Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread - MY ANACONDA DON'T WANT NONE

[Deleted member 23046]

The way I'm seeing it is that if the Anaconda is more powerful it won't matter Sony's first party games will make Anaconda look more like a garden snake....

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It's more a requirement than a chosen strategy to have two models. It's not made for a supposed neutral consumer but for all existing Xbox customers, to avoid another dilution of the Xbox playerbase during the transition. The retail situation and the direct sales parity or on third-party software got contracted like never since the One launch, despite the One S, UHD Blu Ray, One X, PUBG, RDR1/2 in 4K or Gamepass the brand hasn't reversed the steam but preserved the existing.

For me the two unknowns are the possible progression of costs and margins made or lost on hardware when talking about two, maybe three models and a distinct server model ; secondly, how will they promote the growth of the division this time, with numbers of units sold and the risk to be diminished when compared, or with some MAU measurements of "engagement" but if made of actual users having upgraded, the risk to only reveal a flat evolution (a Live user switching from a One S to a Lockhart won't count for two).

 

[Golvellius]

The way I'm seeing it is that if the Anaconda is more powerful it won't matter Sony's first party games will make Anaconda look more like a garden snake....

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The way I'm seeing it is that Gears, Forza Horizon and Ori alone will make PS5 look like a successor of the Ouya.

 

[Manixramz]

I don't see why.
Going from 12tflops to 5-6 would knock off about $100
Goimg from say 24gb ram to 16 would save a lot
Smaller ssd/HD would save somthing
Cheaper cooling solution etc

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to be able to run true next gen games at 1080p 60fps without holding down anaconda ,
u need at lease same processor, gpu and architecture setup and also SSD since it will play big role for engine upgrade.
this will cost more than 299 , that is why i think lockhart either will be streaming box(xcloud box) or on part with ps5 and anaconda will be very expensive box with huge price difference.
unless u want a 299 box that run better version of game from current gen ps4/xbox1x.

i totally can be wrong and it is only what i assume after i read all this rumors and ps5 mini reveal.

 

[TheUnseenTheUnheard]

thast great except navi APU are not ready till mid 2020 .unless its using vega

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Vega crossfire overclocked with water cooling. Lets go with that.

 

[Gamer17]

The way I'm seeing it is that Gears, Forza Horizon and Ori alone will make PS5 look like a successor of the Ouya.

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have we started with gamefaq type of posts here? and i mean both of you . can we not do this level console wars in next gen thread please ?

 

[Gamer17]

Vega crossfire overclocked with water cooling. Lets go with that.

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its a horrible gpu.pricey , power hungry which are 2 things u dont want in your console Also mediocre performance

 

[Monkhaus]

This dude's twitter sure reads like a fanboy regardless of his findings.

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Only for your knowledge, this guy was a part of the MisterXMedia clan:)

 

[TheUnseenTheUnheard]

its a horrible gpu.pricey , power hungry which are 2 things u dont want in your console Also mediocre performance

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But that launch advantage

 

[Gamer17]

But that launch advantage

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yes .honestly if the launch one year ahead of sony they might do x360 numbers again but the console will be sacrificed for this goal

 

[Golvellius]

have we started with gamefaq type of posts here? and i mean both of you . can we not do console wars in next gen thread please ?

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My post makes about as much sense as the one I quoted, that is correct. I wouldn't have posted if I didn't have to read posts like the one I quoted.

 

[Gamer17]

My post makes about as much sense as the one I quoted, that is correct. I wouldn't have posted if I didn't have to read posts like the one I quoted.

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yea his was also childish.let it go both of you and lets focus on discussing next gen.

 

[big_z]

The way I'm seeing it is that Gears, Forza Horizon and Ori alone will make PS5 look like a successor of the Ouya.

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Gears is coming out this holiday on xbox one. Expect a demo to drop during E3.

 

[foolishoptimist]

I don't see why.
Going from 12tflops to 5-6 would knock off about $100
Goimg from say 24gb ram to 16 would save a lot
Smaller ssd/HD would save somthing
Cheaper cooling solution etc

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The entire launch PS4 APU was around $100 for a $400 system. Not sure how how it'll compare sizewise to Anaconda, but I don't expect cutting out only a portion of GPU, RT cores and some RAM but leaving everything else makes $200 difference.

 

[Dave.]

Can ssd be used like RAM?

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A PCIe 4.0 NVMe could be about the same speed as DDR3-800 RAM, a PCIe 3.0 NVMe can cap out the bus speed and are already halfway there. This is in bandwidth, latency is a different kettle of fish altogether.

 

[itchi]

The entire launch PS4 APU was around $100 for a $400 system. Not sure how how it'll compare sizewise to Anaconda, but I don't expect cutting out only a portion of GPU, RT cores and some RAM but leaving everything else makes $200 difference.

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They've shown that they can save $50 by removing a disc drive so they might do that too. Also wouldn't Lockheart be using bad yields of Anaconda saving more money?

 

[Doctor Avatar]

Can ssd be used like RAM?

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What I would do is still have a standard HDD slot and stick in a 2TB HDD.

Have a 256Gb "cache" of super fast, NVME PCIE 4.0 SSD which developers can access like RAM.

The original Xbox had this, basically treated a portion of the HDD as slower RAM for developers.

That way when you start a game developers can fill the 256Gb of SSD, which has the same bandwidth as DDR3 RAM though increased latency, and use it for their streaming assets etc. Reduces the need to load things into the main ram, reduces the load times everything.

Initial loads when starting a game might be comparable to what we have today, but once the game is loaded with that amount of "slow RAM" developers would be able to do wonderful things.

Of course it also allows you to maximise both the benefit of an SSD drive and the vast storage offered by HDD, at the lowest possible price.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

Let me also be clear, a cheaper console is aimed at the people that are price sensitive, the people that have waited a year or two before making the jump to a new generation.

If the PS5 and Anaconda variant are close in power, and similar in price, then the high end becomes an issue of preference while the low end becomes a cheap way to enter a new generation. Microsoft can have a console of slightly less, equal or slightly more power than the PS5 to compete at that price while also telling people that if they do not want to spend too much to get in, there is something cheaper that will be there the whole generation. Not only that, that proposition gets better any time there is a price cut.

That is the simple gamble they are taking. On paper, it should appeal to most guys that are into third party games that sell like bonkers each year and the thinking to some degree is that if it does well, more and more people will flock around the product because that is what usually happens in gaming. A lot would also depend on how well they do when it comes to selling consumers into a service like Game Pass, again, something that would be appealing to people that want that cheap entry point with a huge catalogue of games to boot. In such a market, what the PS5 is priced at does not matter because there is something that competes with it directly, but nothing Sony can muster in the lower end to compete, and if need be, Microsoft can always lower the price $50 to try and achieve a better price discrimination model. But as I said, things are not always so simple or straightforward.

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...but my entire point was discussing a hypothetical scenario where PS5 and Anaconda are not similar in price vs if they are...

 

[Deleted member 30005]

Is it my imagination or did Lisa Su briefly comment last month how AMD were waiting for Sony and Microsoft to make their final choices and her teams would take it from there?

 

[Gamer17]

Is it my imagination or did Lisa Su briefly comment last month how AMD were waiting for Sony and Microsoft to make their final choices and her teams would take it from there?

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Apu for MS and Sony are most definitely not finalized .so sounds about right

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

The entire launch PS4 APU was around $100 for a $400 system. Not sure how how it'll compare sizewise to Anaconda, but I don't expect cutting out only a portion of GPU, RT cores and some RAM but leaving everything else makes $200 difference.

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Maybe that's why they are going with 4tflop. To get to that $299.

 

[Gamer17]

Maybe that's why they are going with 4tflop. To get to that $299.

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If it's 299 ,then yes it will be 4tf.but I still believe 8tf 399 console for Lockhart

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

What I would do is still have a standard HDD slot and stick in a 2TB HDD.

Have a 256Gb "cache" of super fast, NVME PCIE 4.0 SSD which developers can access like RAM.

The original Xbox had this, basically treated a portion of the HDD as slower RAM for developers.

That way when you start a game developers can fill the 256Gb of SSD, which has the same bandwidth as DDR3 RAM though increased latency, and use it for their streaming assets etc. Reduces the need to load things into the main ram, reduces the load times everything.

Initial loads when starting a game might be comparable to what we have today, but once the game is loaded with that amount of "slow RAM" developers would be able to do wonderful things.

Of course it also allows you to maximise both the benefit of an SSD drive and the vast storage offered by HDD, at the lowest possible price.

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Yes this give the advantages of ssd (very fast storage) and of HDD (big storage and cheap)

I wonder how it would work though for streaming open world games which stream from the HD?

Wouldn't initial load time be longer because the game files would need to transfer from the HDD to the SSD everytime you start a different game?

 

[Doctor Avatar]

Wouldn't initial load time be longer because the game files would need to transfer from the HDD to the SSD everytime you start a different game?

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This is the only downside I can think of, but when that will shave literally 100+ dollars off the price of manufacture (for equivalent storage) personally I think it would be worth it. Once you are into the game the load times would be the same as with an SSD, or should be. That leaves you with 100+ dollars to spend on RAM or whatever else, or a 100 dollars cheaper console.

Looking at the prices of SSD drives now compared to HDDs I don't really see how Sony can offer a large SSD at a reasonable cost in the new consoles without using that solution, and games will only balloon in size with the new consoles - likely 100Gb+ per game for AAA titles (already there with RDR2 this gen), so having limited storage would be much worse than this gen.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

If it's 299 ,then yes it will be 4tf.but I still believe 8tf 399 console for Lockhart

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I don't see the point in doing a 8tflop $399 lockhart, it's to close to Ana if Ana is 12.

When not do 3 lol

$299 4tflop
$399 8tflop
$499 12tflop

A lot this depends on what PS5 ends up being.

 

[Phil me in]

Won't an entry level 4TF console hold back both the high end model and the ps5 if devs are mandated to cater for this console that is even weaker than the X gpu wise.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

And it would partially come from a misunderstanding. MS only stated that they intend to have the strongest console on the market.

I can already see Era burning down...

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AFAIK, MS only said the aim to "set a performance benchmark" next-gen. That's a pretty wooly statement that doesn't really mean anything.

They haven't really said anything else about power since then. It's the die-hard xbox fans that have perpetuated this narrative of MS having the most powerful hardware next-gen, and this has been further fed by media personalities like Brad Sams and post by ERA insiders like hmqgg (whether intended or not) and Klobrille.

Pretty much this. Everyone gets to scale up, absorb each other's risks, and costs down as the volume demanded proves out the process.

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Definitely.

AMD is already using ~400GB/s HBM2 chips for almost two years now (Vega 56 uses 410GB/s HBM2 and Vega 64 uses 483.8GB/s HBM2) and they pay over X2 the price of GDDR6 while they could get 100% of their chips from the low-binned batch because their volumes are very low. I don't see how Sony will be able to do that with 15+ million GPUs a year, they will drink-up all the low binned chips in a blink of an eye and have to use well-binned chips for most of the machines that they make. I just don't buy the HBM2 rumor, GDDR6 will cost them half the price, use a cheaper controller and it's a more mainstream product.

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You missed the point of the post entirely. Vega chips will use a mere fraction of the lower spec HBM2 chips available. The focus for Sony -- who would look to sign supply contracts 2-3 years in advance (i.e. more than enough time to bring on new capacity) -- is new production capacity; which would have been cost prohibitive for foundries to invest in without large volume orders from customers like Sony.

There's probably a good chance that with HBM production moving to HBM3 in 2020 for their HPC customers, Sony will be looking to get HBM3 in PS5, as within 18 months from when HBM3 starts shipping, most of the demand will be for HBM3, thus Sony being able to leverage that by taking lower spec binned parts means only great things for their console. Also, from a system design perspective, HBM3 can simply drop in, the same way the double density GDDR5 chips did with PS4 with the late confirmation of supply for Sony and late change leading to the announcement at the PS Meeting.

If MS is looking to use HBM too, it makes the situation even better. Higher volume orders overall will justify the aggressive investment in new production capacity.

Won't an entry level 4TF console hold back both the high end model and the ps5 if devs are mandated to cater for this console that is even weaker than the X gpu wise.

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Yes. (Despite what some in here will try to argue)

 

[DriftingSpirit]

AFAIK, MS only said the aim to "set a performance benchmark" next-gen. That's a pretty wooly statement that doesn't really mean anything.

They haven't really said anything else about power since then. It's the die-hard xbox fans that have perpetuated this narrative of MS having the most powerful hardware next-gen, and this has been further fed by media personalities like Brad Sams and post by ERA insiders like hmqgg (whether intended or not) and Klobrille.

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Which is what I was basically getting at.

Whether it is deserved or not, power is much more expected from MS than Sony. The stuff with the X, that article that has like a ~50 page thread here, etc... Both will obviously be powerful but MS has more room to get "backlash" (which will basically be limited to irrelevant forum wars but yeah) if they don't deliver.

 

[Alandring]

The way I'm seeing it is that Gears, Forza Horizon and Ori alone will make PS5 look like a successor of the Ouya.

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A console with one of the best exclusive ever made (Towerfall is one of the best local multiplayer game ever) ?

 

[Dave.]

AFAIK, MS only said the aim to "set a performance benchmark" next-gen. That's a pretty wooly statement that doesn't really mean anything.

They haven't really said anything else about power since then. It's the die-hard xbox fans that have perpetuated this narrative of MS having the most powerful hardware next-gen, and this has been further fed by media personalities like Brad Sams and post by ERA insiders like hmqgg (whether intended or not) and Klobrille.

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The actual wording is even more wolly than that!

"The same team that delivered unprecedented performance with Xbox One X is deep in to architecting the next Xbox consoles, where we will once again deliver on our commitment to set the benchmark for console gaming."

 

[DriftingSpirit]

"unprecedented performance" makes the context rather clear.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

The actual wording is even more wolly than that!

"The same team that delivered unprecedented performance with Xbox One X is deep in to architecting the next Xbox consoles, where we will once again deliver on our commitment to set the benchmark for console gaming."

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Yeah, we're basically into a game of internet chinese whispers.

if you ask 100 users on ERA what Spencer said about next-box being the most powerful console, I bet 95% would get it wrong.

 

[Phil me in]

Yes. (Despite what some in here will try to argue)

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This is what I was afraid of. It is quite obvious games made just for the X or pro would be a difference beast if there were no base console to cater for. With an entry level 4TF model that HAS to be catered for, is just going to hold back everyone else.

So we are going to be stuck with current gen graphics for another 7-8 years. Guess the higher spec consoles can enjoy it in 4k...

 

[MrKlaw]

A PCIe 4.0 NVMe could be about the same speed as DDR3-800 RAM, a PCIe 3.0 NVMe can cap out the bus speed and are already halfway there. This is in bandwidth, latency is a different kettle of fish altogether.

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Jesus. Latency shouldn't be such an issue because you wouldn't literally be using it like ram - you'd be predicting assets you'll need (eg that you're moving towards in a streaming world).

Basically the faster you can transfer the assets into ram the smaller the cache you need and the longer you can wait before transferring them across. So more of your ram becomes usable for other critical game stuff rather than needing to be reserved as a cache

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

This is what I was afraid of. It is quite obvious games made just for the X or pro would be a difference beast if there were no base console to cater for. With an entry level 4TF model that HAS to be catered for, is just going to hold back everyone else.

So we are going to be stuck with current gen graphics for another 7-8 years. Guess the higher spec consoles can enjoy it in 4k...

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Well, don't be dismayed yet. There's a very good chance the 4TFlops rumour for Lockheart is inaccurate.

 

[Dewin]

I don't get the lockhart 4TF 299,- 1080p console. At all. There is a Ps4 Pro model that is 4.2TF and that can do "4K". I don't get the 'lets go for the 1080p market" thinking. Not at that price.

 

[VallenValiant]

Won't an entry level 4TF console hold back both the high end model and the ps5 if devs are mandated to cater for this console that is even weaker than the X gpu wise.

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That assumes Xbox had enough pull to demand that they be the base console.
There is always a chance that third party game developers decided that they would just make everything around the PS5, and that anything they could fit in a 4TF console, they might as well make it compatible for PS4/XB1s instead and have it being a cross gen title.

Your worst fears is only relevent if the 4TF console actually has commercial success. And that is far from guaranteed.

 

[TheRaidenPT]

I don't get the lockhart 4TF 299,- 1080p console. At all. There is a Ps4 Pro model that is 4.2TF and that can do "4K". I don't get the 'lets go for the 1080p market" thinking. Not at that price.

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They could go for 350 with a bit more performance if they wanna have a "base" console... I just don't think they should aim at 1080.

 

[itchi]

This is what I was afraid of. It is quite obvious games made just for the X or pro would be a difference beast if there were no base console to cater for. With an entry level 4TF model that HAS to be catered for, is just going to hold back everyone else.

So we are going to be stuck with current gen graphics for another 7-8 years. Guess the higher spec consoles can enjoy it in 4k...

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But the argument doesn't make any sense because all 3rd party games and Microsoft exclusives are going to be designed to be run on 4TF GPUs on PC so they are already "held back".

 

[Thorrgal]

But next gen base xbx (lokhart)is for sure weaker than base ps5 .by almost around 100%-300% weaker .and that will be the main selling Xbox .

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Indeed. Not only that, but MS has right now the most powerful and the cheapest console, and the gap is not only not closing, but widening.

Sony is outselling MS by 2.5:1 at least, worldwide, this 2019, so in any case I don't see power being the deciding factor next gen.

Aside from obviously games, installed base will be huge this transition. Most people will be locked into their current ecosystem, specially with BC confirmed.

 

[Kiekura]

Hardware power is the constant factor in a closed box. software is the factor that is more dynamic.
Last cosole launch, I dont think people were pissed because they couldnt play Resogun on their xboxes... they were pissed more because their call of duties, their assassin's creeds and their battlefields played in worse fidelity.

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No. They are pissed they had to paid more for box that was less powerful than the cheaper one and the cheaper one was the one who advertised itself as games games games, instead of tvtvtvtv Kinect.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

But next gen base xbx (lokhart)is for sure weaker than base ps5 .by almost around 100%-300% weaker .and that will be the main selling Xbox .

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So will a Navi 3060 on PC
But the people who are happy with that level of experience will be fine with it.

Most people don't care about 4k or even 1440p, I think more people care about 60fps, but 4k has had more marketing behind it.

 

[SgtCobra]

Most people don't care about 4k or even 1440p, I think more people care about 60fps, but 4k has had more marketing behind it.

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The general public outside forums and whatnot don't, the majority of people still want shiny graphics and marketing terms like " Real 4K!!"

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

The general public outside forums and whatnot don't, the majority of people still want shiny graphics and marketing terms like " Real 4K!!"

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Only because 4k has had more marketing.

 

[SgtCobra]

Only because 4k has had more marketing.

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60fps is not marketable enough, especially if the alternatives are also doing it (albeit at a higher price). If Microsoft wants to use that against stupid (but very effective) stuff like "high definition 4K graphics" then they're facing an uphill battle.
Look at what Sony's been doing with the PS4 Pro with their marketing, it's not even native 4K yet people eat it up.

 

[Gamer17]

So will a Navi 3060 on PC
But the people who are happy with that level of experience will be fine with it.

Most people don't care about 4k or even 1440p, I think more people care about 60fps, but 4k has had more marketing behind it.

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True .I was just making a point to his claim that base power is the only thing that matters and whoever doesn't have it will be upset.i was not confirming what he was saying .I was just giving an example to show his stance doesn't make sense

 

[gremlinz1982]

...but my entire point was discussing a hypothetical scenario where PS5 and Anaconda are not similar in price vs if they are...

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If that were to happen, then the same reasoning applies.

Sony would not want to compete at the highest end because they think that price would be an issue thus go for a middle of the road product to attract people in.

Microsoft keeps the high end for the enthusiasts, and the low end for price discrimination. The exact same reasoning applies. You are pricing the product at the price you think it can sell......the lower powered model is simply there to try and undercut Sony on price. That is the sole reason for its existence.

 

[one]

What happens if MS is mum about RT come E3 Xbox 2 reveal?

 

[Thorrgal]

If that were to happen, then the same reasoning applies.

Sony would not want to compete at the highest end because they think that price would be an issue thus go for a middle of the road product to attract people in.

Microsoft keeps the high end for the enthusiasts, and the low end for price discrimination. The exact same reasoning applies. You are pricing the product at the price you think it can sell......the lower powered model is simply there to try and undercut Sony on price. That is the sole reason for its existence.

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And it's a bad idea. The exact same scenario we have now, except people will already be tied up and will have even less of a motivation to jump ships, as most people buying next gen consoles are already tied up into Sony's ecosystem.

They only true differentiating factor would be the Streambox, but for whatever reason they're not launching with it, which doesn't bode well for said Streambox. Either the technology is not ready, or the market isn't

 

[Bradbatross]

If that were to happen, then the same reasoning applies.

Sony would not want to compete at the highest end because they think that price would be an issue thus go for a middle of the road product to attract people in.

Microsoft keeps the high end for the enthusiasts, and the low end for price discrimination. The exact same reasoning applies. You are pricing the product at the price you think it can sell......the lower powered model is simply there to try and undercut Sony on price. That is the sole reason for its existence.

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Yea, I think it's a great strategy that's going to win back a lot of gamers who jumped ship to PS4.

 

[Gamer17]

Yea, I think it's a great strategy that's going to win back a lot of gamers who jumped ship to PS4.

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Isnt that the same scenario right now ? mS has the cheapest and most powerful consoles and their sales for last year has been their lowest ever doing around 7 million in 12 month span.on top of that many people like me are anchorned to a platform due to stupid digital games .we shall see how it plays out