 Teraflops)
    • 5700 - 36 Compute Units at 1800MHz (8.29 TF)
    Examples of this core count prioritization for a GPU would be these:

    3072 cores (48 Compute Units)
    • 48 Compute Units at 1218MHz = 7.48 Teraflops (3072 x 1218 x 2)
    • 48 Compute Units at 1252MHz = 7.69 Teraflops (3072 x 1252 x 2)
    • 48 Compute Units at 1350MHz = 8.29 Teraflops (3072 x 1350 x 2)
    • 48 Compute Units at 1462MHz = 8.98 Teraflops (3072 x 1462 x 2
    • 48 Compute Units at 1514MHz = 9.3 Teraflops (3072 x 1514 x 2)
    2816 cores (44 Compute Units)
    • 44 Compute Units at 1329MHz = 7.48 Teraflops (2816 x 1329 x 2)
    • 44 Compute Units at 1366MHz = 7.69 Teraflops (2816 x 1366 x 2)
    • 44 Compute Units at 1472MHz = 8.29 Teraflops (2816 x 1472 x 2)
    • 44 Compute Units at 1595MHz = 8.98 Teraflops (2816 x 1595 x 2)
    • 44 Compute Units at 1652MHz = 9.3 Teraflops (2816 x 1652 x 2)
    2688 cores (42 Compute Units)
    • 42 Compute Units at 1392MHz = 7.48 Teraflops (2688 x 1392 x 2)
    • 42 Compute Units at 1431MHz = 7.69 Teraflops (2688 x 1431 x 2)
    • 42 Compute Units at 1543MHz = 8.29 Teraflops (2688 x 1543 x 2)
    • 42 Compute Units at 1670MHz = 8.98 Teraflops (2688 x 1670 x 2)
    • 42 Compute Units at 1730MHz = 9.3 Teraflops (2688 x 1730 x 2)
    As you can see, the theoretical teraflops are dependent on the clock speed and core count of the GPU.
    In these examples, compared to the desktop NAVI parts I have reduced the clock speeds of these hypothetical GPUs and increased their number of compute units, I did this to obtain a target number of teraflops similar to those that are found in the desktop NAVI parts.

    Here are examples of how the RX 5700 series GPUs perform compared to other GPUs:

    EuroGamer - The GPU power ladder: all current graphics cards ranked



    (11)
    What can we expect to see from Next Generation Games?

    Next Generation consoles are going to have substantially more powerful hardware, and will no longer be shackled to the limitations of the base machines, much the like PlayStation 4 Pro and Xbox One X were.
    With significantly more powerful CPUs we can expect to see things such as more advanced simulations taking place in game worlds, these could be in the form of more advanced physics such more advanced cloth, fluid and destruction simulations. As well as advanced physics based animations.
    Longer draw distances are another thing that we are likely to see, as well as NPCs with more advanced AI behaviour which offer more emergent gameplay scenarios.

    A technique used to free CPU cycles is to reduce the update rate of animations of characters in the distance, games like Halo 5 and Resident Evil 2 do this.
    Theoretically, with more powerful CPUs there would be more headroom to run animations at higher update rates so hopefully we will see less of this, but this depends on the developers as they may still use this technique to free CPU cycles.

    (12)
    Real-time Ray Tracing

    The PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X have been confirmed to feature ray tracing hardware, NVIDIA's Turing lineup of GPUs feature hardware ray tracing capabilites, with this they can deliver impressive graphical effects that were once not possible in real time.
    It is currently unknown how AMD's implementation of hardware ray tracing capabilities will compare to NVIDIA's.

    Control and Metro Exodus feature some of the best implementations of real time ray tracing in the games of today, ray tracing can be used to display more accurate reflections on objects in the environment such as mirrors and other reflective materials. In Control, you can see the reflections of your character and surroundings on objects such as windows with the use of ray traced reflections.

    Metro Exodus features real-time ray traced global ilumination, this is used to deliver more realistic lighting.

    It would be great to see real time ray-tracing used in next generation console games, but I'm curious to see how AMD's upcoming hardware will perform.
    Real-time ray tracing can be very computationally expensive to use on Turing GPUs depending on the implementation, and AMD's RDNA 2 GPUs are going to be their first attempt at implementing real-time ray tracing capabilities on their GPUs. Meanwhile, NVIDIA are preparing their next generation 7nm RTX GPUs for launch in 2020, which are likely to focus on improved ray tracing performance.
    I'm curious to see how AMD will achieve it, and what the performance will be like on their GPUs.

    Control

    NVIDIA: Control Graphics and Performance Guide (Features Interactive visual comparisons)

    Interactive visual comparisons
    Ray-Traced Reflections
    Ray-Traced Transparent Reflections
    Ray-Traced Contact Shadows
    Ray-Traced Indirect Diffuse Lighting
    Ray-Traced Debris

    Much of our world is to some degree reflective. Look around you right now - aged hardwood floors reflect light and show coarse object reflections; rough white walls reflect light; and pretty much anything that isn’t matte black to some extent reflects light and/or detail. But without this subtle reflectivity, which we observe every waking minute of every day, immersion and realism in games is greatly reduced.

    With ray tracing we can fix this, because unlike screen space techniques that can only reflect what’s on screen, ray-traced reflections incorporate the entire scene around the character and camera, and can accurately represent objects outside and facing away from the camera's view. This enables 360 degrees of reflectivity, as well the reflection of off-screen and occluded detail. And because rays reach most game elements, virtually everything can receive reflections or be reflected onto other objects and surfaces, creating lifelike scenes that were previously impossible to render.
    Control has a variety of ray-traced effects that improve the graphical fidelity of the game.

    Ray-Traced Indirect Diffuse Lighting

    Control is illuminated with a mixture of lighting techniques, including precomputed global illumination. To add some extra pizzazz to proceedings, players can enable Ray-Traced Indirect Diffuse Lighting, which in simpler terms means that rays are traced, and if a ray strikes a bright light or surface, surrounding game elements will be naturally illuminated.

    In addition, if the ray’s point of contact happens to be colored, that color will naturally spread to surrounding detail.
    Control’s shadows are formed with rasterized Shadow Maps, which serve its angular, functional offices rather well. When it comes to fine detail, however, they struggle – small and thin geometry is shown at low resolutions or omitted altogether, and objects far from the shadow caster may be barely perceptible.

    If you’ve played plenty of games, you’ll know these are common issues caused by shadow mapping’s limitations, and by the necessity for developers to manually balance visibility and quality of shadows against the associated performance and video memory costs.

    By enabling Ray-Traced Contact Shadows, we can give the shadow maps a helping hand, tracing rays to light sources to create accurate real-time shadows that improve what’s already there, and to render the detail they couldn’t.
    With ray traced reflections, impressive scenes like these are now possible in real time:

    Environment Example 1

    Ray Traced Effects (1/Left is Off, 2/Right is On)


    Environment Example 2

    Ray Traced Effects (1/Left is Off, 2/Right is On)


    The fire extinguisher and surroundings are reflected.

    Environment Example 3

    Ray-Traced Reflections Off vs On (1/Left is Off, 2/Right is On)


    Both sides of the room are reflected.

    All Ray Traced Effects On


    Transparent Reflections




    The staircase and main character are reflected.

    All Ray Traced Effects On



    The foliage is more accurately reflected on the ground.

    Adding ray-traced reflections to glass is no different than ray tracing a puddle, if the background is opaque. When it’s transparent, with detail visible on the other side, extra work is required.

    The newly-created Ray-Traced Transparent Reflections solves the problem, tracing rays from transparent surfaces to surrounding detail, enabling realistic mirror-like reflectivity without blocking the visibility of detail beyond the transparent surface.

    In the comparison below, we see Control’s generalized cubemap reflections replaced with real-time transparent reflections capable of showing characters, NPCs and other dynamic game elements moving across the scene. And as an added extra, we've enabled fractured glass to naturally display these transparent reflections.
    Performance Impacts




    Some gameplay scenarios that could take place with the use of ray traced reflections:

    A first person horror game.
    Ray tracing could be used to create tension and suspense for the player, for example:
    1. You walk into a bathroom and look into a mirror on the wall, something behind you moves...
    2. You hide inside of a locker and peep through the gaps. You see a large mirror in front of you and use it to observe your surroundings and determine whether the coast is clear.


    Rock Paper Shotgun: How Do Alien Isolation's Lockers Work?

    First person shooter.
    Mirror placement in a building may give away enemy positions, you can spot people approach and prepare yourself for combat.

    Watch Dogs Legion

    Watch Dogs Legion implements ray traced reflections, this enables cars, puddles and windows to accurately reflect their surroundings.



    Watch Dogs: Legion | Official RTX Ray Tracing Trailer

    (13)
    Star Citizen - An example of a game that benefits from hardware that trascends current generation consoles
    Alex from Digital Foundry recently created a video about Star Citizen:
    Star Citizen: A Next-Gen Experience In The Making... And You Can Play-Test It Now

    This is a controversial game, but that's not the focus of this video.
    I would argue that Star Citizen is undoubtedly the most ambitious and advanced game knowingly in development, it has impressive visuals but what I would argue is most impressive about it would be the gameplay and the technological feats it has accomplished.

    This game is very expensive to make, and has acquired over 200 million USD in funding, however I would argue that this game can be representative of what can be accomplished when targeting hardware that transcends current generation consoles, and when a development team have the funds to push the boundaries.
    This game, even in its current unfinished state is simply in a league of its own on a technological level.

    Alex expresses in the video that he's excited about the concept of next generation consoles having Zen 2 CPUs with 8 cores and 16 threads as well as SSDs because of the possibilities that the new minimum specifications of consoles will enable, Star Citizen is currently the shining example of this.

    Star Citizen has features such as:
    • 64-bit coordinate system
    • Space and planetary combat
    • Highly detailed environments
    • Meticulously detailed ships
    • Comprehensive simulation of ships and their components, each component consumes power and outputs heat, it is important to manage your ship's power distribution and heat output. Ships have components such as thrusters, power plants, coolers and shield generators.
    • Bounty hunting
    • Mining
    • Synchronized first and third person animations
    The game is achieving this stuff while striving to be an MMO! The list just goes on!

    There are colossal ships which you can enter and move seamlessly around, featuring stunningly detailed rooms and a variety of interactive elements, these can be things such as turrets and terminals.

    Every ship has their their own frame of reference, simply put:
    You can be on a ship that's traveling 100s of miles per hour and walk around it smoothly, while interacting with other players or even engaging in on-foot combat!
    This can be happening all while the ship is rotating, or a space battle takes place around you. There are so many different scenarios that can take place!

    Alex talks about the concept of travel in Star Citizen at 5:48 on wards, and frames of references at 7:05 but I recommend watching the entire video!

    To get an idea of the scale of things in Star Citizen, here's a ship size comparison:



    (Click to enlarge)

    Currently, you land something something like a Reclaimer (bottom left) on a planet, this is a huge salvage ship that features many rooms and even elevators!

    Star Citizen - The Reclaimer over the Hurston Savannah (Video)

    Here's some screenshots of the 890 Jump! (ship at the top left of the fourth column)







    Star Citizen is also an example of a game that has been designed for and greatly benefits from SSDs. As a result of this it suffers from long loading times and performance issues on Hard Disk Drives.

    Alex showcases the loading times on an NVME SSD and a 7200 RPM RAID 0 HDD configuration, in his video it took almost 11x more time to load into the game with the Hard Drives. The game is also constantly streaming in data for the highly detailed world.
    (With RAID 0 reads and writes occur concurrently on multiple drives, this increases throughput)

    Star Citizen loading times (Universe mode)
    RAID 0 HDD - 3:24.47 seconds
    XPG SX8200 PRO NVME SSD - 19:32 seconds.

    Having seen what Star Citizen is doing makes me incredibly excitedly for Next Generation games, there is so much potential!



    Here is something weird we came across! :O

    (14)
    Current affairs regarding Zen 2's performance and Intel's offerings.

    Intel's current architecture which has seen widespread use across mobile and desktops is Coffee-Lake, Intel have introduced other architectures to market which are refinements of Coffee-Lake, however these are chips which are focused on the mobile segment and to my knowledge do not reach the performance standards of Coffee-Lake to replace it in the desktop segment.

    With Zen 2, it seems that AMD has rectified many of the performance bottlenecks from the first generation Zen CPUs. As a result of this, AMD has pretty much caught up to Intel in the majority of workloads, and are even offering CPUs that deliver competitive performance in their price range, some of which undercut Intel's own chips. However, Intel still maintain a clock speed advantage for their CPUs, this leads to higher performance in gaming workloads in the currently available software.

    I found TechReport's review of the 3700X and 3900X to be very telling of this, it's a very comprehensive review and they did a fantastic job reviewing these CPUs, check it out here:
    Tech Report - AMD’s Ryzen 7 3700X and Ryzen 9 3900X CPUs reviewed

    From this review I wanted to bring this section to attention, check out GTA V's performance on the Ryzen 3700X and 2700X here:




    That's a 24.7% gain in average fps and significantly lower frame times, this is great to see as this game has been something the Zen architecture has struggled with since it's inception, and Zen 2 seems to have closed the gap significantly between it and Intel's offerings.
    However, regardless of this improvement in GTA V, Intel still have a sizable lead in gaming performance in other games such as Deus Ex: Mankind Divided and Hitman 2 as featured in this review.




    Here we see Intel's 9900K leading by 26.6% against the 3700X, and 34.5% against the 3900X.
    Where the third-generation Ryzens traded blows with their Intel competitors in Crysis, Deus Ex is a different story altogether. Both of the new CPUs take a back seat to all three of our Intel CPUs in this title. I’m not qualified to pass judgment on why, but if you forced me to guess I might suspect that it has something to do with memory latency.
    Anandtech

    Anandtech conducted a test with the SPEC2006 and SPEC2017 benchmark suite in their Ryzen 3700X and 3900X review, these are industry standard benchmarks.

    The Ryzen 9 3900X (Zen 2) is compared against AMD's own Ryzen 7 2700X (Zen+) and Intel's i9-9900K (Coffee-Lake)
    AMD Ryzen 9 3900x.
    The 3900X and i9-9900K used DDR4 3200MHz CL16 memory, whilst the Ryzen 7 2700X used DDR4 2933MHz memory with "similar" CL16 timings.

    Anandtech: The AMD 3rd Gen Ryzen Deep Dive Review: 3700X and 3900X Raising The Bar

    One big talking point around the new Ryzen 3000 series is the new augmented single-threaded performance of the new Zen 2 core. In order to investigate the topic in a more controlled manner with better documented workloads, we’ve fallen back to the industry standard SPEC benchmark suite.

    We’ll be investigating the previous generation SPEC CPU2006 test suite giving us some better context to past platforms, as well as introducing the new SPEC CPU2017 suite. We have to note that SPEC2006 has been deprecated in favour of 2017, and we must also mention that the scores posted today are noted as estimates as they’re not officially submitted to the SPEC organisation.
    This testing suite features a variety of different tests, these bring to light to the different improvements that have been brought to Zen 2.
    From these tests, the reviewers were able to deduce the impacts of things such as Zen 2's improved branch prediction capabilities from things such as the "445.gobmk" benchmark as well as the cache improvements. They have also shown how it compares to Intel's i9-9900K and their Coffee-Lake architecture and showcase Zen 2's strengths and weaknesses.

    From this testing suite, they concluded that Zen 2 has a higher overall IPC when compared to Intel's Coffee-Lake architecture. IPC is basically the performance of the CPU at a given clock speed, a simplified example of this would be:

    CPU A at 4GHz scores - 100
    CPU B at 4GHz scores - 130

    This shows that CPU B has a 30% higher IPC



    Normalising the scores for frequency, we see that AMD has achieved something that the company hasn’t been able to claim in over 15 years: It has beat Intel in terms of overall IPC. Overall here, the IPC improvements over Zen+ are 15%, which is a bit lower than the 17% figure for SPEC2006.
    This is just a short overview of their findings in the SPEC benchmarks, there is more information available at the source.

    TechSpot

    TechSpot (Hardware Unboxed) conducted a test featuring the Ryzen 7 1700X, Ryzen 7 2700X, the Ryzen 7 3700X and the Ryzen 9 3900X with 8 cores enabled (down from 12) and tested it against Intel 9900K. Their highest performing mainstream socket desktop CPU. All CPUs were tested at 4GHz.
    To my knowledge, the i9-9900K has an all-core turbo of 4.8GHz so this is theoretically leaving perhaps 20% performance on the table, but the main purpose of this test was to showcase performance differences between the CPUs at the same clock speed.

    This is a really interesting test, as it gives us an insight to how AMD's Zen 2 CPUs fair against Intel's own i9-9900K at the same clock speeds.

    Techspot (Hardware Unboxed)
    Article: 4GHz CPU Battle
    Video: 3rd Gen Ryzen IPC Test, 3900X & 3700X vs. Core i9-9900K

    I have included some of TechSpot's tests below, be sure to check out the article or even the video for more!

    In their tests, most of the results show the Ryzen 7 3700X performing within 10% of Intel i9-9900K, losing in the gaming test and performing better than i9-9900K in the application tests. AMD have a highly competitive product on their hands.

    So far, it seems that Intel still has an advantage in gaming performance in the current software that is available.
    I have seen up-to 20-30% performance advantages go to Intel's 9900K when tested against AMD's current best mainstream CPU, the 3900X (some of this could be due to Windows scheduler issues as I've seen smaller performance advantages when disabling SMT on AMD CPUs) this is a 12 core 24 thread CPU with a base clock of 3.8GHz and a boost clock of 4.6GHz, while the 9900K is an 8 core 16 thread CPU, with a base clock of 3.6GHz and a boost clock of 5GHz.

    Intel does have a clock-speed advantage, as well as more headroom to reach higher overclocks.
    The i9-9900K in particular has the ability to boost all 8 of it's cores to 4.8GHz, while the AMD CPUs typically max out at around 4.4GHz. There have been improvements to how AMD CPUs boost due to new BIOs releases, this helps these CPUs to maintain their boost clock speeds.

    4GHz CPU Battle

    Cinebench R20


    Cinebench R20 shows the AMD 3700X leading by 13.4% in multi-core performance, and the 3900X with 8 cores enabled leading by 13.6%



    For single-core performance, the 3900X (4 cores disabled) leads by 9.5% against the i9-9900K, and the 3700X leads by 9%



    Gaming Performance

    In Battlefield V, the I9-9900k leads by 2.5% in average frame rates versus the 3900X (4 cores disabled), and 7.3% versus the 3700X.
    For minimum frame rates, the 9900K leads by 8.7% versus the 3900X and 3700X.
    Comparing the 3700X to the 1700X sees the Zen 2 CPU leading by 15.5% for average frame rates, and 10.7% for minimum frame rates.



    In Far Cry New Dawn, the i9-9900K leads by 5.3% versus the 3900X (4 cores disabled), and 9.2% versus the 3700X in average frame rates.
    For minimum frame rates, the i9-9900K leads by 9.5% versus the 3900X and 3700X.



    In this AIDA64's latency test, we see that the Zen 2 CPUs have higher latency when compared to Intel's i9-9900K.



    In SiSoftware's Multi-Thread Latency test we see that while Zen 2 has higher latency when comparing "Worst Matched Cores" to the i9-9900K, it has lower latency when compared against the Best Matched Cores. However, we also see that the latency between the "Best Matched Cores" is lower than the i9-9900K.

    Zen 2 has made notable improvements with in regard to multi-thread latency, as the first generation Zen CPUs see 53% higher latency when comparing the "Worst Matched Cores" latency to the Ryzen 7 3700X, while the Ryzen 7 2700X sees 35% higher latency when comparing the latency of the "Worst Matched Cores" to the 3700X.
    For "Best Matched Cores" the Ryzen 7 1700X has 43.9% higher latency when compared to the Ryzen 7 3700X, and the 2700X has 42% higher latency when compared to the 3700X as well.



    Some more Ryzen 3000 CPU Reviews:
    Tom's Hardware - AMD Ryzen 9 3900X and Ryzen 7 3700X Review - Tom's Hardware even test the i9-9900K at 5GHz!
    Ryzen 3000 and Zen 2 Review Thread

    Edits and Updates:
    OP is occasionally updated with more information.
     
    Last edited:
    Jeffram - Reasons to question the implications of the leaked documents
  • Jeffram

    Member
    Oct 29, 2017
    1,242
    Let's contemplate the GPU performance jump between current and next gen given the latest developments. If anybody mentions the word CPU I will cut them! ;)

    We'll compare ps360 as an amalgam because their nominal TF difference is only 3% or so. I'm also rounding up and down by up to 3% for more digestible numbers. We'll consider base PS4 this gen's benchmark since it crushed the x1 in sales and disregard ps4pro/1x.

    ps360: ~0.25 tflop

    ps4: 1.8 tflop = 7x jump nominal, ??x real

    ps5 @ 9.2 RDNA = ~12.3 gcn : 5x jump nominal, ~7x real

    sex @ 12 RDNA = ~16 gcn : 6.7x jump nominal , ~9x real


    So series x has kept pace with last gen and ps has lagged behind. The sex is 33% more powerful than the PS5 in raw TFLOPs*, Why?

    Maybe it's because 36 CU is double 18 CUs for the base ps4, and the same number of CUs as the PS4pro and this was chosen because it is very convenient for backward compatibility with ps4.

    Either way, Microsoft's console is basically the high end of what people were hoping for, which is praise-worthy. If it releases at $500, it will be a fantastic bargain that will steal marketshare from Sony, guaranteed. At $600, it is much less compelling so I expect microsoft to stick to $500 and eat the loss.

    Assumptions:

    We know the GH leaks are legit, they have been confirmed multiple times. We know that RDNA has a 33% perf advantage per flop vs last gen. Assuming no major bombshells, we have the PS5 is both 9.2 tf rdna = 12.3 tf gcn. SeX is 12 tf rdna = 16tf gcn.



    * Does anyone know the real (estimated) perf jump from last gen's tflop to current gen's tflop?

    * In practice, PS5's higher clocks scale performance better than CU numbers so actual advantage is likely to be around 25-28%. Still significant. But only around 1/2 of current gen's advantage.
    Since you snuck this in at the end of the last OT, figured i'd respond here. There are some reasons NOT to put weight into the Github leak

    There are 3 reasons to question the implications of the leaked documents:

    1. They are full of mistakes and inaccuracies
    • There are files in wrong folders, there are sub folders and wrong folders. Again, when people say these are legitimate, they mean that this is what is legitimately in the files, not that the files are correct or accurate all the time.
    • The biggest issue is that they claim Spakrman (Lockhart) is 56CUs. Every reason you have to believe Oberon is PS5, you have to believe that Sparkman is Lockhart. Sparkman BC mode indicates it can replicate a One S.
    However confident you are that PS5 is 36 CUs, must must be equally confident that Lockhart is 56CUs. Or the other way around, how ever skeptical you are that these leaks confirm Lockhart is 56CUs, you must be equally skeptical these leaks confirm PS5 is 36CUs.

    2. The leaks if taken at face value, fly in the face of every credible insider we have, including develeper sources and industry sources, that say the Series X and PS5 are very close in power.
    • We've had Jason Schreier News Editor of Kotaku, Andrew Reiner Executive Editor at Game Informer, Our own Mods, and Vetted industry insider and veteran Klee, and other insiders all say the consoles are close in power.
    • They specifically claim PS5 and Scarlett were close in power according to those sources. And All of that is in the same time window these leaks are from, which according to DF is the point where it's too late to make changes. None of them have come out and said the the tables have turned. The Github leaks are new to us, but they are actually older than the leaks we've gotten from insiders.
    So, Actual insiders who actually know about the target specs of the PS5 and Xbox Series X (rather than drawing conclusions from indirect and uncontextualized data points) with a network of sources (instead of an interns notepad) are saying something to the contrary of what the leak indicates at face value.

    3. The documents, if taken at face value, don't pass the sniff test, and an alternative makes more sense

    • The test were done without VRR and RT, when we know that at the very least PS5 has RT. This means that the tests we have access to are not the full PS5 in at least one way.
    • 36CUs at 2GHz, is not a reasonable way to hit 9.2TFs, if that's the target. Every bit of historical and contextual data we have for consoles points to a wide and slow approach to console APUs. Efficiencies, Thermals, Cooling Costs, and reliability have all proven to be reasons that trump a lower sized and faster APU. Why would Sony feel any different? What technology would change the equation? I'm not aware of any, so I don't expect that approach to change.
    • 36CUs would also make this the smallest APU Sony has made in a decade. In a world where Sony is dominating in terms of sales and profitability, where they've come out and aid that PS5 is going to be Niche product aimed at the hardcore who what the best and latest, where that is corroborated by their rumoured bleeding edge SSD tech, a small APU doesn't make sense.
    • Digital Foundry Stated in the article that many BC test are being done. If that's true, this could be a BC test right? Well, what would that look like. Presumably, they would want to test a Native PS4 mode, a PS4 Pro mode, and like the PS4 Pro had.... A PS4 Pro Boost mode. What would the Boost mode test look like?
    • A PS4 Pro Boost mode compatibility test would look like this: Exactly the same CUs as the PS4 Pro, An unlocked "full" clock, no RT or VRS hardware activated. What do we have in the leak? 36CUs (exactly the same as the PS4 Pro), 2Ghz, the rumoured full clock of the PS5, No RT and no VRS indicated.
    The leaks makes little sense as the Full PS5 hardware, indicating you shouldn't take it as a certainty of the PS5s total performance, and a lot of sense that it's a boost mode PS4 Pro compatibility test so that possibility can't be dismissed.
     
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    Buildzoid on NAVI 21
  • anexanhume

    Member
    Oct 25, 2017
    6,701

    Buildzoid rambles about Navi 21 performance possibilities. A good thought exercise for our discussions.

    He talks about process advantages, power consumption of core, VRMs, memory, and memory bandwidth implications for performance. He also talks about the more stringent requirements for GDDR6, which people seem to overlook, particularly when talking about clamshell configurations.
     
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    Kleegamefan - Next Generation Console Information V4
  • OP
    OP
    Mecha Meister

    Mecha Meister

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    Kleegamefan is a member who has industry roots, and has been verified by ZhugeEX and Hect.

    The information they have revealed cannot be verified, but I've decided to make this post to house the information regarding the next generation consoles that Kleegamefan has come across.

    It would be wise to exercise caution regarding the information they have revealed in this thread until things have been confirmed, however Kleegamefan appears to be a person who strongly values their credibility.

    Perhaps try to take the information with an open mind, and please refrain from being hostile towards them. It's okay to question the validity of the information but keep in mind that they can't really prove any of this stuff as it could get themselves and their sources in trouble, which we don't want to do at all.

    Kleegamefan has said some fascinating things that I think people will be interested in reading about, so I have quoted some of their posts below:

    I will update this post with new information from Kleegamefan. (There has been no new information added since OT8, other than the verifications from ZhugeEX and Hect.

    Keep in mind that plans can change during the development of consoles, he is just revealing what he knows at that point in time.

    There may be some double spaces in some of his posts as a result of copying this into a word processor and back onto the forum, sorry.

    The way it was explained to me, and keep in mind this is third hand information, PlayStation 4 BC was always planned but the software engineering needed to get this right took a lot longer than expected.
    My personal INTERPRETATION is that SIE planned for their customers to easily migrate from base PS4 platform to future PS platforms (including PRO).


    This is during the planning stage before PlayStation 4 launch.


    After PS4 launch came the actual development and implementation stage (for BC)and this stage took longer than expected, hence the now late 2020 launch.


    So the magic question I have is: once Sony committed to delay the product, did they exploit this extra time to perform any meaningful architectural design changes?


    The answer to that question is what I really want to know :(
    Wanted to answer some general questions about what I saw.


    Game was not shown behind closed doors at e3


    Really early


    Running on PS5


    I didn't see Scarlett so I can't directly compare


    Framerate wasn't always smooth....seemed to be in the 20-30fps range


    Open world and the scope was unbelievable. Never seen anything like it...far beyond Witcher/BOTW/HZD


    Even so, close up details were beyond anything I have seen before


    Ray Traced reflections....looks really impressive


    Dynamic destructable environments...this game is just WTF


    When I asked him about the SSD, he got visably nervous. Didn't want to talk about it at all.


    As good as it looks, I get the feeling this isn't a launch game, really early.


    That's all I can think of for now.. I should be able to get more information when I go back in October. I will see if I can share anything else at that time.
    World detail of The Order 1886+miles long draw distance+fully dynamic world destruction + Ray Traced reflections.



    It didn't look very polished like those nVidia/Unreal/Unity demos but at the same time beyond and I could imagine running on an Xbox One X or Pro


    So yeah, not like a current game, but not like a GDC demo either. You would have to see it yourself to understand because I can't quite articulate it properly because I can't compare it to anything else.
    Just a quick note to say that we were able to verify the poster above as someone who worked in the industry and would be able to access certain levels of information.


    That being said, it's near impossible to verify whether the above description is true or not, so please keep in mind that we can't verify whether all the information in each post is correct, just the details i posted above.
    Thank you so very much ZhugeEX. I really appreciate it.


    To all.


    There is no way I can prove to you whether or not I am full of shit or not. All of this information is from memory.


    If you don't believe at all, or prefer to take any "insider talk" as take it or leave it rumor, I fully understand and respect that...how could I not?


    That said, my personal integrity is a BIG DEAL to me and there are specific reasons for this....


    There was a LOT of drama during the early Gamefan days and, without going into too many details, there were a lot of lies spread about me which followed me throughout my career and ultimately led to me removing myself from the gaming industry, which still pains me to this day, decades later.


    And because of that, I can neither lie to myself or others. Credibility is so very important because it can be taken away from you in a blink of an eye...


    That said there are 3 things vital to me:


    My love of my fellow man/women

    My love of games

    My integrity


    In the end, have no fear of "running me off" because no matter what you say or do to me I will still love you all.


    I have been a gamer since 1977


    You are my people.
    So here is the deal.


    I specifically asked about general Teraflop performance about Scarlett and PS5.


    He said " from what I know, both final console should have double digits TF."


    .....keep in mind, this conversation was in late June, after AMD already outlined 5700 and 5700xt were shipping July 7th.....


    So then I specifically said."well that would mean greater performance than the new AMD Navi GPUs right?"


    ....he nodded his head yes!


    Now don't shoot me.....I'm just the relay guy... I am not sure how they can ship that much power in a console form factor/price...


    Don't @me
    Oh forgot to add...all these crazy graphics were on Unreal Engine
    That I don't know.....perhaps it was there own plug-in solution...idk...
    A long time friend of mine, who is a developer showed me an early next gen game.
    I'm just saying compared to GCN, the RDNA architecture is much more efficient per clock but the downside is it yields lower TF numbers.


    People will inevitably look at the final numbers and say "well it's not THAT much better than an Xbox One X" and I'm saying that is the wrong way to look at the TF numbers.
    IIRC, launch games for both systems are targeted for Holiday 2020


    PS5 and Xbox Scarlett will launch together again.....possibly in the same month like last time.
    No, actually I didn't. He played me a video of the demo off a USB drive.
    No it was real time. It was an internal studio milestone video.
    Look guys I don't know what else to say. I saw some cool stuff that I thought I would share. Yes there's some additional sensitive stuff that I can't share as well. There is no way I can yet prove anything yet without getting my source in trouble. You may view that as convenient,. You may not. No need for any hostility. I don't think I deserve that but whatever.


    If I disrupted the conversation in any way,I am very sorry..


    I am not a liar though....

    Update:


    The performance difference between the PS5 and Scarlett Part 1


    In terms of performance, they are essentially the same
    No, they are not that far apart.
    Yeah.

    Edit: Don't underestimate Microsoft Next-gen. In my opinion, they will have a very compelling gaming solution with Cloud Gaming and Scarlett along with their new studio acquisitions.

    Gotta go to work, I will talk later.

    PlayStation 5 backwards compatibility


    From what I understand, this is actually a big big deal to them and took years to get right.
    Yeah. PlayStation 5 was originally planned to come out next month. The software engineering needed to get BC 101% right was not progressing as fast as they needed.


    It is my belief that this is one of (but not the only) reasons Sony delayed PlayStation 5 to holiday 2020.


    They made this change in 2017.

    Impressions of a Next Generation Game targeting PC and Next Generation Consoles

    The demo I saw had the very best real time graphics I've ever seen. And what I mean by that is it looked like a real game you can play.


    Not some super polished UE4 or Unity technical demo that you would see at gdc.


    To me, there was no mistaking this for a current generation on PC or console.


    To be clear, in terms of scope, lighting and environment dynamics, RDR2 or TLOU2 aren't even in the same time zone as this.


    and yeah, it kinda was like a Shadowfall moment to me in that it seemed totally different from what I've been used to in the previous generation.


    Now granted, Framerate was maybe 25 to 30-ish and it was early, early,early. But I actually said out loud WTF when I first saw it.


    Hugely impressive.
    One thing I found really interesting was the quality of the shadows. I especially noticed there were some approx 2-3ft high bushes. When they were swaying in the wind they were casting moving shadows with fucking PERFECT detail. No shimmering or stairstepping at all.


    And I am talking about a bush with maybe 75-100 branches and 100s of leaves on it!

    Casting. Perfect.Fucking. Shadows.


    Keep in mind this was just a random, whateverthefuck bush!


    Also


    The overall picture quality was astoundingly solid....like it used some super duper AA.


    The game is full 2160p, but again, has no shimmering whatsoever. Just a really solid resolve to the graphics.


    I'm sorry I can't articulate all this better but it's really hard to explain for some reason.

    Games and Specs

    In the end, I really think that you guys will be way more impressed by the games than the specs.


    I was.

    The Next Generation game that Klee saw was the biggest open world they had ever seen in terms of scope.



    Image Quality


    No. It's not quite like CGI, but it way better than current stuff. I so hope that it shows up in a reveal so you can see it.

    I've only seen a multiplatform game running on PS5 development hardware. That said, it should look exactly the same on Xbox Scarlett

    Yeah. It's in the ballpark of that AC Unity flyover for sure.
    The game was running on a Development kit


    It was running on Navi-based hardware. So a current for the time PS5 development kit.(June 2019).

    The performance difference between the PS5 and Scarlett Part 2

    Honestly, and this is the last thing I will say about it, but I think some people are going to be disappointed at how similar PS5 and Scarlett hardware are.


    It's my belief ( As in I don't really know) that the biggest division will be Exclusive games, UI and services .
    . There are at least two more major revisions coming but I don't know the exact details of what that entails

    How this Next Gen game compares to Control on PC with RTX (Ray tracing)


    Control doesn't come close

    Not much talk of SSD benefits

    SSD was transparent enough I didn't notice it.


    I will say there was such a huge, huge diverse amount of unique assets that I am guessing it was that way because of the SSD?


    I cannot be sure because he absolutely, positively didn't want to talk about the SSD in any way whatsoever.

    The performance difference between the PS5 and Scarlett Part 3 - (October 2019) The PS5 is allegedly slightly more powerful than Xbox Scarlet


    PlayStation 5 is supposedly slightly more powerful than the Xbox Scarlett.


    Slightly.

    This is what I was told.


    I did not expect this.


    Please don't shoot the messenger.

    To be fair, Matt predicted Scarlett is more powerful and he is probably more connected than I am, so....


    That said, I was told that yes, PS5 is more powerful.

    No I can't really elaborate or go into more detail but.....yeah, my friend, who has been making games since the Dreamcast Era, and who is developing software for both Next-gen consoles said PS5 has the edge.


    I am about to go to the airport soon. I will talk to you guys later.

    New Dev Kits


    Well, I had lunch with my friend yesterday.


    At any rate, he didn't have much to say, sadly.


    He is still slaving away at the game


    Just got updated Scarlett dev kits recently and says new PS5 kits are due soon.


    He doesn't have the updated Dual Shock 5 yet.


    Game is tentatively scheduled to come out on Stadia too! (Personally exited about this)


    That makes four platforms so far (PC/Scarlett/PS5/Stadia)


    No current generation version planned


    He stressed that all the platforms have been easy to develop for, implying they have all the dev kits?


    Game still only has a working title and isn't due until 2021


    He read my posts on Era which shocked the shit out of me!


    I asked him his opinion on how much these next generation consoles will cost and he said he didn't know but he thinks they wont be cheap.


    He has not seen a final design of Scarlett or PS5 yet. He expect no one will until next year. I asked him about OX19 and he said "probably not" which makes me sad.


    Lastly I asked him which platform is most exciting to him and he said Stadia by a landslide.


    That's about all I can think of. Sorry I couldn't get more information....


    I tried.

    Performance difference between PlayStation 5 and Scarlet (November 2019)


    In response to is there a 30% performance difference:


    Hell no.


    They are virtually the same
    They both use Navi-based GPUs and are more powerful and feature rich than a 5700xt


    No GCN Teraflop conversion qualifiers needed.
    Historically, PlayStation SDKs have more memory but the same performance as retail units. I don't expect Prospero to be any different.


    With Microsoft it's a little bit more guesswork. Scorpio SDK was 6.6TF(they had 44 CUs IIRC) but even so, I don't expect major differences there either.


    BTW, both APUs have variable rate shading, I don't remember if I mentioned that before. I checked the Threadmark and I didn't see it anywhere
    Nah. It's fast, it just seems like Sony's SSD system (hardware /software)might be really, really fast.


    That said, don't worry about Scarlett. It's plenty, plenty powerful.
    Right now, game performance is better on PS5. I believe that is probably because PS5 development hardware and software are in a more advanced state. I fully expect Scarlett to close that gap once they ship more mature dev kits and software.

    Also

    It must be said, since software, not hardware, is a traditional Microsoft area of expertise, it's very possible that they could ultimately deliver more advanced DirecX development software in the end allowing games to run better on Scarlett even if the hardware is less capable.

    I don't know this to be the case, but the possibility can't be discounted.
    There is no double digit performance difference.


    Both PS5/Scarlett have double digit performance (I.e. over 10.0TF)

    Lockhart

    Lockhart is a codename for a rumoured next generation console from Microsoft, its rumoured to be a less powerful alternative to Scarlet, however Microsoft haven't revealed anything other than Scarlet, which they announced at E3 2019. This lead people to believe that it doesn't exist, so discussions about it died down.

    Discussions of Lockhart have popped up again, from these discussions, Kleegamefan commented on the matter where he said that he was informed that Lockhart is not a thing.


    I was specifically told Lockhart is not a thing.

    As in, games are not being made for a lower spec Scarlett.

    If Tom or anyone else has some credible information that states otherwise, I'm all ears.

    There has been more information about Lockhart from other sources: Kotaku - Sources: Microsoft Is Still Planning A Cheaper, Disc-Less Next-Gen Xbox

    This was Kleegamefan's response:


    (Matt's post for context)

    Two SKUs were a thing, and then they were not a thing, and then they were not not a thing, and then this week.

    Honestly Matt, I am as surprised as you are.

    I was absolutely told games are not being developed for Lockhart!

    Something changed for sure. Time to take the L and eat some crow on this.

    I'm going to try to find out more about this, though because something has changed recently.

    Potential release window and target platforms for the game Kleegamefan saw:


    2021


    Next-gen only


    PC/Scarlett /PS5/Stadia

    Xbox Series X could be 12 TF (NAVI)


    *wise fwom your gwave*


    OMG where are all the Xbox insider evangelicals to clarify all this


    NO it’s not GCN flops


    YES it’s Navi flops


    Xbox Series X performance is actually slightly ABOVE 12(Navi) TFs


    Xbox (Anaconda) Series X eats monsters (Scorpio) for breakfast


    The GCN architecture is HISTORY, y’all. MS/Sony only talk in terms of RDNA now


    Ay Carumba


    Now I’m actually leaving for sure.


    I will return to talk about Next gen again after the PS5 reveal.


    Buh-bye

    PlayStation 5 reveal in February?


    In February, there I said it.

    Possible Xbox Series X GPU Compute Unit Count? (Retail? Dev Kit?)


    Post made in response to GPU clock speed calculation

    1475MHz x 4096 stream processors x 2 = 12.083 teraflops



    Kleegamefan comments on Oberon leak

    He says that the specs he is aware of do not match the leak. If Oberon is related to the PlayStation 5, this could suggest that Oberon is an older design of the upcoming console.

    Well, can you confirm that what you know of specs do not match the GitHub Oberon leak?
    No. They do not match.
     
    Last edited:
    Dictator (Digital Foundry) - Ray-Traced Global Illumination examples
  • Dictator

    Digital Foundry
    Verified
    Oct 26, 2017
    2,517
    Berlin, 'SCHLAND
    Yes, I think the topic pertained to Uncharted 4's Nathan Drake's gameplay model rendering (IIRC).

    Thank you for the detailed breakdown. By the sound of it, Metro 2033 with RT enabled should have some of the finest looking NPCs during actual gameplay.
    They are probably not "the best" since the models themselves have that massive subjective quality to them. But they definitely do not lose as much of their splendor in shadow / in gameplay due to the RT GI. Here some screens:

    Voxel Probe GI


    RT GI


    Voxel Probe GI


    RT GI


    If you notice, the skin is evently lit with the Voxel Probe GI. It essentially glows in shadow and lacks much of the depth - also none of the sub-surface scattering is showing.

    RT GI on the other hand has 1/multiple directions of light hitting the face, and multiple shadows... not just directionless AO and directionless probes which just wrap "light" around the head.

    If someone posted that picture of Drake in Gameplay, in a scene where there is only indirect lighting in shadow, it looks very much the same.

    Notice how the light on drake in the above on the right wraps around and is monotone... it glows just like the Voxel Probe GI in metro :D
    So for next gen the questions are:

    1. Can RT be used for GI solution instead of how it has been conventionally advertised- reflective surfaces.
    2. If it proves too expensive, are there any conventional solutions to alleviate this issue (because it sounds a lot of like brute forcing some aspects of it like much higher resolution shadowmaps, might be a pyrrhic victory).
    1. I guess it depends how good AMD's RT solution is with very divergent rays, which is what RT GI is. It is more expensive on average than reflections on Turing. It also seems to benefit the most from Turings split int32/fp32 performance.
    2. If too expensive even RT reflections with a low roughness cut off help a lot to make models in shadows have a much more accurate specular response, it would help prevent the specular glow you seen in shadows, but the diffuse would still be wrong. If you go back to my BF V RT Reflections video, I show a scene on a beach with SSR + Probes vs. Probes vs Low Roughness Cutoff RT Reflections and all that wierd in-shadow glow is eliminated in the RT reflections.


    Even if RT GI is too expensive, RT AO helps a lot - or perhaps there are less expensive ways to have smaller RT GI like effects in a closer radius around the game cameras that have yet to be invented. The indirect diffuse lighting from Control is a localised form of GI that works pretty well and helps a lot for in-shadow objects. Cheaper than the RT GI in metro as well.
     
    Last edited:
    Dictator (Digital Foundry) - How game design can be impacted by next gen consoles.
  • Dictator

    Digital Foundry
    Verified
    Oct 26, 2017
    2,517
    Berlin, 'SCHLAND
    strange , should we not expect major changes in gamedesign given that we will have for the first time SSDs in Consoles?
    I think the first major changes to game design vs. what we saw this gen will be due to CPU advantages at the start of the generation. More AI, more complex physics, more unique objects on screen and such. That is a much more simple hardware metric to take advantage of than rewriting the entire way your engine loads data from disk and puts it into memory and then designing entire game systems around that. SSDs at the beginning will primarily be used to speed up game loading, making it pretty trivial. That is not a large change to game design though.

    I imagine most games will still be pretty traditional for a while - dedicated levels, dedicated cutscenes, dedicated front ends/uis for each area of the game (multiplayer/singleplayer/etc.). Not every game needs to be 100% seamless all the time / give the player full agency necessarily. The spider man camera thing that they demod on PS5 is just a test case. On ps4 the camera was hardware limited to a certain degree to a certain speed, faster than that speed, the game would probably stutter as it loaded in objects too slowly from disk. But how necessary is it for most games out there, honestly, that the camera move really rapidly? Spiderman/the player won't need to move that quickly!

    Only later on, and then, only for games that need it (for which many have no need for it), will some developers leverage the different way SSDs can do loading vs. before.
     
    OT10 Thread TItle Suggestions
  • OP
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    Mecha Meister

    Mecha Meister

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    Hey everyone! I hope you've all been doing well!

    OT10 closely approaches, a new thread will be created after this thread hits 20K posts!

    If you have any suggestions for a new thread title until then, please don't hesitate to post it! They'll be entered into a poll where you'll be able to vote for your favourite title!

    If you do make a suggestion, please write "OT10" clearly in the post like this, this is to makes it easier for me to search the thread!

    Thread title format: Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT10| -
     
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